GrampWould it be at all possible to create a Swiss watch, by the minute, culture in US railroading? Might that provide a true competitive edge?
It's been tried, and/or done. It takes a lot of coordination.
The New York Central had "Operation Sunset" wherein making scheduled connections was a key. Of course, that was in the days of loose-car railroading.
As I recall, railroads have tried getting trains out at a specific time, regardless of what's on the drawbar. This does little to help efficiency, however, as a car that's too late to make the departure either leaves on the next train (if there is one) or the next day. Which is of little consolation to the customer who's expecting his/her car at a certain time.
Short, frequent trains can help, but now you're talking more crews and locomotives. You can see the practice at work at the Mierlo-Hout webcam - rarely do you have to wait more than a few minutes for another train to pass.
If you watch US railcams, you can go hours without seeing a train. And when one does pass, it may be a 12,000 footer...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Would it be at all possible to create a Swiss watch, by the minute, culture in US railroading? Might that provide a true competitive edge?
While your managers are doing that and pounding themselves on the back here is what your customers are doing. Hello Mr trucking company excutive I need reliable service to an from this location on this schedule what will it cost me. OTR company about 2.50 a mile per load. Your customer goes who do I send this contract to so it can be signed and get away from the railroads. When your customer service department can not even give a day that the car will arrive only a week it gets frustrating for a customer. My boss is no longer told which 2 day window his cars will arrive on it is which week in the month we may get them from the BNSF. NS is getting just as bad. He is thinking about closing his SIT yard and buying the trailers and trucks needed to haul it ourselves.
Firelock76Does common sense even exist anymore? It seems to be in short supply with those running American businesses nowadays. Most seem to be proving the truth of the old saying "They're too smart for their own good!"
I've seen that behavior happen so often that I no longer doubt its veracity.
Holding certain alleged measures of operating efficiency as sacred or being obsessed with them is not new. For example:
John Kneiling used to harp about this - esp. the first one - too.
- PDN.
zugmannand they have to send a second crew to go get it
Actually, that may be the third crew. The first crew, by the time the train is back together after removing a bad order and solving some locomotive issues, gets it out of town a ways to a long siding. Now they sit for four hours waiting for several opposing priority trains, since they are all too long for the next several sidings. Move on another fifty miles and repeat. And don't forget the taxis required to relieve each crew.
But you definitely save a "train start" so your management bonus is secure.
[quote user="samfp1943"]
[quote user="rdamon"]
Saw a BNSF monster eastbound on the Hesperia webcam yesterday had it set up in a 3+2+1 configuration.
[/quote]
At least once a week there is one of those 3-2-1)or 2 on rearDPU's through here? They seem to be on Thursdays after 2PM) They{BNSF} seems to favor the route through Wellington-Wichita-Newton and EB towards KC area [Possibly, lighter gradients?].
Sam, BNSF has designated Wellington-Mulvane-Wichita-Newton to Ellinor for eastward movement and Ellinor-Augusta-Mulvane-Wellington for westward movement. There is no grade of significance on either route. When there are problems on one route (for a significant time) the other route can handle movements in either direction.
But they're saving a crew! Well, until there isn't room for the mega giant train in the yard, so it blows up outside and they have to send a second crew to go get it.
But I think that's a different budget.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Agree 100% with Firelock...it is insanity. Something very very bad will come out of this folly.
They take out the double or triple track just about everywhere and now extending and constructing sidings of great length enough so that it was better to retain the original multi track in the first place. Chasing their own tails...literally.
A four mile long freight train is insanity. There, I've said it and I'm glad.
And for what? To save a few miserable dollars on crew salarys? It'll be a lot cheaper to pay the salarys than to pay out for the lawsuits Electroliner posited may very well happen.
By the way, the Union Pacific once had a Big Boy pull a freight train five miles long (I don't know how far, it might have been only a few feet) but they had the sense back then to do it one time only, and as a PR stunt.
I even have doubts about two mile long trains, considering there's only two crewmen nowadays. How'd you like to hike two miles down the line looking for a problem car? I'm sure some have had to do it. Go with a four mile train and they'll have to store a motor scooter on the lead unit, or at least a trail bike.
Does common sense even exist anymore? It seems to be in short supply with those running American businesses nowadays. Most seem to be proving the truth of the old saying "They're too smart for their own good!"
I wonder how long until some city or town has a train block all its crossings and cause some calamity (a fire burns down something more than a house and people die, emergency vehicles unable to respond to crimes, etc) and sue the railroad. What the time limit for trains blocking crossings is being tested and I suspect that it will be found to be bad PR for the RR's. When the CN took over the EJ&E and started to run more and longer trains around Chicago, there were some agreements made to minimize the blockage of crossings. I don't think the RR's are going to pay for a lot of grade separation projects in the future. But the advent of four mile long trains may find the breaking point. RR's PR flacks push the idea that the RR wants to be a "GOOD NEIGHBOR" but when they block crossings for long times, that idea is moot. In the open prairies of Nebraska and Wyoming, (UP) Arizona and New Mexico (BNSF) there are not many high density towns and they may be able to get away with it. This will be interesting to watch it play out but I suspect there will be pain.
I have only caught a couple that were WB [KC-Augusta-Mulvane/Wellington, and Westbnd] My guess is that the Flint Hills on that last route do not favor those long train operations(?).
Gramp Roughly how long would it take to put a 50 car train together, and get underway, compared to a 250 car train?
Roughly how long would it take to put a 50 car train together, and get underway, compared to a 250 car train?
Putting the power on a short train and testing the EOT takes under an hour in my experience, at which point it is ready to depart.
A long manifest in the 10,000' to 14,000' range regularity takes 3-4 hours, and may be delayed further if the road crew has a lot of bad orders to set out, or is required to switch the DP unit into the middle of a track. Meanwhile the long train is blocking the lead and/or main track, delaying other trains that are otherwise ready to arrive or depart the yard.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SOP--Stupid Operating Pratice lives on
greyhoundsWe make progress by trial and error.
Railroads wil never admit error. Ever.
If it doesn't work, it must be the fault of labor.
So far, nothing's changed. 15000' is still the maximum length for manifests.
Shortly after the talk of longer trains started, a few changes happened. The fuel conservation throttle limitations, only having enough power on-line to drag over the hills and use of energy management systems all were (for the time being) discontinued. Word is they want velocity up. That they were close to losing a large intermodal contract because of service complaints. (Complaining about paying premium prices but not getting premium service.)
One of the through manifests still can run up to 15K. It's been smaller more often (under 9000') than it used to be, but I think that's due to traffic levels. The one manifest that used to leave NP up to 15K and then set out the rear half (sometimes the rear 3/4) at my home treminal usually runs only with through cars. The "short" set out cars usually running as a manifest extra out of NP. (Tomorrow's estimated train is back to being a big one. 13K with a 160 car set out.)
I suspect they're gathering numbers to compare current operations with the past fuel conservation practices. To see if it's cost effective to move freight in a timely manner. I just hope they won't cherry-pick data to validate a preconceived conclusion. Namely, protecting a low operating ratio.
Jeff
Hey, Jeff, what is the status of UP’s long, long trains efforts in your neck of the woods?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
JPS1 greyhounds Do all appropriate analysis and planning. If that shows a good result, give it a try. If it doesn't work, quit doing it. If it does work, continue doing it. We make progress by trial and error. Spot on! I cannot think of many activities, if any, where the initial practices did not have to be adjusted. And sometimes what seemed like a good idea in theory failed in practice and had to be abandoned.
greyhounds Do all appropriate analysis and planning. If that shows a good result, give it a try. If it doesn't work, quit doing it. If it does work, continue doing it. We make progress by trial and error.
Do all appropriate analysis and planning. If that shows a good result, give it a try.
If it doesn't work, quit doing it. If it does work, continue doing it.
We make progress by trial and error.
Spot on! I cannot think of many activities, if any, where the initial practices did not have to be adjusted. And sometimes what seemed like a good idea in theory failed in practice and had to be abandoned.
As long as a certain percentage makes it with no excessive problems, it will be deemed a success. What that magic number is, I don't know.
The other day, We put together a 14,525 foot manifest. The train was on 4 tracks and we were lucky, no bad orders to set out. We started about 1045pm and finished up about 130am. We had a few crossings blocked for almost the entire time. A few others between 30 to 60 minutes. For about 20 minutes we had every crossing in town that we could block, blocked. And we only had a couple of minor problems. The time involved was more for the conductor's travel than the fixes themselves. I had to have him operate the manual release box on an automatic interlocking (BNSF crossing) but that gave me the chance to tell him in person (instead of over the radio) to check the angelcock ahead of the DP. We had a utility brakeman helping who made the joint and was to cut in the air. He forgot one step which the conductor took care of.
With a couple of other delays, which resulted in a blocked crossings, we didn't make it in on our HOS. The train itself for a manifest wasn't too bad to run. Out of 244 cars, there were only 35 with cushioned, long-travel drawbars. That makes the difference, especially when strung out through the sags and over the humps.
Deggesty ChuckCobleigh BaltACD ...handling a 4 mile long train would be a snap... Isn't that what train handling is supposed to avoid? Careful, Chuck; you're on Carl's ground.
ChuckCobleigh BaltACD ...handling a 4 mile long train would be a snap... Isn't that what train handling is supposed to avoid?
BaltACD ...handling a 4 mile long train would be a snap...
Isn't that what train handling is supposed to avoid?
Careful, Chuck; you're on Carl's ground.
Undulating grades in the 'flatlands' is what gives slack it's snap!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Johnny
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
MP173Better carry a book in the car or something to keep you occupied.
And we think we have a problem with people running the gates now...
Better carry a book in the car or something to keep you occupied.
Cant imagine a 20,000 (4 mile) UP in the western suburbs of Chicago on a restricting signal.
Ed
If grades (and I am not talking about mountain grades) were as continuous as some people like to think they are - handling a 4 mile long train would be a snap as the in train forces would be easily manageable. However, even the 'flatlands' are far from flat - the flatlands undulate - 10 feet here, 8 feet there, a sag, a knoll - meanwhile the in train slack is doing it's dance - run in here - run out there at multiple points within the length of the train all at one time - many of them uncontrollable even with multiple DPU units in the consist.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.