Reuters article about shipping interests starting to study reactivation of alternate means of navigation. eLoran is mentioned but there are other ones as well. Not familiar with the eLoran system but had very good results when standard Loran used for over water navigation. Had better results with digital Loran using auto track electronics in aircraft. Many fishermen also used it as well..
GPS based PTC could sink rapidly if the signals are spoofed. The US does interferrence tests about every other month at different locations usually along one of the coast military locations. Get aviation NOTAMS announcements whenever the tests are planned.
Our general public does not realize how dependent every day life depends on GPS. Credit car transactions are one big spot. Almost all gas stations use a GPS based system to authorize your charge. Can you imagine how many persons do not have a current road map in their cars ?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-shipping-gps-cyber-idUSKBN1AN0HT
EDIT. Just received another centered at St. Marys, Ga, CSX and NS best check times for any PTC testing in Georgia, SC, Alabama, and Florida. See map ---- Map says just above ground level but ???
https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2017/Aug/FFC_17-04_GPS_Flight_Advisory.pdf
Travelling across USA this summer I relied exclusively on road maps..printed maps, in both book form, fold out and flip chart...much better than GPS, but then I'm set in my ways. Also much easier to "infer" the geology as USGS maps can be had at the same scale and showing all roads as well.
By stopping at rest stops and restuarants it is much easier than taking your eye off the road to read some screen or listen to some silly voice.
Also much easier to get the big picture, plan things and anticipate what is to come.
Guess I'm out of date, but not changing the way I do it.
My only complaint with current 'user' GPS is that it doesn't react to road closed detours very well, always trying to take you back to the original route that is closed until you have traveled far enough for it to calculate an entirely different route to the selected destination.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD My only complaint with current 'user' GPS is that it doesn't react to road closed detours very well, always trying to take you back to the original route that is closed until you have traveled far enough for it to calculate an entirely different route to the selected destination.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Even the current dLoran proposals are not fully suitable for PTC; their resolution is around 5 meters at best, which won't resolve track centers reliably. It does have adequate resolution to keep most trains from colliding, and the added penetrance of the RF signals used (MUCH higher ERP at different wavelength) has promise for anticollision and "civil" area safety systems, and approach to locations that can be given fixed beacons.
I am watching with some interest to see whether cost-effective differential solutions or an overlay in 'necessary' areas will give the necessary resolution for 'GIS-driven construction' or multitrack 'absolute position' PTC.
I do not think eLoran will have a counterpart to the GPS Z-axis (vertical height, as decoded) as the tower height is minimal compared to the effective range, and much of the research into new technology is in reducing the size of the emitting array. That becomes significant when you want a good differential signal as a baseline for things like semiautonomous drone operation in severe conditions, or an altitude 'check' to resolve conflicts on bridges and so forth, which represents a severe difficulty for a pure 2D (even spherical) geometry mapping system. I continue to think that overlays and metadata represent a reasonable solution to the whole basic class of problems, but that is far from a foolproof or robust system.
Note the tacit importance of a navigation system that can be completely shut down and Faraday-caged against the threat of EMP even from repeated exoatmospheric strikes, and then be brought up in a comparatively short time to reasonable efficiency.
Miningman Travelling across USA this summer I relied exclusively on road maps..printed maps, in both book form, fold out and flip chart...much better than GPS, but then I'm set in my ways. Also much easier to "infer" the geology as USGS maps can be had at the same scale and showing all roads as well. By stopping at rest stops and restuarants it is much easier than taking your eye off the road to read some screen or listen to some silly voice. Also much easier to get the big picture, plan things and anticipate what is to come. Guess I'm out of date, but not changing the way I do it.
Johnny
Havent't gotten a AAA 'Trip-tik' in over 30 years. Used to get them whenever I was traveling to a new area. Now, between the Interstate system and GPS one really doesn't need maps to get to most places.
Now to get to some specific address that you have never heard of - GPS beats maps hands down.
AAA, CAA up here, Trip Tiks are fabulous.
Never had a problem getting to a specific address. I like counting the numbers and reading the signs and if you make a mistake it's fun getting a bit lost. So what! You just see more and circle around.
Most folks use their GPS and think they are some kind of modern day genius. The only thing I use a satellite in my vehicle for is the radio.
When I've had enough of talk, I go to the 70's, tired of that go to the 90's, then British Invasion stuff, still like Howard Stern. Most of the time I listen to nothing, which is best.
Quick Q for you BaltACD- if you had not retired before EHH came on do you think you would still have your position, or in that location, or been forced out? Seems like a lot of good senior people are getting "fired" in droves. Would or could you have survived?
MiningmanQuick Q for you BaltACD- if you had not retired before EHH came on do you think you would still have your position, or in that location, or been forced out? Seems like a lot of good senior people are getting "fired" in droves. Would or could you have survived?
My office, Baltimore, will be in Jacksonville starting September 1, 2017. After 51.5 years including 26 in dispatching I had all the disrespect I cared to experience. Since a 'two bit boss' effectively stole my seniority in 2013, with the expectation that I would 'bump' another dispatcher he had a dislike for - I crossed him up and went to the extra list - stalled around for 3 years without getting 'qualified' on a particular desk as part of the requirements to become qualified is to have 20 uninterupted days training on the desk. My other qualifications never permitted me to have 20 uninterupted days. Plus the 'two bit boss' violated several rules in the ATDA agreement and I ended up getting about $50K in penalty payments for his transgressions. As a ATDA covered Dispatcher I would have to be fired for cause after the formal investigation procedure for some form of rules violation. Had is stayed in the non-contract employment path - I am certain I would have been 'down sized' 10 or 15 years ago. The time I decided to retire was MY decision, not the company's.
At the time I retired I fully expected the offices to be recentralized - I just didn't think it would be so soon. I am glad I got out when I did, my 401K got both the Trump Bump and the EHH Bump and I converted most of it into a stable interest account to minimize market fluctuations. RRB Check and my non-contract company pension show up in my account every 1st of the month.
Timing IS everything.
BaltACD Havent't gotten a AAA 'Trip-tik' in over 30 years. Used to get them whenever I was traveling to a new area. Now, between the Interstate system and GPS one really doesn't need maps to get to most places. Now to get to some specific address that you have never heard of - GPS beats maps hands down.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
You still need a map, even with GPS. All GPS tells you is where you are on the surface of the earth, not where there are roads, bridges, etc. to get from where you are to someplace else. Maps provide that info.
As for TripTiks... Severla years ago, my Aunt asked me to drive her from Indiana to Florida and she provided the TripTiks for route directions. She was quite proud that they included detours for expected road construction areas. "It is all the latest maps and information.", she bragged.
I had my laptop PC with me, plugged in (cigarette lighter to 120V inverter), and running DeLorme Street Atlas, but I let her tell we where to turn... she did NOT like the computer on the seat between us and kept putting a blanket over it and tucking it in around the sides ("I don't like computers." she mumbled).
I kept pulling it out from under the blanket so it would not over-heat!
Unfortunately the TripTiks missed a major problem in Nashville, Tenn. When we approached the place where we would switch interstates (I65 to I24) there was a BIG electronic sign that was alternately flashing, "BLASTING, expect LONG delays" and "Find another route". We could see a long narrow "parking lot" ahead of us with pedestrians out wandering around the parked cars.
TripTiks only show intersections with MAJOR cross roads and no "parallel" routes. My Aunt was at a loss.
I got off the interstate and found on Street Atlas that US 41 was a nice parallel route to Murfreesboro, where we got back on a nearly empty I24 (everybody else was in that "LONG delay").
The GPS component just set the map on the computer to show where we were. I tried to get Street Atlas to recalculate a route completely around the construction zone, but it kept trying to get back to the interstate in the middle of the LONG zone. So I just ignored its instructions and drove the route I wanted, letting GPS update the display to show where I was.
We used the computer for the rest of the trip.
A couple of months later, my Aunt informed me that she had just purchased a computer for use at home and she (at age 90+) is still using it for e-mail and she keeps the books for her church, and a small business one of my cousins operates.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
I
Perhaps there is a case generally for 'out of date' technology in certain circumstances. Old, 'dumb' technologies cannot be hacked unlike modern 'smart' ones.
An illustration of this is the reintroduction of old-fashioned typewriters for typing secret reports, as apparently the Kremlin and the Indian government have both done. To get hold of the contents of these reports would need labour-intensive, high-risk espionage of the traditional John Le Carre variety, rather than a nerd with a laptop in an office on the other side of the world.
In Nature simple organisms co-exist with complex ones, and indeed the evolutionary battle between things with no brains (bacteria, viruses) and things with very big, complex brains (i.e. us) is by no means over. Organisms with brains can suffer mental breakdowns and are vulnerable to software errors - things with no brains are immune to these threats.
For systems such as electricity networks or rail networks I wonder if it would be desirable to isolate, physically, electronic systems controlling the network from other electronic systems including of course the internet. This would introduce a certain amount of 'dumbness' but avoid the risk of hackers closing down the network or otherwise causing trouble.
(1) Autonomous GPS will always have issues with positional accuracy which can be made worse by the position of the "birds" you are working with. Narrowing down the error of position the way PTC is trying to do will ALWAYS require testing with HARN station checks, etc. (nothing new on this with surveyors, we just throw out the "flyers" and move on. PTC on the other hand relies on no "flyers" in the system, thus the reliability checks.)
(2) Been discussed here, how some I-zombies' total capitulation to GPS/GIS in their black box technology gets them in trouble, especially in crossing situations. Using the wrong technology for the wrong purpose gets you in trouble (garbage in = garbage out)...Blind faith in a man made/programmed system can get you in trouble deep. The GIS programmers are most certainly the weak link here.
(3) there have been two attempts by communications people to "steal" GPS bandwith for additional market share of voice/data/cell service capabilities. Much bigger issue than the original post's concern.
IslandManFor systems such as electricity networks or rail networks I wonder if it would be desirable to isolate, physically, electronic systems controlling the network from other electronic systems including of course the internet.
The great NE Blackout of 1965 happened long before the internet.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimmThe great NE Blackout of 1965 happened long before the internet.
Yes, but in part that was a specific result of NOT having reasonable electronic network control over devices and systems in the grid...
What he's hinting at is a long-established discussion to at least try to keep SCADA-based systems and the like immunized against outside interference or hacking. The Stuxnet 'experience' showed the lengths to which some groups would go to cause catastrophic effects on industrial control systems. There have been ongoing discussions relating to the protection of medical systems with inherently 'network-enabled' device configuration and programming.
On the railroad side, I think the security discussions for the specific internetworking involved in PTC have been extensive, and specific issues of isolation, different standards, and obfuscation have certainly been discussed.
But the several day 2003 blackout was in the day of the internet, and that raises questions.
I do not profess to have the answers because I have not researched whether or not the utilities involved were using the net for communications between them or if they had a private network set up between them both for communications and monitoring the grid.
In my opinion, reliable electric service is necessary in this day and age and should include both data and electric service backups. Major data centers, including banks and other financial institutions are dependent on having both a power source, hence huge standby power generators and an off-site backup, again with emergency generators, are major considerations. (That from a friend who's company specializes in building those data centers.)
Wouldn't it make sense for something as important to our way of life in the Twenty First Century for the major utilities to have their own dedicated (and protected from the outside) to the best state that current technology can achieve?
Even a regional grocery store chain had protection against loss of grid power at all of their stores and during the 2003 blackout suffered no loss of refrigerated or frozen products.
Our local electricity provider seems to have more problems after a storm than does the one to the west and north of us. The latter build to a higher standard and make sure trees that could affect power lines are trimmed more frequently. An outage map of my state is enlightening.
Norm
GPS is used as a timing source for cell phones and data networks. Issues with timestamping of stock trades could cause some serious problems.
The EU, China and India have launched or are planning to launch their own GPS systems.Most newer cell phones can use these networks if enabled by the carrier.
Good going Balt. You played it well. If management, would play by the book they wrote, things would be so much better. But some have to throw their weight around because they can and sometimes, the company has to pay for it. Makes it tough on some employees who want to do a good job. Glad you are enjoying retirement.
Well my classroom is state of the art computer lab technology. All new, constantly updated. Each student has 2 large monitors and I have the same plus 2 huge TV's facing them, most classrooms mounted in the corners but mine are on a rolling platform by request, so I can roll'em away. I can project anything required onto their monitors or they can plot with installed AutoCAD, Vulcan, GemCom. ArcGIS, plus receive visual and print aids during a lecture... or, problematically, goof off and play on Facebook, (there are some controls and limits). So it's not like I'm a yesterdays man or any kind of Luddite. Far from it.
However...when travelling thousands of miles across 2 countries and taking mostly secondary routes at that, I want my paper maps exclusively in as many reasonable formats as possible, 90year old Grandma's and laptops notwithstanding. Geological Survey (USGS) maps as well, some topographic maps for key areas of interest, but thats just me.
With all the talk of driverless vehicles in the future I foresee a time when this kind of serendipitous trip may be almost impossible to do. Nothing but plastic money that would further limit you and raise questions as to why? And what is the purpose? There is a very dark side. Tracking you in many ways, making your business their business. Hope we can overcome that somehow, but it looms. Worse yet, following generations may be welcoming to these limitations. Brave New World indeed. Feudalism the goal? On the horizon?
Now the only new thing and conflict I have experienced is taking along my iPad. Of course a person is going to take along their smart phone as well. You see I'm writing this now on the forum, and have been following and contributing all along, whereas I should be "out there" talking to people and exploring things more than I do. That part is "new". Have done it before but net connections these days are far more widespread and "automatic".
A person convinces themselves "whats 20 minutes" but it uses up hours and hours in reality..every time! If you tell yourself it's only a matter of discipline then you likely are just fooling yourself.
These are complex issues really. Societal changes.
schlimm IslandMan For systems such as electricity networks or rail networks I wonder if it would be desirable to isolate, physically, electronic systems controlling the network from other electronic systems including of course the internet. The great NE Blackout of 1965 happened long before the internet.
IslandMan For systems such as electricity networks or rail networks I wonder if it would be desirable to isolate, physically, electronic systems controlling the network from other electronic systems including of course the internet.
Electricity networks can fail for reasons other than hacking into control systems, in particular if part of the network is overloaded and closes down, leading to overload of the remaining network, which then closes down ("cascade failure" - the same underlying principle can also result in traffic gridlock on road networks operating at close to maximum capacity).
The possibility of hackers breaking into control systems is an additional source of insecurity.
Norm48327 schlimm The great NE Blackout of 1965 happened long before the internet. I do not profess to have the answers because I have not researched whether or not the utilities involved were using the net for communications between them or if they had a private network set up between them both for communications and monitoring the grid.
schlimm
Back in 1965, I was working for a major Electric Utility, and it came close to separating from the rest of the Eastern Utility systems as they struggled to maintain synchronized. Unfortunatly, the operators of CONED, NYC's major utility had been trained to try to hang on to the Grid at all costs and should have separated but it cost them dearly.
Intercommunications between the sytems then were by low speed dedicated communication data circuits and voice circuits between system operators and the internet did not exist.
The Grid can be compared to a train that is maintaining speed, loads and power are matched. Add load (go up hill) and it slows down, add power and it speeds up. When matched, the power frequency is 60.000 Hz (cycles per second) when not matched the grid speeds up or slows down (60.001 Hz or 59.999) There are hundreds of generators and millions of customers connected to the grid. I remember once when a major generator in Florida tripped off the grid and we observed the system frequency drop about 0.005 Hz and the grid quickly recovered. We could see this on our frequency charts. What then happened was that other generators on the system had their throttles adjusted to pick up the load. Most don't know but one major utility is in charge of keeping the grid frequency precise so that electric clocks that are on utility power will be correct. Each evening, the utilities are advised to increase or decrease generation to keep clocks correct.
In the 65 event, a generating station Sir Adam Beck Hydroelectric Power Station No. 2 in Queenston, Ontario, near Niagara Falls.was heavily loaded and its load was flowing into southern Ontario, when an improperly set relay on one of three transmission tripped its line. The remaining lines then overloaded and tripped out. Now the generators are still pushing out the power and it starts trying to go onto other lines. Unable to go to Ontario, it starts going East. It almost like slack action in a train breaking a knuckle. It caused areas to have too much power, and over load a line trip it out and then not enough power. Like a crack the whip. NYC had sufficient generation for its load but got whip lashed and pulled down by trying to hang on.
My utility had installed relays that were designed to drop load if the system had slowed down beyond a designed point. Fortunatly for us, the New York blackout was contained to the Northeast and did not spread west. Reading Wikipedia, I just found that the frequency got down to 51Hz. We would have separated at about 58 Hz.
Today, I am not sure how robust the grid is. The utility I retired from has it's own fiber optic network and microwave communications network (which I was involved in) and hopefully is secure. Generation is diversified and controlled through dedicated (not internet) communications managed through the Grid operator PJM. But Never say never.
Suggested reading:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_1965
rdamonIssues with timestamping of stock trades could cause some serious problems.
You may be interested to know that eLoran is specifically concerned with this issue and can address it with the necessary precision.
RME rdamon Issues with timestamping of stock trades could cause some serious problems. You may be interested to know that eLoran is specifically concerned with this issue and can address it with the necessary precision.
rdamon Issues with timestamping of stock trades could cause some serious problems.
Interesting article: http://gpsworld.com/innovation-enhanced-loran/
Back in the 90's when I worked at SPRINT LORAN-C was the primary timing source for SONET networks. Later it was relegated to backup.
It has been seven years since LORAN-C was deactivated. It would be a major project, but some sort of backup is needed.
Thanks to all that have posted on this thread. Some very informative information. Most of you know the reluctance this poster has had with the US and world putting all of its eggs into the one GPS basket for many reasons. .
Many years expprience with Loran "A" and later Loran "C" showed how robust "C" was. This eLoran shows much promise studying the linked article. "C" was always useable inland instead of just on the coast and open waters . "C" should be useable even during high solar storms that will temporarily shut down GPS. Did not realize that the electric power grid was so dependent on the timing circuits of GPS. Makes one wonder what was used before GPS -- WWV ? Unfortunately as pointed out even differential eLoran does not appear suitable for PTC.
http://gpsworld.com/innovation-enhanced-loran/
IslandMan: You may remember that back in 1999 many people were worried about "Y2K". That was the problems that might occur when computers that were programmed to work with 2-digit year dates only up to 99 - i.e., 01/01/99 - would have to deal with either the 'roll-over' to "00" for 2-digit year dates ("Would it think we're back it 1900 ?"), or convert to 4-digit year dates - i.e., 01/01/2000, which was the "Y2K" date. So there was a massive effort to make any such device able to cope with that change.
Anyway, Trains published a photo of a Shay with the following sign on the back of its tender segment:
"Y2K compliant"
I think of it often.
Then there's this article - "Unplugged", datelined Aug. 16, 2003 - about that blackout. It's pretty interesting, but I often quote the aside in parens about the lawyer and the gas stove during a blackout in Bethesda a few years prior, which is about 60% of the way down the page:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/2003/08/16/unplugged/b586bd96-6e4d-4be7-8471-a88227d108ed/?utm_term=.02d2adb7f9cf
and: "Until it doesn't work, and you have to crawl out of a subway like a sewer rat."
As to frequency, I'm amazed that the Safe Harbor hydro-electric dam - which still has some 25 Hz facilities for its Amtrak customer's usage - is designated as a "black start" generating station in the event of a widespread blackout. Approaching 90 years old, and its simplicity is a virtue in keeping the most sophisticated devices working.
- PDN.
Paul, I like your response and link. We are softies. I can still remember my Grandmothers farm where she got her water from a well, (Had a windmill) cooked on a stove fed with corncobs, had a tank on the stove for hot water, a privey for normal bodily functions, and they did have electricity, after REA brought it to the farm in central Indiana. Before then, they had a "DELCO plant for power for a washing machine. Heat was in the kitchen (from said stove) or a coal heater in the parlor. All self reliant. Raised their own chickens, and produce and canned for the winter. Today, I am dependent on electricity to heat the house. Yes, it is a gas furnace but it relies on electricity to ignite the gas and operate the blower. Have a gas stove and I can light the burners with a match (and have) but the oven has a glow bar for ignition and an electically operated gas valve. Fireplace has a gas burner that I could use for heat. But no, I am dependant.
Was up on Washington Island WI, at my son's cottage when the Island lost power for a day. Had to scrounge for water as the well has an electric pump. So couldn't flush the toilet. Has a wood stove so we had heat. Electric stove. No cooking. no refrigeration. A wonderful restaurant, (Danish Mill which just burned) had their own generator and we could get food, and we were able to buy water at a store that had its own generator. Fortunatly the mainland utility which supplies the power was able to recover and re-energize the underwater cable to the island and all was well. the island electical Co-op which has its own generators claimed the load was too unbalanced to restore with its own generators as was normally done.
Maybe we should all be survivalists and harden our abodes with stores of water, food, etc and wait for the apocolipse, but I enjoy having my set-back thermostat bring the house temperature up to daytime levels after sleeping in a cool bedroom so I will stay dependent on the grid.
Paul,
Thanks for your comments and thanks also for the interesting Washington Post article.
Yes I remember the Y2K kerfuffle. As far as I know there were no disasters when the new year came in but I'm not sure if that's because there was never really a problem anyway or whether the many millions of person-hours spent going through code looking for dates paid off (friends of mine who worked in IT made a lot of money in overtime payments!).
I suspect that there is not really any such thing as 'progress' in the sense of a single, inevitable path into the future. The direction technology takes is due to choices made about investment in R & D and this depends on many things including government policy, trade patterns, wars, big vs. small business, tolerance of intellectual dissent (think of Galileo) and control of research funding by oligarchs vs. ordinary people.
If the sort of funds used for R & D in IT were diverted to materials science it might be possible to make machines with the same sort of lifespan as static structures, e.g. automobiles lasting centuries. In this scenario total raw material consumption would drop to low levels as would the amount of labor needed to make stuff.
rdamon GPS is used as a timing source for cell phones and data networks. Issues with timestamping of stock trades could cause some serious problems. The EU, China and India have launched or are planning to launch their own GPS systems.Most newer cell phones can use these networks if enabled by the carrier.
MC,
I am onboard with you. Nothing man has created is perfect but we try to get by with the informaton presented. At times such information can be erronious but knowing you work for and represent on of the most respectred survey companiies I will take tour word as gopel.
Your posts have been informative to say the least.
In a previos life I was a title exminer. and worked with a lots of metes and bounds. I would not think of myself as qulified to challenge you.
Thanks for your insiight.
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