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Are cars moving any better on CSX now?

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Thursday, September 14, 2017 7:54 PM

cx500
. . . CN had already achieved a great deal of improvement prior to buying the IC.  It was only then that EHH joined the management team.  And Paul Tellier remained the top guy, with EHH under him for a few more years. 

"+1" x 3  Thank you for pointing that out.  Bow  I've done it many times before, but am tired of telling those who won't listen or would rather "drink the Kool-Aid" of EHH and his purported wizardry.  I bought CN shares in the late 1990's shortly after it was privatized - when most of the OR decrease occurred - and still have the annual reports from back then to prove it in a box upstairs.  Anyone who wants the truth instead of a PR legend is welcome to come review them - or find them on-line someplace.

- PDN.   

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Posted by Saturnalia on Thursday, September 14, 2017 8:32 PM

Paul_D_North_Jr

 

 
cx500
. . . CN had already achieved a great deal of improvement prior to buying the IC.  It was only then that EHH joined the management team.  And Paul Tellier remained the top guy, with EHH under him for a few more years. 

 

"+1" x 3  Thank you for pointing that out.  Bow  I've done it many times before, but am tired of telling those who won't listen or would rather "drink the Kool-Aid" of EHH and his purported wizardry.  I bought CN shares in the late 1990's shortly after it was privatized - when most of the OR decrease occurred - and still have the annual reports from back then to prove it in a box upstairs.  Anyone who wants the truth instead of a PR legend is welcome to come review them - or find them on-line someplace.

 

Indeed, an honest oversight for me - I haven't correlated the dates and I've never seen somebody point this out before - thanks!

So let me ask this: would you give EHH credit for its application to the IC and the rest, as they were added to the fold? Clearly, extending the network by the greatest margin seen by any railroad short of a full merger isn't anything to scoff at. 

I'm not gonna lie, I'm not super-well versed in the 90s, mostly I suppose because I only lived through the last two years of them! Haha

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Thursday, September 14, 2017 9:47 PM

No problem - you're welcome.  I do appreciate our comments, too. 

The brilliant move was adding IC to make the T-shaped system that uniquely connects all 3 coasts.  I suppose he had vision for that, as IC was a 'friendly' acquistion.  I'd agree that the incremental acquistions afterward - e.g., EJ&E - were good moves, and no, nothing to scoff at.  But I've always understood - perhaps incorrectly - that the 'value added' came from the network and synergies created thereby as you point out, not from extending Precision Scheduled Railroading to them.  Even so, it would have been incremental - not wholesale, as at CSX now - and I think that deliberate approach had a lot to do with it succeeding there.  

So he did good work at CN, even if not wholly popular - his 'Hunter Camps' and 2 books were a definite innovation, that's for sure.  But I fear that now he's either a "one-trick pony", or another example of the Peter Principle: he's been promoted to his level of incompetence. 

- PDN. 

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Posted by oltmannd on Thursday, September 14, 2017 11:14 PM

Numbers for the past week (STB724) are out.  Train speed is up over 1 mph lead by intermodal speed.  Cars on line  are down about 4k.  Loads and empties over 48 hrs are down a nice chunk.  Dwell is the sticky one. Didn't really budge.  Maybe because of traffic held over Labor Day?

The numbers showed the improvment that can happen when you use a slack period to do a 'reset'.  Do they have enough resources to hold these numbers and make more improvement?  Might take a few weeks to find out with Irma disruption...

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, September 15, 2017 1:15 AM

Please let us return to the emphasis on cutting costs vs. growing the business.  I think it is wrong to say that all Class Is emphasis the former.  Certainly BNSF does not, NS and UP seem to be doing a balancing act.

Both NS and CSX were heavily dependent on coal.  Losing much of that business, before HH, both NS and CSX were trying to grow the business as well as cut costs.  With HH, CSX changed to emphsise cutting costs over growing the business.  NS did not change.   So who is going be the major player in the years to come in the East?

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, September 15, 2017 1:44 AM

And who wil be a major player, instead of even compitition, will eventully affect the bottom line and srock prices.

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Posted by n012944 on Friday, September 15, 2017 4:46 PM

BaltACD

According to those involved - they have been given multiple move dates and move locations since it was announced that they were moving 

 

Whoever told you about "multiple locations" was incorrect.  The company has given the ATDA one notification of the move, and the location was Jacksonville for those that are subject to the move.  There have been numorous rumors of different locations since EHH said that 9 dispatching locations was too many, but nothing offical from the company.

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Posted by Saturnalia on Friday, September 15, 2017 5:13 PM

daveklepper

Please let us return to the emphasis on cutting costs vs. growing the business.  I think it is wrong to say that all Class Is emphasis the former.  Certainly BNSF does not, NS and UP seem to be doing a balancing act.

Both NS and CSX were heavily dependent on coal.  Losing much of that business, before HH, both NS and CSX were trying to grow the business as well as cut costs.  With HH, CSX changed to emphsise cutting costs over growing the business.  NS did not change.   So who is going be the major player in the years to come in the East?

 

I think you're incorrect, daveklepper, on your assertion that since CSX came under the EHH spell that is has shifted from growth to cost-cutting. From all my observations, particularly since the merger noise a few years ago, is that CSX shifted into full cost-cutting, which definitely hurt their network in various ways, while NS kept their cool, and agreed to keep working, like they had, on cost control and asset utilization. 

So I think since EHH came on board, CSX is still of course in cost-cutting mode, albeit with an entirely different, and much more visible methodology. CSX of Yore wanted to run 28-hour trains, basically squeeze as much out of each train as possible. Harrison is also looking at the physical plant, and trimming the fat there. CSX of yore didn't look at closing humps, but by golly EHH did...and too fast, as previously discussed. 

Additionally, Harrison is on the record believing in growth in loose carloadings. Actually, I don't think he gives enough credit for that. CSX and many other Class One operations have despised loose carloading for years, due to its lower margins. But now that coal is no longer king, everybody is starting to warm back up to it. But CSX of yore? No way they were seriously contemplating real mixed carload growth the way they chose to operate their trains, particularly locals and the 28-hour schedule. 

So I'd argue that Harrison has pushed cost cutting in a different, more "cost control" direction, while believing that loose carloads can make plenty of cash. In fact, that's why he's closing humps: to lower costs for loose carloads, to improve those margins. 

Harrison rightly believes that coal is on the long slide towards being obsolete (much to the chargin of many forum members here), while also recognizing that mixed carloads can earn money - but they must reduce their costs, particularly the fixed costs, and modify the market to flatten out the weekly spikes in traffic, among other measures. 

I think part of the challenge in this respect - that is traffic growth - is that the Western Carriers not only have a long haul, but their networks were built more on connecting passenger and long-haul freight than CSX and NS's coal-centric routes. 

If you look at Union Pacific in particular, they've always been just as relient on coal as the eastern carriers. They've been mining in Wyoming from Laramie to Green River and beyond pretty much since the rails went down in the late 1860s. Coal from Hanna, Rawlins and Rock Springs (among others) literally fueled the railroad, and the bottom line. Fast forward and now they've got the Powder River.

But - here's the thing. Erase from UP their lines dedicated to coal, and see how much dissappears. Almost nothing! Sure they'd be wise to really trim northwest of Sutherland, and perhaps Sutherland to Gibbon could also see trimming if other growth doesn't take up the slack, but really, UP hauls coal on the same tracks as everything else just about everywhere. There are actually very few places where coal is everything, and even on the main trunk east of Sutherland, there's still a huge amount of non-coal tonnage. Erase the Powder River, and it isn't an insurmountable hit. 

So, its very easy to see how in the long run, UP can most definitely afford plenty of traffic growth to offset coal. 

BNSF is the same way, albeit to a less beneficial extent, since their coal franchise sees much less traffic otherwise. 

But how about CSX and NS? Their whole cores are built for coal, and minus that, they've got a TON of track with nothing or almost nothing on it. The C&O isn't pushing a couple dozen stacks, racks and manifest trains daily. NS is mostly the same way - their networks just aren't built for speed or long distance, and tend towards modest traffic over many lines instead of a handful of long-haul, high density routes. This is the great spaghetti bowl everybody talks about when considering if EHH can implement PSR on a much less linear network. 

So if you look at CSX and NS, with their highest-density lines, they're not loaded up with coal. The B&O west of PA sees almost no coal - actually most of it is Western - while the Chicago-SE link certainly doesn't have much, and neither does the East Coast Run. So those lines, which they're relying on for their main trunks, it isn't like less coal means more space to run other things. Traffic growth without grinding the B&O to death is almost impossible now west of Greenwich. 

So where is that traffic growth going to come from, and where is it going to go?

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, September 15, 2017 6:17 PM

Saturnalia
 
daveklepper

Please let us return to the emphasis on cutting costs vs. growing the business.  I think it is wrong to say that all Class Is emphasis the former.  Certainly BNSF does not, NS and UP seem to be doing a balancing act.

Both NS and CSX were heavily dependent on coal.  Losing much of that business, before HH, both NS and CSX were trying to grow the business as well as cut costs.  With HH, CSX changed to emphsise cutting costs over growing the business.  NS did not change.   So who is going be the major player in the years to come in the East? 

I think you're incorrect, daveklepper, on your assertion that since CSX came under the EHH spell that is has shifted from growth to cost-cutting. From all my observations, particularly since the merger noise a few years ago, is that CSX shifted into full cost-cutting, which definitely hurt their network in various ways, while NS kept their cool, and agreed to keep working, like they had, on cost control and asset utilization. 

So I think since EHH came on board, CSX is still of course in cost-cutting mode, albeit with an entirely different, and much more visible methodology. CSX of Yore wanted to run 28-hour trains, basically squeeze as much out of each train as possible. Harrison is also looking at the physical plant, and trimming the fat there. CSX of yore didn't look at closing humps, but by golly EHH did...and too fast, as previously discussed. 

Additionally, Harrison is on the record believing in growth in loose carloadings. Actually, I don't think he gives enough credit for that. CSX and many other Class One operations have despised loose carloading for years, due to its lower margins. But now that coal is no longer king, everybody is starting to warm back up to it. But CSX of yore? No way they were seriously contemplating real mixed carload growth the way they chose to operate their trains, particularly locals and the 28-hour schedule. 

So I'd argue that Harrison has pushed cost cutting in a different, more "cost control" direction, while believing that loose carloads can make plenty of cash. In fact, that's why he's closing humps: to lower costs for loose carloads, to improve those margins. 

Harrison rightly believes that coal is on the long slide towards being obsolete (much to the chargin of many forum members here), while also recognizing that mixed carloads can earn money - but they must reduce their costs, particularly the fixed costs, and modify the market to flatten out the weekly spikes in traffic, among other measures. 

I think part of the challenge in this respect - that is traffic growth - is that the Western Carriers not only have a long haul, but their networks were built more on connecting passenger and long-haul freight than CSX and NS's coal-centric routes. 

If you look at Union Pacific in particular, they've always been just as relient on coal as the eastern carriers. They've been mining in Wyoming from Laramie to Green River and beyond pretty much since the rails went down in the late 1860s. Coal from Hanna, Rawlins and Rock Springs (among others) literally fueled the railroad, and the bottom line. Fast forward and now they've got the Powder River.

But - here's the thing. Erase from UP their lines dedicated to coal, and see how much dissappears. Almost nothing! Sure they'd be wise to really trim northwest of Sutherland, and perhaps Sutherland to Gibbon could also see trimming if other growth doesn't take up the slack, but really, UP hauls coal on the same tracks as everything else just about everywhere. There are actually very few places where coal is everything, and even on the main trunk east of Sutherland, there's still a huge amount of non-coal tonnage. Erase the Powder River, and it isn't an insurmountable hit. 

So, its very easy to see how in the long run, UP can most definitely afford plenty of traffic growth to offset coal. 

BNSF is the same way, albeit to a less beneficial extent, since their coal franchise sees much less traffic otherwise. 

But how about CSX and NS? Their whole cores are built for coal, and minus that, they've got a TON of track with nothing or almost nothing on it. The C&O isn't pushing a couple dozen stacks, racks and manifest trains daily. NS is mostly the same way - their networks just aren't built for speed or long distance, and tend towards modest traffic over many lines instead of a handful of long-haul, high density routes. This is the great spaghetti bowl everybody talks about when considering if EHH can implement PSR on a much less linear network. 

So if you look at CSX and NS, with their highest-density lines, they're not loaded up with coal. The B&O west of PA sees almost no coal - actually most of it is Western - while the Chicago-SE link certainly doesn't have much, and neither does the East Coast Run. So those lines, which they're relying on for their main trunks, it isn't like less coal means more space to run other things. Traffic growth without grinding the B&O to death is almost impossible now west of Greenwich. 

So where is that traffic growth going to come from, and where is it going to go?

Somebody's smokin' too much wacky tabacky!

The progenitors of the 28 hour day are still employed from what I was able to gather on my recent visit.  All terminals have been and were investigated for possible closure - the difference between those investigations and what EHH has done - they were looked at from the position of how the system would perform the functions of the closed terminal.  What happens at Cumberland has an affect on what has to happen at Baltimore, Philadelphia, Willard, Cincinnati and Chicago.

There is no terminal that operates in a vacuum without affecting other terminals.  EHH as done away with point & distributor ignition of the CSX engine, without installing the computerized iginition system that is required for any engine to continue to operate.  Hacking terminal operations without a plan is a good way bring things to gridlock and PO your customers along the way.

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Saturday, September 16, 2017 11:06 AM

oltmannd
Numbers for the past week (STB724) are out.  Train speed is up over 1 mph lead by intermodal speed.  Cars on line  are down about 4k.  Loads and empties over 48 hrs are down a nice chunk.  Dwell is the sticky one. Didn't really budge.  Maybe because of traffic held over Labor Day?

The numbers showed the improvment that can happen when you use a slack period to do a 'reset'.  Do they have enough resources to hold these numbers and make more improvement?  Might take a few weeks to find out with Irma disruption...

On Labor Day (!) I saw or heard about a half-dozen CSX trains pass through Ohiopyle, PA in the 9 AM - 7 PM timeframe, though I was out of earshot from the tracks from about 2 PM to 6 PM.  So despite the usual almost-shutdowns on major holidays, CSX was pretty active.  FWIW, the 2 trains I actually saw were a double-stack and a multi-level, and 1 of the moves I heard could have been just a light-engine helper set. 

- PDN. 

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Posted by cx500 on Saturday, September 16, 2017 2:07 PM

Major holidays are irrelevant in the Precision World of EHH, just a nuisance and another way to harass the running trades.

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, September 16, 2017 2:37 PM

cx500
Major holidays are irrelevant in the Precision World of EHH, just a nuisance and another way to harass the running trades.

Over the past several years the only Holidays CSX 'planned' for were Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years.  Work during other 'holidays' were dictated by how the customers observed the holiday.  If the customers for a particular job didn't work for the holiday, that job would not work for the holiday.  Operationally, very few industries observe more than the traditional three - their backoffice and adminstrative positions may observe the holiday but operations continue normally.

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, September 16, 2017 3:05 PM

Sat:  I do not see how converting hump yards into flat switching yards benefits loose-car railroading.  Hump yards can take four inbound trains from different points and convert them into foiur outbound trains to different points a  lot faster than a flat-switching yard.

The coal trains in general did not require the hump yards as much as general manafest trains.  And both NS and CSX do have important lines capable high speed if the track, signals, and dispatching permit, New Jersey - Florida for example.

I think in general your reply more substiantiated what I posted rather than contradicted it.  If HH does in fact go after new business and gets it, than CSX won't have to dump him to recover.  I hope this is truly the case.

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Posted by PNWRMNM on Saturday, September 16, 2017 10:32 PM

daveklepper

Sat:  I do not see how converting hump yards into flat switching yards benefits loose-car railroading.  Hump yards can take four inbound trains from different points and convert them into four outbound trains to different points a  lot faster than a flat-switching yard.

DaveK,

Yes, hump yards can do that with 30 hour or so average dwell, BUT hump yards are expensive so the object is to hump at as few places, or as few times as possible in any given trip. You need to think in blocks of cars not individual cars. Any yard builds or breaks down blocks of cars. If I can preblock to avoid a hump yard down stream I have probably cut costs. Now perhaps my thru train simply needs to set out a block of local cars for the former hump and pick up another block or two or three or four blocks that were flat switched. Some switching can be done here or there. Which is best, cheapest, quickest? This is almost impossible for an outsider to answer and is why the railroads have operations models that can test different plans, determine the best, and locate bottlenecks which may start an investigation of alternatives and costs to eliminate the bottleneck or relocate the work.

What you do not want to do is change a bunch of stuff all at once, expecially if you have not run your model. Others have talked about just making changes and seeing how it will work out. That is OK in moderation, after all the model may not be correct. The key is moderation and doing a series of changes incrementally so they can settle and you can see what the result was and prove or disprove the model.

It appears that EHH has simply issued orders based on his private theory of what will work. He could be right. Done incrementally if something doesn't work, it can be identified and reversed or modified. If you change a whole bunch of things all at once it is a formula for chaos. If EHH's vision is correct, the chaos will clear up. If vision is not correct, it will be tough to sort out the good changes from the bad. So far no one on the outisde, and perhaps on the inside too, knows if EHH vision is correct.

 

Mac

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Posted by oltmannd on Saturday, September 16, 2017 10:59 PM

Paul_D_North_Jr

 

 
oltmannd
Numbers for the past week (STB724) are out.  Train speed is up over 1 mph lead by intermodal speed.  Cars on line  are down about 4k.  Loads and empties over 48 hrs are down a nice chunk.  Dwell is the sticky one. Didn't really budge.  Maybe because of traffic held over Labor Day?

The numbers showed the improvment that can happen when you use a slack period to do a 'reset'.  Do they have enough resources to hold these numbers and make more improvement?  Might take a few weeks to find out with Irma disruption...

 

On Labor Day (!) I saw or heard about a half-dozen CSX trains pass through Ohiopyle, PA in the 9 AM - 7 PM timeframe, though I was out of earshot from the tracks from about 2 PM to 6 PM.  So despite the usual almost-shutdowns on major holidays, CSX was pretty active.  FWIW, the 2 trains I actually saw were a double-stack and a multi-level, and 1 of the moves I heard could have been just a light-engine helper set. 

 

- PDN. 

 

When you are in the ditch, you use the holiday to try to get out and run everything you can.  When things are good, but traffic is slipping, you try to lay down everything you can.  In normal times, it's usually a blend.

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, September 16, 2017 11:05 PM

With or without Hump Yards - for the most part there is daily service between Origin-Destination pairs.  That is a 'scheduled' 24 hour delay to the car that, for whatever the reason, misses today's train.  The reality of train operations at virtually any yard (hump or otherwise) If train A arrives at 8 AM with a mix of cars in it's 150 cars that need to depart on Train X at 12 Noon - that unless severe priority is given - the cars will make Train X tomorrow in the normal course of business.  To make a 12 Noon departure, Train X needs to have it's switching completed no later than 9-10 AM - thus giving the Car Department time to lace the air hoses and make a departure Class 1 air test - identifying shops and making any 'running' repairs that they are equipped to perform - while this inspection is taking place the track(s) Train X occupies will be Blue Flagged.

Flat switching does not increase switching efficiency.  It eliminates the cost of maintaining the hump retarders and power operated switches and computer support of the operation - at the resulting increase in dwell and car hire as well as facilities being occupied for a longer period of time.

 

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Posted by cx500 on Sunday, September 17, 2017 12:39 AM

"If train A arrives at 8 AM with a mix of cars in it's 150 cars that need to depart on Train X at 12 Noon - that unless severe priority is given - the cars will make Train X tomorrow in the normal course of business."

However, if train A arrives at 8 AM with a block of 40 cars, it can set those out on a track ready for Train X to lift prior to its 12 Noon departure.  Naturally the cars on Train A still have to be preblocked somewhere back on its route.  That may mean a yard crew has to work a full shift rather than getting an early quit after 5 hours, and of course the arriving train crew has to do a little more work before booking off.  But there is minimal additional labor cost and block swapping does seem to work fairly well now here in Calgary on the CPR.  Because it works well in one place does not mean it will work as well for a more complex route network. 

A hump requires a lot of maintenance to keep the retarders, power switches and other electronics working reliably, plus all the folks actually operating the humping process on the ground and in the control tower.  Yet more yard crews are needed to move cuts from the class tracks over to the departure tracks to assemble a future train.

Modern unit trains and intermodals bypass hump yards and there is a lot less loose car railroading these days.  Why the railroads have tried to discourage the latter is separate topic, but other threads have discussed how the railroads seem to ignore obvious business opportunities.

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Posted by BaltACD on Sunday, September 17, 2017 6:00 AM

CSX route structure and loose car network are not CP's or CN's or IC's.  Square pegs and round holes 

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Posted by oltmannd on Sunday, September 17, 2017 9:06 AM

Hump yards are a very efficient, cheap and fast way to classify cars.  But, they are cheap only if you keep them busy.  

It is expected that you can get a car from arrival to departing on the next train in 10 hours in a hump with great regularity.  That yields an avg dwell of around 22 hours if all inbound and outbound trains run 7 days a week and distribution of cars "from" and "to" trains isn't lumpy (and generally, it is fairly uniform)

Pre-blocking is a wonderful thing and you only need a couple of hours planned dwell for a block swap, but there is only so much of it you can do and you have to run the trains on time to avoi- having your air slip time out if you miss your connection.  One of the on-going activities in the service design groups is using the models to find block by-pass and pre-blocking. opportunities as the traffic slowly changes

The goal of your of you operating plan is to minimize the number-going  of times you have to classify a car en route.  The train service and train speed mean much less than the number of times you have switch a car.  Roads like NS and CSX likely have it down to 1.5 to 2.0 times per trip (not counting serving yard or interchanges) with an average trip around 500 miles. That's pretty efficient.  

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Posted by Saturnalia on Sunday, September 17, 2017 10:59 PM

oltmannd

Pre-blocking is a wonderful thing and you only need a couple of hours planned dwell for a block swap, but there is only so much of it you can do and you have to run the trains on time to avoid having your air slip time out if you miss your connection.  

To what extent might pre-blocking save on car department forces? If you're in a hump you're going to Class-One every outbound airtest, whereas with blocking, so long as you have ground air, you in *theory* don't have to do a Class One ever, so long as the block swaps happen where your air is. Of course, new blocks would have to be Class-Oned, but if you hump your train, you start your air from scratch. 

It seems like most major yards these days have a significant amount of ground air, so I can't imagine that it'd be super expensive to extend the network in those cases where it doesn't reach to where you need it. But I have a hard time seeing how the departure yards in humps don't already have the air, in places where carmen make the airtest.

If I have my airtest procedures wrong, by all means straighten me out!

As to some of the former points, especially in terms of capacity for growth, I'd agree with the statement that eliminating a hump could make future growth more difficult. However, that'd only be the case in some places where traffic has the capacity to grow, and in places where there are enough different origin-destination pairs to make blocking inefficient, and where there are at least 1000 cars, if not 1500 cars per day, likely to pass through. 

I think there is little argument that CSX had too many humps - but in terms of getting it down to as few as two? Yeah I think that might be pushing it. 5-6 seems like a reasonable number to me. Willard, Queensgate, Waycross, Avon, minimum. Then pick your poison on which of the smaller ones to keep. Perhaps Selkirk or Nashville or Birmingham, to cover one or more of the "corners" not served well by those core four. 

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Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, September 19, 2017 10:16 AM

An car trip example.  A load of paper going from SE VA to South Jersey.

Local picks up car and takes it to Crewe VA, which is serving yard for the industry.

Car is classified "Allentown" at Crewe and picked up the next morning at 9AM by train 159.

159 drops Allentown block at Lynchburg VA.

6-1/2 hours later, 36Q picks up Allentowns and takes them to Allentown. This connection should be pretty good.  It's not likely 159 will be too late into Lynchburg to miss 36Q.

Car is classified Pavonia at Allentown.

24-1/2 hours after arriving, it departs on 38G for Pavonia.  This will be a very reliable connection.  The inbound train can be 14 hours late and it will still likely make the right 38G.

Pavonia is the serving yard for load.  It switches the car and builds the local train that departs 8-1/2 hours after arrival.

Total serving yard to serving yard trip time is 2 days 9-1/2 hours.

Car was had one intermediate classification at Allentown, and one block swap at Lynchburg.

Total dwell at Lynchburg and Allentown, 33 hours.  Total time on a road train, 25-1/2 hours (if I did the math right...)

Serving yard to serving yard mileage, about 600.

This would be a slightly above average carload trip on NS.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Tuesday, September 19, 2017 8:45 PM

How does the car get from Allentown to Pavonia ?  Isn't that a lot of backhaul - Allentown to Reading to Philadelphia to South Jersey ?

- PDN.  

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
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Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 9:50 AM

Paul_D_North_Jr

How does the car get from Allentown to Pavonia ?  Isn't that a lot of backhaul - Allentown to Reading to Philadelphia to South Jersey ?

- PDN.  

 

It's a bit of circuity.  Allentown is in the wrong place in the network for current traffic.  It would be better if it were in Reading.   Allentown has been on the bubble for decades.  I suspect if NS were to close Allentown, you'd see a lot of block swapping in Reading - provided the yard there could be beefed up sufficiently.

The circuity of Phila/South Jersey traffic from the west and south is the biggest problem of this kind on NS. (or was a couple of years ago, anyway)

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 10:03 AM

There is a snippet of a talk by a CSX commercial guy to a room of shippers that CSX posted on Facebook this morning.  He explains PSR to the group.

1. Reduce intermediate handlings

2. Pre block at serving yards/long haul blocking plan

3. Make strategic en route set outs and pick ups to eliminate circuity

4. Don't force shippers into unit train service if cycle time is lousy

5. Integrate everything into the plan.  MOW work, unit trains, etc.

Items 1, 2 and 3 are basic tenets of scheduled railroading everywhere and have been for a decade.  

Item 4 is interesting but I doubt there is much "there" there.  There have been times where marketing and operations have been at odds about service, i.e. discounts for large volume blocks drove lumpy traffic patterns.

Item 5 is easier said than done.  NS adjusts the plan for MOW gangs.  Scheduling unit trains is hard work.  Current efforts are less than rigourous efforts to "slot" them into the flow.  There are probably some decent savings to be had if you can time the "launch" of unit trains around crew availability and track space.

But, because 1-3 are already being done to a large degree, I'll stick to my original prediction that EHH won't get nearly the same sized operational "bump" on CSX that he did elsewhere.  Most of the low hanging fruit was picked a decade ago.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 10:19 AM

Saturnalia

 

 
oltmannd

Pre-blocking is a wonderful thing and you only need a couple of hours planned dwell for a block swap, but there is only so much of it you can do and you have to run the trains on time to avoid having your air slip time out if you miss your connection.  

 

 

To what extent might pre-blocking save on car department forces? If you're in a hump you're going to Class-One every outbound airtest, whereas with blocking, so long as you have ground air, you in *theory* don't have to do a Class One ever, so long as the block swaps happen where your air is. Of course, new blocks would have to be Class-Oned, but if you hump your train, you start your air from scratch. 

It seems like most major yards these days have a significant amount of ground air, so I can't imagine that it'd be super expensive to extend the network in those cases where it doesn't reach to where you need it. But I have a hard time seeing how the departure yards in humps don't already have the air, in places where carmen make the airtest.

If I have my airtest procedures wrong, by all means straighten me out!

As to some of the former points, especially in terms of capacity for growth, I'd agree with the statement that eliminating a hump could make future growth more difficult. However, that'd only be the case in some places where traffic has the capacity to grow, and in places where there are enough different origin-destination pairs to make blocking inefficient, and where there are at least 1000 cars, if not 1500 cars per day, likely to pass through. 

I think there is little argument that CSX had too many humps - but in terms of getting it down to as few as two? Yeah I think that might be pushing it. 5-6 seems like a reasonable number to me. Willard, Queensgate, Waycross, Avon, minimum. Then pick your poison on which of the smaller ones to keep. Perhaps Selkirk or Nashville or Birmingham, to cover one or more of the "corners" not served well by those core four. 

 

The good places to do block swaps often don't have yard air.  They're more often just a "wide spot in the road".  It's not do or die, just one more thing that needs managed.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 10:20 AM

oltmannd
There is a snippet of a talk by a CSX commercial guy to a room of shippers that CSX posted on Facebook this morning.  He explains PSR to the group.

1. Reduce intermediate handlings

2. Pre block at serving yards/long haul blocking plan

3. Make strategic en route set outs and pick ups to eliminate circuity

4. Don't force shippers into unit train service if cycle time is lousy

5. Integrate everything into the plan.  MOW work, unit trains, etc.

Items 1, 2 and 3 are basic tenets of scheduled railroading everywhere and have been for a decade.  

Item 4 is interesting but I doubt there is much "there" there.  There have been times where marketing and operations have been at odds about service, i.e. discounts for large volume blocks drove lumpy traffic patterns.

Item 5 is easier said than done.  NS adjusts the plan for MOW gangs.  Scheduling unit trains is hard work.  Current efforts are less than rigourous efforts to "slot" them into the flow.  There are probably some decent savings to be had if you can time the "launch" of unit trains around crew availability and track space.

But, because 1-3 are already being done to a large degree, I'll stick to my original prediction that EHH won't get nearly the same sized operational "bump" on CSX that he did elsewhere.  Most of the low hanging fruit was picked a decade ago.

1 - 2 & 3 are basic Old Time railroading

RE: 4 - Unit Train cycle times - who is the culprit for lousy cycle times?  Shipper, Consignee or the carrier?  A nonsensical statement from my vantage point

RE: 5 - When I was working the Operating Plan was changed on a weekly basis to account for and work around MofW curfews that were taking place at various places around the system.  If necessary trains would be rerouted around work area, in some cases even rerouting trains over 'foreign' carriers. 

EHH is not bringing anything new to CSX except terror.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 12:11 PM

BaltACD
1 - 2 & 3 are basic Old Time railroading

Well, sort of.  One of the big changes that came from the scheduled operations rather than tonnage operations was the use of network models to optimize blocking and minimize handling.  Before that, the classifications were decided by guys who "just knew".  When railroads were smaller, this was possible.  Not so much now with roads like NS and CSX.

Scheduing units trains is much harder than having schedules for merchandise trains because the RR and the shipper spend a lot of time not trusting each other.  You don't win this game by just saying "trust me!" I have not heard any part of EHH's scheme that addresses this.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 12:28 PM

oltmannd

The good places to do block swaps often don't have yard air.  They're more often just a "wide spot in the road".  It's not do or die, just one more thing that needs managed.

That could be of some expense.  Electric, compressor, piping & probably at both ends of a siding ?  $10k at least for each installation ?

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Posted by tree68 on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 12:35 PM

blue streak 1
That could be of some expense.  Electric, compressor, piping & probably at both ends of a siding ?  $10k at least for each installation ?

Not to mention the ongoing cost of power to run it...

LarryWhistling
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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 2:33 PM

blue streak 1
 
oltmannd

The good places to do block swaps often don't have yard air.  They're more often just a "wide spot in the road".  It's not do or die, just one more thing that needs managed. 

That could be of some expense.  Electric, compressor, piping & probably at both ends of a siding ?  $10k at least for each installation ?

x 10 at least and probably closer to x 20.

 

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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