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2nd Brightline fatality proves that Americans are too stupid for high speed rail unlike Europeans

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Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, January 23, 2018 5:11 PM

Deggesty
This story is almost five years old--look at the dates on the responses.

That was part of the war between the Catskill Mountain Railroad and the local town supervisor, who is bound and determined to see the railroad gone.  

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, January 23, 2018 4:59 PM

Murphy Siding

 

 
CandOforprogress2

Boynton Beach are considering drafting people and dump trucks to block the railroad right of way untill they stop running the trains.

http://www.watershedpost.com/2013/train-wars-kingston-parks-dump-truck-railroad-track

 

 

 

I think you're kind of making that up. Read the article you posted for more accurate info.

ps. Once the insurance carrier on that dump truck sees the article, someone will probably be looking for a new insurance provider. Who wants to insure against the liability someone is willing to take on in a stunt like that?

 

 

This story is almost five years old--look at the dates on the responses.

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, January 23, 2018 4:45 PM

CandOforprogress2

Boynton Beach are considering drafting people and dump trucks to block the railroad right of way untill they stop running the trains.

http://www.watershedpost.com/2013/train-wars-kingston-parks-dump-truck-railroad-track

 

I think you're kind of making that up. Read the article you posted for more accurate info.

ps. Once the insurance carrier on that dump truck sees the article, someone will probably be looking for a new insurance provider. Who wants to insure against the liability someone is willing to take on in a stunt like that?

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Posted by CandOforprogress2 on Tuesday, January 23, 2018 1:55 PM

Boynton Beach are considering drafting people and dump trucks to block the railroad right of way untill they stop running the trains.

http://www.watershedpost.com/2013/train-wars-kingston-parks-dump-truck-railroad-track

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, January 23, 2018 12:28 PM

Euclid
 
samfp1943
Sometime back, around here there was a YouTube video of a Chicago Metra station that had three tracks through the station; the outer tracks were each on platforms and the center track was a 'passing track'. At at least one end of the station there was a pedestrian crosswalk across all three tracks. It of course had the appropriate warning signs about 'watching for the trains'. I think i remember that the scenario was computers racing to cross the tracks to get to the parking lot after deboarding from their commuter train, and failed to see the express, at speed on the center track, and the result was at least one pedestrian was hit by that express train.

 

It seems that distraction may have played a role in that accident.  The back story I read said that the woman was walking with her lawyer who was representing her in a divorce.  They were walking to meet her husband for a meeting between the three of them.  Their view was blocked by other standing trains, so they may have assumed that the crossing signals were activated for those standing trains.

 

When they heard a train horn, the lawyer walked faster to get across ahead of the train, even though the train was not yet within his sight.  The woman, seemingly in reaction to her lawyer, also speeded up her walking.  So both of them appeard to intend to beat the train.  Since the lawyer had sped up his walking first, he pulled ahead of the woman, so when she saw this, she walked even faster to catch up with him and not be left behind by being cut off by the train. 

The lawyer was taller than the woman and nearer to the approaching train, so it seemed like she may just have deferred to his judgment in beating the train, and did not feel it was necessary for her to look and verify that they could make it.  She seemed to be focused only on walking fast to keep up with her lawyer.

At the last instant, they passed the standing cars, and the lawyer saw the approaching train coming very fast.  He realsized they could not make it, so he abruptly stopped in his tracks.  But the woman apparently did not look and verify the danger like the lawyer did.  So she kept going and stepped right into the path of the train and was killed. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZYDc_yR0qA

 

 

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, January 23, 2018 12:13 PM

BaltACD
If Brightline ever operates at High Speeds (150 mph +) crossing separation will have to happen

Even 125mph operation here requires strict grade-crossing separation, and I believe this applies to foot as well as vehicle crossings.  I do not know whether strict fencing or continuously-supervised surveillance of potential trespass is indicated for that speed.  It is a little 'moot' for the Brightline operation as their fastest equipment is only rated up to that threshold.

I do not think Brightline actually intends continuous operation at the high speeds permitted by its equipment, even on the 'new' ROW in the highway median area.  But that is inherently grade-separated with further barrier to casual pedestrian crossing provided by the Interstate lanes of traffic, so anyone 'struck and killed' in that location would have to be trying hard, probably well past the Darwin Award criteria, perhaps even past newsworker sensationalist bias.

I am afraid the solution in Boynton Beach is the same as in so many places elsewhere -- cameras and a ticket blitz with very high consequences (both financial and legal; I'd establish consequences at least equal to those for driving while impaired) until people form strong reflexes against doing it.  With a significant chunk of the proceeds earmarked for a relief fund for PTSD for trainmen affected by the trespassing...

That still doesn't fix the suicide problem, though, and that appears if anything to be getting worse.  There aren't any good technical answers at HSR speed.

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, January 23, 2018 12:01 PM

ruderunner
i might need a refresher view but iirc she was on her cell phone.

If this was Mary Wojtyla's accident, no, she was not.  But she was bounding with impatience, with her attention directed elsewhere, just like many phone users nowadays.

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Posted by ruderunner on Tuesday, January 23, 2018 11:33 AM

i might need a refresher view but iirc she was on her cell phone.

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Posted by switch7frg on Tuesday, January 23, 2018 10:06 AM

Oops  It would seem that (lady)  cured her own stupidity  by the aformentioned event.

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, January 23, 2018 9:27 AM

samfp1943
Sometime back, around here there was a YouTube video of a Chicago Metra station that had three tracks through the station; the outer tracks were each on platforms and the center track was a 'passing track'. At at least one end of the station there was a pedestrian crosswalk across all three tracks. It of course had the appropriate warning signs about 'watching for the trains'. I think i remember that the scenario was computers racing to cross the tracks to get to the parking lot after deboarding from their commuter train, and failed to see the express, at speed on the center track, and the result was at least one pedestrian was hit by that express train.

It seems that distraction may have played a role in that accident.  The back story I read said that the woman was walking with her lawyer who was representing her in a divorce.  They were walking to meet her husband for a meeting between the three of them.  Their view was blocked by other standing trains, so they may have assumed that the crossing signals were activated for those standing trains.

When they heard a train horn, the lawyer walked faster to get across ahead of the train, even though the train was not yet within his sight.  The woman, seemingly in reaction to her lawyer, also speeded up her walking.  So both of them appeard to intend to beat the train.  Since the lawyer had sped up his walking first, he pulled ahead of the woman, so when she saw this, she walked even faster to catch up with him and not be left behind by being cut off by the train. 

The lawyer was taller than the woman and nearer to the approaching train, so it seemed like she may just have deferred to his judgment in beating the train, and did not feel it was necessary for her to look and verify that they could make it.  She seemed to be focused only on walking fast to keep up with her lawyer.

At the last instant, they passed the standing cars, and the lawyer saw the approaching train coming very fast.  He realsized they could not make it, so he abruptly stopped in his tracks.  But the woman apparently did not look and verify the danger like the lawyer did.  So she kept going and stepped right into the path of the train and was killed. 

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, January 23, 2018 7:22 AM

SALfan
Don't know if this applies to Boynton Beach or not, but several small towns were apparently enraged when they found out Brightline wouldn't be stopping in their little town and have fought the train viciously ever since.  They haven't been overly concerned with accuracy or the truth while waging their battle - some of their claims have been laughable. 

The thought process in S. Florida about Brightline is that it should stop in every beach town along the way and still have a 45 minute run between Miami and West Palm Beach.  The reality is that at the speed of light that would still be a tough order.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, January 23, 2018 6:58 AM

samfp1943

    I think i remember that the scenario was computers racing to cross the tracks to get to the parking lot after deboarding from their commuter train, and failed to see the express, at speed on the center track, and the result was at least one pedestrian was hit by that express train. 

This appears to prove that the computers are really taking over.Whistling

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Posted by SALfan on Monday, January 22, 2018 11:39 PM

Don't know if this applies to Boynton Beach or not, but several small towns were apparently enraged when they found out Brightline wouldn't be stopping in their little town and have fought the train viciously ever since.  They haven't been overly concerned with accuracy or the truth while waging their battle - some of their claims have been laughable. 

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Posted by jeffhergert on Monday, January 22, 2018 10:26 PM

samfp1943

 

 
Deggesty

Time and again, people here have been warned about the significance of the crossing gates and lights where TRAX (the UTA local transit) crosses streets--and still occasionally someone is hit. I have no statistics in my mind. The warnings include the statement that as long as the lights are flashing the crossing belongs to TRAX, not to the traffic on the street or sidewalk. It is not just the people in Boynton Beach who are not aware. At least, the local politicians are not as  irrational as those mentioned.

 

 

 

  Florida and Utah are not the only areas that seem to have the market cornered on pedestrian stupidity; where trains, railroads and commuter trains are a part of the picture.

   Sometime back, around here there was a YouTube video of a Chicago Metra station that had three tracks through the station; the outer tracks were each on platforms and the center track was a 'passing track'. At at least one end of the station there was a pedestrian crosswalk across all three tracks. It of course had the appropriate warning signs about 'watching for the trains'.

    I think i remember that the scenario was computers racing to cross the tracks to get to the parking lot after deboarding from their commuter train, and failed to see the express, at speed on the center track, and the result was at least one pedestrian was hit by that express train. 

Probably, CSHaveRR (CARL ) can clear up my memories of that video. He may even know when and how it happened?   It seems that when people who have their own agenda and needs tend to throw all caution to the winds while thinking their problem insulates them from normal cautions.

 

 

 

Downer's Grove IL 1991.  There are versions on youtube.  Some stop short, some show the woman being struck.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, January 22, 2018 10:25 PM

CandOforprogress2

Love the local journalist take here....These gangsta Brightline trains are out of control here in Miami jumping off of tracks and assulting and killing random people..SoapBox

 

 

The Bicyclist STRUCK AND KILLED by a Brightline train Wednesday has been identified as 51-year-old Jeffrey D. King of Boynton Beach, according to the Boynton Beach Police Department. ,US Senator Bill Nelson in a letter, asked Transportation Secretary Elaine Chao to improve rail crossing safety. Florida was in the top 10 nationwide in train involved deaths in 2016.  Boynton Beach Commissioner Joe Casello wants Brightline to halt its service altogether until safety is improved.
 

Nothing new here, the media blames SUV's for defective operators all the time.

And blames guns for what criminal do, and so on.

If you get in front of a moving train - at any speed, did we really need you in the gene pool?

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, January 22, 2018 10:14 PM

Murphy Siding
Our state has similar goofy signs: "Limited sight distance ahead". You don't say.

I kinda like "Thickly Settled," as seen in MA.  We're in a city.  Ya think?

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Posted by jeffhergert on Monday, January 22, 2018 10:14 PM

tree68

 What gets me is that if a pedestrian ignored a red light at a street intersection and got hit, no one would blame the truck driver who hit him...

 

The city I live in (admittedly small by most people's standards) has a few streets downtown that have marked pedestrian crosswalks mid-block.  There are signs stating that pedestrians have right of way (state law) at these crosswalks.  So, while at the intersections there are walk/don't walk signals, mid-block one could legally walk right out into traffic.  (I wouldn't recommend it and most who use them wait, at least until they can tell drivers are going to stop for them.)  It just strikes me as a strange set-up.

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Posted by samfp1943 on Monday, January 22, 2018 9:42 PM

Deggesty

Time and again, people here have been warned about the significance of the crossing gates and lights where TRAX (the UTA local transit) crosses streets--and still occasionally someone is hit. I have no statistics in my mind. The warnings include the statement that as long as the lights are flashing the crossing belongs to TRAX, not to the traffic on the street or sidewalk. It is not just the people in Boynton Beach who are not aware. At least, the local politicians are not as  irrational as those mentioned.

 

  Florida and Utah are not the only areas that seem to have the market cornered on pedestrian stupidity; where trains, railroads and commuter trains are a part of the picture.

   Sometime back, around here there was a YouTube video of a Chicago Metra station that had three tracks through the station; the outer tracks were each on platforms and the center track was a 'passing track'. At at least one end of the station there was a pedestrian crosswalk across all three tracks. It of course had the appropriate warning signs about 'watching for the trains'.

    I think i remember that the scenario was computers racing to cross the tracks to get to the parking lot after deboarding from their commuter train, and failed to see the express, at speed on the center track, and the result was at least one pedestrian was hit by that express train. 

Probably, CSHaveRR (CARL ) can clear up my memories of that video. He may even know when and how it happened?   It seems that when people who have their own agenda and needs tend to throw all caution to the winds while thinking their problem insulates them from normal cautions.

 

 

 

 


 

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, January 22, 2018 9:25 PM

dubch87

This is the same state that has road signs that say "HILL BLOCKS VIEW". I laughed for five miles after passing those signs.

 

Our state has similar goofy signs: "Limited sight distance ahead". You don't say.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, January 22, 2018 8:16 PM

So if the city wants more safety-- install a coordinated traffic signal saying walk until crossing activated then flashes "don't walk $1000 fine "  if any of these crossing already have traffic ligh signal coordination then just cost of wiring and signs.

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Posted by dubch87 on Monday, January 22, 2018 4:04 PM

This is the same state that has road signs that say "HILL BLOCKS VIEW". I laughed for five miles after passing those signs.

   

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Posted by Norm48327 on Monday, January 22, 2018 3:35 PM

Karma at it's best.

Those who deserve shall receive.

Norm


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Posted by tree68 on Monday, January 22, 2018 1:51 PM

Deggesty
I doubt that any such idea would enter their minds.

That would imply that the incidents aren't the fault of the railroad, which is clearly not on their agenda.

The point with the truck is that people would blame a pedestrian for walking out in front of it, but if they walk out in front of the train, it's the train's fault...

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, January 22, 2018 1:33 PM

tree68

 

 
Euclid
If drivers mistake grade crossing signals as meaning stop and proceed if it is clear to do so, that leaves it up to the driver to determine how close the train has to be in order for it not to be clear to cross.  Surveys here show that a large percentage of drivers believe that this is the meaning of flashing lights at grade crossings.  They believe the signals are advisory rather than regulatory; the same as crossbucks at passive crossings.   

 

If there's a horizontal bar with red and white stripes blocking your way, maybe that's an indication that you shouldn't go past it?

I know, there are crossings without gates, but with lights - they exist in my old home town.  But the crossings in question in these two fatalities had gates.

What gets me is that if a pedestrian ignored a red light at a street intersection and got hit, no one would blame the truck driver who hit him...

 

In some instances, it may possible for the truck driver to swerve and avoid hitting the pedestrian. But, at a railroad crossing....

 

Another thought: would the Boynton Beach city fathers consider drafting people to stand at the Brightline crossings to warn pedestrians not to try to cross the tracks when the gates are down? I doubt that any such idea would enter their minds.

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, January 22, 2018 11:53 AM

Euclid
If drivers mistake grade crossing signals as meaning stop and proceed if it is clear to do so, that leaves it up to the driver to determine how close the train has to be in order for it not to be clear to cross.  Surveys here show that a large percentage of drivers believe that this is the meaning of flashing lights at grade crossings.  They believe the signals are advisory rather than regulatory; the same as crossbucks at passive crossings.   

If there's a horizontal bar with red and white stripes blocking your way, maybe that's an indication that you shouldn't go past it?

I know, there are crossings without gates, but with lights - they exist in my old home town.  But the crossings in question in these two fatalities had gates.

What gets me is that if a pedestrian ignored a red light at a street intersection and got hit, no one would blame the truck driver who hit him...

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Posted by selector on Monday, January 22, 2018 11:45 AM

Does Sen W. Nelson also want road traffic stopped in Miami until the latest pedestrian fatality is thoroughly investigated?   Bring in the horses.

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Posted by CandOforprogress2 on Monday, January 22, 2018 11:39 AM

I believe that British Rail has miles of fencing on there right of ways. Funny people will stop for red traffic light but not a blinking railroad crossing with gates?

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, January 22, 2018 11:05 AM

Time and again, people here have been warned about the significance of the crossing gates and lights where TRAX (the UTA local transit) crosses streets--and still occasionally someone is hit. I have no statistics in my mind. The warnings include the statement that as long as the lights are flashing the crossing belongs to TRAX, not to the traffic on the street or sidewalk. It is not just the people in Boynton Beach who are not aware. At least, the local politicians are not as  irrational as those mentioned.

Johnny

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Posted by Euclid on Monday, January 22, 2018 10:54 AM

VOLKER LANDWEHR

Accidents happen in Europe too. In 2016 it were about 140 accidents with about 30 fatalities on DB track in Germany alone.

On lines with speeds above 100 mph grade crossings are forbidden.

In a representative survey with 2,000 peoples in Germany 25% thought the red blinking light has the same meaning as yellow on a traffic light.
Regards, Volker

 

That is an interesting interpretation.  I could see where some might think the blinking red at a grade crossing means that same as a blinking red at a traffic signal.  In the U.S. that would mean stop and proceed if clear to do so, just like a stop sign.  Solid yellow on a traffic signal is advance warning that it will soon change to red.  Blinking yellow at a traffic signal means yield, so no stop is required unless there is opposing traffic. 

If drivers mistake grade crossing signals as meaning stop and proceed if it is clear to do so, that leaves it up to the driver to determine how close the train has to be in order for it not to be clear to cross.  Surveys here show that a large percentage of drivers believe that this is the meaning of flashing lights at grade crossings.  They believe the signals are advisory rather than regulatory; the same as crossbucks at passive crossings.   

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, January 22, 2018 10:48 AM

The news reports on the latest two fatalities indicate that the deceased had gone under/around the gates.  Since they are pedestrians, four-quadrant gates will have no effect.  

I don't know how to combat that, and I'm sure the railroad is equally perplexed.  

Nobody wants to wait for a mere minute.  Just sixty seconds and the train will be nothing but a memory.  But, no, they can't wait.

All these politicians (and other critics) need to go sit at a crossing for a while and watch people ignore the existing warning signals.

Many of the other rail fatalities in Florida over the past few years appear to have been suicides.  It's really hard to combat that in the moment.

LarryWhistling
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