Fred Frailey writes: " Au revoir, Amtrak! It's official Fred Frailey Au revoir, Amtrak "

[samfp1943]

Fred posted this about three days ago....Many posters here, have both read and thought about the published comments of the new head of Amtrak... Re:"...the lack of PTC will doom Amtrak Services.."[paraphrased]

There is another Thread on the Passenger Topic, but in order not to co-opt that Thread and its comments; I am starting this Thread here.  Fred Frailey brings a unique set of perspectives to his commentary, and this is an area of extreme interest around here.

I would suggest that before commenting here, one should go and read Fred's  Blog/Column...  My personal hope is that this is not one of those 'throwing the baby out with the bath water circumstances.'

IF PTC cannot be implemented...Where do we go from that point? 

Does the whole passenger rail system just get 'flushed' away?

The comments on Fred's column frrom the various heads of Amtrak's current host railroads, seem to offer a glum future for AMTRAK? 

From the beginning when it was cobbled together, Washington Pol's treated it like the proverbial 'red-headed' step child.  Only providing enough money to bandage the bleeding but not enough to stop that bleeding...

Ideas?

 

 

[BaltACD]

Fred's tongue was firmly in his cheek.  That having been said, if Anderson and Amtrak follow through on their threats, the comments he attributes to the Class 1 leaders are not that far off from what their real response would be.

[mudchicken]

(Don't think the Washington "swamp" will choke on eating crow anytime soon...and crow right off the shelf is in ample supply)

[aegrotatio]

It's a veiled threat. Business will continue as usual.

[oltmannd]

Anderson left Amtrak an "out". For the situation where PTC is mostly deployed but a waiver for 2020 completion has been granted, he said, "...what additional safety protections are appropriate to reduce risks? "

So, Amtrak just has to decide, on it's own, what else, if anything, needs to be done to keep the trains running.  It could be anything at all.  From having an inward facing camera in the cab, to having a supervisor in the cab in non-compliant territory, to nothing at all.  

It's all up to Amtrak, not the host road.

[oltmannd]

...but that being said, I think the purpose of Anderson's statement was to put everyone - from Conrgress to the FRA to the host roads - on notice that Amtrak is very serious about the safety.  The devil will be in the details.

[runnerdude48]

Of course if the employees involved in all of these accidents, fatal and nofatal, had done their jobs correctly we wouldn't be having this discussion.  The best safety device is the operating employee.  I think the union employees don't really care and know that the union will back them up no matter how many people are killed.  Some even keep their jobs.  If adequate punishment was doled out these incidents would soon stop (or greatly diminish).  This is a problem automated (or semiautomated) trains could stop.

[Anonymous]

runnerdude48

The best safety device is the operating employee.

I think history shows that this safety device is not really reliable. People never will be 100% perfect, failure is within our nature intensified by working conditions in the railroad industry.
Regards,Volker

[SD70Dude]

runnerdude48

I think the union employees don't really care and know that the union will back them up no matter how many people are killed.  Some even keep their jobs.  If adequate punishment was doled out these incidents would soon stop (or greatly diminish).  This is a problem automated (or semiautomated) trains could stop.

Wow.  Just wow.  Is that you Hunter, I thought you were dead.

Think about what you just said, you are accusing an entire workforce of willful, malicious, criminal negligence.  I am one of those workers, and I do not appreciate being told that I am a negligent, potentially murderous criminal.  

In my experience threatening and disciplining people does not make them work safer.  It just adds an additional level is of stress in the workplace, which can make people devote less than their full attention to the task at hand, because they are worried about what will happen if they don't get the work done fast enough.

I am also a Union rep, and in many "investigations" I see the company bullying employees, making accusations without providing evidence and even just plain lying.   That discipline you are salivating about is handed out by a kangaroo court.

Having said that there are those lazy or somewhat incompetent employees who make me wonder how they still have a job.  But I have never met someone who is so unconcerned with safety that they would be willing to cause accidents and/or fatalities in exchange for not having to get up out of the chair.

I think you should take your anti-union rants somewhere else.  Out.

[cx500]

I would also add to SDS70Dude's response that similar carelessness can also be found in non-union employees, probably in about the same ratio.  It exists even at the management level as was shown in a collision in Prince George some years back.  And that person was protected by a quick transfer instead of the more appropriate harsh discipline.

Even if the trains run autonomously with no crews, the possibility of human error still remains.  Somebody has to program all those microprocessors and update as required.  Somebody has to design, connect and maintain the necessary wiring out in the field. 

John

[jeffhergert]

VOLKER LANDWEHR

 

 

runnerdude48

The best safety device is the operating employee.

 

 

I think history shows that this safety device is not really reliable. People never will be 100% perfect, failure is within our nature intensified by working conditions in the railroad industry.
Regards,Volker

 

And these automated devices, etc.  Who designs them? Who is involved in manufacturing the componets?  Who is involved in the installation and maintenance of such things?  But evidently many, maybe most, seem to think those involved in the above are somewhat more reliable than people who work out in the field.

For runnerdude.  The union has to protect it's members to the best of it's ability, whether those in trouble deserve it or not.  I know a few cases where the local chairman probably agreed the person he had to represent deserved to be terminated.  I don't know if you actually work for a railroad or not.  Most railroads, especially those that are unionized, have their management do their best to try to fire people.  There have been some division level management who have come right out and said they feel employees work better when they are in fear for their jobs.  We've had a division reorganization (my home division was divided between two adjacent divisions) and one of the old division managers now under the new jurisdiction told a co-worker they need to do more testing.  They want more failures at all levels; minor ones, critical ones (where 3 could lead to termination) and more license decertifications.  It's not just the railroad I work for, either.  All the major carriers go through these periods.  Who's being the most excessive in handing out discipline can be gauged by the availability of job insurance.  At times, the compamies that provide such insurance won't issue new or increase coverage on existing policies on some railroads.

Remember the event that was the basis for the movie "Unstoppable"?  The engineer who got off to avoid running through a switch had been previously disciplined and was trying to avoid more discipline.  Wouldn't it be ironic if the guy who left a switch open was so busy looking over his shoulder that he didn't give his entire focus on the task at hand?

Jeff 

[Anonymous]

jeffhergert

And these automated devices, etc.  Who designs them? Who is involved in manufacturing the componets?  Who is involved in the installation and maintenance of such things?  But evidently many, maybe most, seem to think those involved in the above are somewhat more reliable than people who work out in the field.

For me it is not a question if PTC will fail some day but when, as with all man-made things. But that shouldn't be a reason not to install technical safety devices like e.g. PTC.

The current signalling systems depends on the alertness of the engine crew, so any aspect enforcing system would have helped.
Regards, Volker

[BaltACD]

runnerdude48

Of course if the employees involved in all of these accidents, fatal and nofatal, had done their jobs correctly we wouldn't be having this discussion.  The best safety device is the operating employee.  I think the union employees don't really care and know that the union will back them up no matter how many people are killed.  Some even keep their jobs.  If adequate punishment was doled out these incidents would soon stop (or greatly diminish).  This is a problem automated (or semiautomated) trains could stop.

Hunter speaks from beyond the grave.  Don't hold back now that you think Unions are the cause of all incidents.

[selector]

[SD70Dude]

cx500

I would also add to SD70Dude's response that similar carelessness can also be found in non-union employees, probably in about the same ratio.  It exists even at the management level as was shown in a collision in Prince George some years back.  And that person was protected by a quick transfer instead of the more appropriate harsh discipline.

How could I forget about good ol' Boom-Boom!  As one of Hunter's handpicked favourites he was quickly sent to Chicago after this happened to hide him from the RCMP until things cooled down.  The incident report is quite the read:

http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2007/r07v0213/r07v0213.pdf

Sometime later Jamie was promoted to General Manager, based first in Edmonton and later in Winnipeg, where he ended up being fired for embezzlement. 

But even that hasn't ended his career, today he is a CSX VP!  Some people are made of teflon:

https://www.csx.com/index.cfm/about-us/company-overview/csx-leadership/jamie-boychuk-biography/

I like how they left "Remote Control Operator" off his resume...

[Miningman]

The guys in the white cowboy hats only win in the movies, in real life the bad guys win often. 

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

cx500

I would also add to SDS70Dude's response that similar carelessness can also be found in non-union employees, probably in about the same ratio.  It exists even at the management level as was shown in a collision in Prince George some years back.  And that person was protected by a quick transfer instead of the more appropriate harsh discipline.

Even if the trains run autonomously with no crews, the possibility of human error still remains.  Somebody has to program all those microprocessors and update as required.  Somebody has to design, connect and maintain the necessary wiring out in the field. 

John

"+1"  For a current real-life example of this happening - and still unresolved - read this column:

http://ten90solutions.com/keep_calm_andhey_wait_a_minute 

Or this ancient joke:

 http://aviationhumor.net/fully-automatic-airplane-piloting-system/# 

- PDN. 

[243129]

runnerdude48

Of course if the employees involved in all of these accidents, fatal and nofatal, had done their jobs correctly we wouldn't be having this discussion.  The best safety device is the operating employee.  I think the union employees don't really care and know that the union will back them up no matter how many people are killed.  Some even keep their jobs.  If adequate punishment was doled out these incidents would soon stop (or greatly diminish).  This is a problem automated (or semiautomated) trains could stop.

 

Amtrak portrays a clear and present danger to the traveling public with their inadequate vetting and training procedures and nowhere is it more evident than in the recent rash of operator error disasters.
How many more lives will be lost due to the arrogance of Amtrak management who historically have ignored input from their now dwindling veteran operations workforce? If one were to quiz today’s operations employees one would be astounded at what they don’t know.
The warning signs have been there and Amtrak has paid no heed despite repeated pleas from their veteran workforce to examine and revamp their training regimen.
Here are some of the warning signs Amtrak ignored:

June 3, 2011 Amtrak train collides with Chicago Metra train 12 hurt.

October 13, 2011 Amtrak San Joaquin collides with Coast Starlight 17 injured.

November, 2013 Amtrak had a New York to Washington Regional train accept the wrong route and wander six miles in the wrong direction to the end of the line on a foreign railroad.

May 12, 2015 Amtrak train 188 derails due to excessive speed 8 killed, 200 injured.

April 3, 2016 Amtrak train hits company backhoe killing 2 and injuring 39.

July 6, 2016 Amtrak train arrives Charlottesville 1 hour and 45 minutes late after accepting wrong route towards Richmond.

December 12, 2017 Amtrak Cascades train 501 derails killing 3 and injuring 77.

All of the above are attributed to human error yet Amtrak still made no changes to it’s vetting and training procedures.
The public outcry for Positive Train Control is not the be all to end all. It creates dependency and erodes what skills the engineer (operator) might possess.
Positive Train Control can and will fail and a good percentage of engineers will become ‘lost’. Couple that with Amtrak’s inadequate vetting and training procedures and you have a prescription for disaster, a ‘perfect storm’ if you will.
Nothing precludes proper training and Amtrak seems incapable of providing it.
What will it take for Amtrak to review and assess it’s hiring and training procedures? More death and injuries? Amtrak is in dire need of oversight from experienced operations personnel. Something must be done soon or there will be more disasters.

[ccltrains]

I doubt that any employee, management or union, would be careless enough to purposely cause an accident.  There is not an engineer who is not devistated after hitting a car or pedesterian who trespasses or ignores a crossing signal.  The vision of this will be with him until he dies.