Long-time members as well as those in the habit of causing trouble

[Bergie]

I thought you could gain a little by reading this post I just dropped on the Classic Toy Trains forum:

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=26436

[V] Bergie

[Anonymous]

Bergie,
First of all, I want to say for the record that even hideously offensive posts don't trouble me much; I am perfectly capable of ignoring them. So I would hate to see any over-reaction for a very tiny issue.

And I am confident the management would not institute a fee. Among other alternatives, how about a more or less automatic membership for any subscriber to any of the magazines - you know WE are actual people - and some other method for non-subscribers?

Larry Fish

[Anonymous]

I've always thought these "sock puppet" artists were rather pathetic.. Of course, some people are so nutz that the only way they are gonna get anyone to agree with their POV is if they create that other person, then spoon feed themselves accolades.

I will say that the "credit card only" idea, suxx. I tore up all of mine years ago, and rather enjoy not owing half my paycheck to a bank the first of each month.

PayPal collects too much information that is accessible by too many people.

My thought would be if you do start charging membership, you should at least be willing to take a personal check in the mail, same as you do for magazine subscriptions

[slotracer]

I find forums of any type to be a nice convenience attached to whatever world I am interacting with (Slot cars, trains, firefighting, community issues, old friends etc) but not worth it to me to pay for. As an example, Classmates.com forced everyone to have membership in order to post on their forums a couple years ago and they died, maybe a post of two a month at best in my high school where there used to be several posts a day.

[gabe]

I agree that the credit card is a bad idea.

It is not that I do not trust Kalmbach; I don't trust the people/companies who raid such information. The Pay Pal debacle is a good example.

I recently sent the following message to Trains:

My recommendation is to have a subscription number issued with the magazine. This subscription number could be used to gain access and solve the above problem. This would be advantageous because (1) it would be more likely to keep people like me on the forum by cutting the transactions in half and (2) it would be more likely to keep people who don't want to pay for it from complaining (3) it might help your sales too.

I will support whatever decision you make. I just hope you are able to keep the process simple for me and keep the forum pool at a high level.

Gabe

[lupo]

Bergie,
some forums require answering an e-mail send to the e-mail adress you provided to finish your signing up, that will filter out bogus e-mail adresses,
and about the credit card stuff: how about our younger members who do not have a credit card allready, ( where I live you have to be 18 to get one ) you can't force them to leave isn't this supposed to be a forum for all ages ?

btw you could skip the forum fee for Kalmbach magazine subscribers, having another reason to get a subscription

[Junctionfan]

If it takes the forum having to require payment in order to keep the riftraft out, as long as money order is an option (don't know when my credit card will come in), you have my support and would love to continue to be a positive contributer to this great forum.

Thankyou Bergie,

Andrew Little

[Anonymous]

And the comment about Yahoo mail.. I run my own Yahoo mail on a fully paid DSL line. I do keep a seperate junker email that I give out to websites that pump out spam or require registration to visit one time.

I feel that Trains.com is a respected site and would not want to see a subscription fee. Firstly, I dont do pay pal although I have that ability any one who actually found thier way into my pay pal will run up against a bank that is aware of this account and it is monitored DAILY. Finally the financial gain is maybe 20 dollars. Hardly worth the time and expense to get money fraudently.

I would be happy to pay a small fee yearly for this site, however it must be opened up to personal checks or money order the same way magazines are subscribed. Heck, give subscribers of magazines a "No fee access to trains.com that way they dont have to go thru the process twice.

I am sorry that people has chosen to be anonymous in thier approach to Trains.com and everyone who visit, however as we all know that the internet is full of those who desire to remain "untraceable" for whatever purpose in life.

My two cents

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lupo
btw you could skip the forum fee for Kalmbach magazine subscribers, having another reason to get a subscription

I think that this may be the way to go. If you have a subscription, then you would be able to post (under one user name) for free. If you do not, then you would have to pony up the money if you wanted to post. This would solve the problem for most of the underage people that don't/can't have a credit card (I think most of them here have a subscription already)and would keep the forum in a more civil state.

And Thanks Bergie for being the moderator and trying to keep things in order around here. I know it is a tough job, and it is very appreciated here in Colorado.

Just my two cents.

[BaltACD]

If I have to pay to communicate....I'm out of here.

FREE speech!

[Anonymous]

Bergie, No one respects decorum in the forum more than I. From what I have seen, those that come in to cause a "unnessary rukus" are delt with and in the case of most of the three, four and five stars they show a since of class that is rarely out of line. If they do go out line (out of order, to use an antiquated phrase), appologies are often either public or emailed and from what I can see are accepted.

[tree68]

I've dealt with many sites that required you to reply to an email in order to get access. Much of the process can be automated. It wouldn't keep out the riff-raff that's really determined, but neither will making them pay ("hey, I paid, I can say what I like!"). The subscription idea isn't bad, but up until recently I was a loyal TRAINS reader who bought his magazine while supporting his local hobby shop.

As has been said, we don't do a bad job of policing as it is (I noticed one post by a slightly renamed individual rapidly sinking to bottom earlier today). However things go, I'll more than likely continue to participate.

[Anonymous]

As just the token cranky ol' railroad guy on this board, I have to say that if it is going to become another TO style pay per view I'm not interested. This site is generally fun and has a good group of folks overall. Unfortunately, there are a few who need to get with the program or get on down the road...

I already pay enough just to be on the net. Also, although many of you know some things about me I'd prefer not to reveal my true identity for several reasons. If that becomes a prerequisite for membership I'll have to go elserwhere. I don't maintain multiple identities, so that is not the issue.

LC

[jabrown1971]

I have to say, that except for my responses to the Grumpy man from the other night, I have posted what I feel are decent and respectable posts. I never try to purposely put anyone down and try to get them to think outside the boundaries. I apologize for participating the other night and am sorry. Thanks for not tossing me out Bergie. NOW-I like trains.com a lot, currently subscribe to MR but Trains lapsed long ago-1991 to be exact, and MR is aboout to expire to. I feel that If I am required to pay by Credit/Debit card, then no thanks. Answering a question that would get you a membership is okay, but you shouldn't have to buy anything to be a member. As for not taking Yahoo, MSN, Hotmail email accts. Well that's not cool either. While I have a valid e-mail account from my employer, I don't think they would be too happy if that was the email I provided for this site. OVerall, I have to say that the few people who come on here to cause trouble is small. Dealing with them on an individual basis is a better choice. Bergie, perhaps a better way to do this is to sift through all known email addresses and ask for a response from that person. If none received in a timely manner-1-3-5 days lock them out. Thanks

[Junctionfan]

Maybe more moderators is required. If you have tons of volunteer and trusted moderators, the trolls and flamers will get fed up and seek fun elsewhere.

Fort Knoxing the forum with more moderators maybe easier than setting up a fee system. I don't mind helping out if my services are required.

[jsoderq]

I agree there can be problems on these forums. I am ambivalent about the fee for a couple reasons - younger members, bookeeping, and as pointed out - some of the real troublemakers would pony up just to be able to cause trouble. Cutting out free emailers like Yahoo would definitely hurt a lot of people. I propose much quicker and more drastic response to "problems" This has worked on other forums I frequent. Swift and immediate "execution". After a couple times being removed even the "hardcore" will give up. While I am aware you don't have the time to do this by yourself, what was done on the other forum was to have a "silent observer" who emailed the moderator as soon as a problem popped up. Hopefully a solution will be found that will not hurt any well behaved members.

[Anonymous]

I agree, this forum should have more moderators. Honestly, if I have to pay, I'm out of here.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

Maybe more moderators is required. If you have tons of volunteer and trusted moderators, the trolls and flamers will get fed up and seek fun elsewhere.

Fort Knoxing the forum with more moderators maybe easier than setting up a fee system. I don't mind helping out if my services are required.

Um,..."volunteer" member moderators is a REALLY BAD idea. I've participated in several forums that did this, and there just seems to be NO WAY to keep cliquishness out of the mix.

Certain members "kiss up" to their special pal and in consequence gain considerable leeway not available to all members.

Suppose "member mod" Joe Doaks is good buddies with several members. You come and join as a new member,...and after a few days one of those friends of Joe Doaks decides he is going to get cute with you......That may very well bother Joe far less than it will when you start defending yourself.

Once you do that, it will be YOU who is declared the trouble maker.

BAD IDEA!

[dharmon]

If there is to be a fee, and I am not promoting that idea, I would prefer the method Mr Fish floated, ie. considered part of the price of a magazine subscription for current Kalmbach subscribers with our subscriber number used to register. Any actual fees would be assessed to non-subscribers..

[dwil89]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dougal

I agree, this forum should have more moderators. Honestly, if I have to pay, I'm out of here.

I belong to several Yahoo Railroad discussion groups, and also own one myself. These sites are free, and the ones I belong to, are well run. I can't remember the last time I had to read stuff on those groups from people out to disrupt things. The ones I belong to are well moderated, Members are generally positive and well mannered, on those free forums, they know that if they are out to disrupt, out of the group they go....I don't think that making this a pay site is necessary.....thorough screening of people looking to join will help. New members posts must be approved before appearing on posts may help too. I've been a member for almost a year now on Trains forums, and primarily visit the Railroad forums, and the troublemaking posts such as from the other night are rare compared to the total number of posts. Moderating would be a better answer, than making it a pay site, unless you make the forums free with a subscription to Trains, as others have suggested here.. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[jeaton]

Bergie,

Arriving at the office with ten hours of work to finish by a 5pm deadline and then finding e-mails about trash on the forums doesn't sound like much fun. I wouldn't oppose a modest fee for myself, but I would hate to see that knock out some, especially the school age kids that show genuine interest in railroads.

As far as the moderating function-heck, shoot and ask questions later. If someone felt that you weren't fair you have a mailbox, let them contact you.

Jay Eaton

[edblysard]

Well, well, well....

Be waiting for something like this for a while...was wondering when the pay to play idea would kick in...

First, it will not keep the trolls out, especially the multi named one...he, or she, is here for a personal reason, and wont mind paying a small fee to cause trouble, in fact, once they pay, they will use that fact as a justification to be allowed to do so....

As for me, off the top of my head I can name three members who dont use a made up screen name, myself, Mark Hemphill, and Dan Harmon...

Cant speak for them, but for myself, I figured that if I had an opinion or story I didnt mind sharing in public, then I shouldn't mind my name going with it.

What you see in my profile is real, the railroad where I work is real, my name and email adress are real and correct...you got a beef with what I say here, either respond here, or email me and chew me out to your hearts content.

I dont believe in censorship, but I do believe basic common courtsey, good manners, and respect towards others, no matter how far from my point of view they might stand.

Not to say my slate is pristine.

And yes, there are some, not to name names, well, ok, some like Clevelandrocks, who show up here, and stick out their chins, begging someone to pop them a good one, and it would appear there are quite a few who don't mind to oblige them.

Then there are the trainfinder, kissmycaboose, hot and itchy, cinderdick...those who sole purpose was to take the enjoyment out of this place...they succeded quite well at that.

With that in mind, it now appears I will have to pay to read garbarge posted by the trolls...hummm....

They already have managed to drive a few good posters away, and have succeded in making this place no where near as much fun as it was a year ago.

It used to be I logged on to see who was here, and have a good time discussing the hobby and industry which I make a living at...
but now, the first thing I see is the moron page, you know, page 1, where the trolls have managed to creat enough problems and enough dissent that their postings and threads have almost the entire front page to themselves, and the interesting stuff, you know, the real reason most of us came here, are two pages back.

Anyone see wabash1 here?
How about Scottydog? He got tired of it last year and left, hasnt been back since....

If you think about it, quite a few members, who contributed a lot, have quitely left, and not returned, and for good reason.


Remember when Mookie had a whole bunch of interesting questions, and got a whole bunch of interesting replies?
Remember when Matt and Mookie "fought" over the chocolate cake, and both of them won?

When was the last time one of Mookies questions was on the top of page one?

Not for a while, because before anyone got around to answering her question, they would run off to bite on troll bait.

Guess it tasted better than the cake?

Remember when we came here to talk about trains and the people who run them, not tripe and the people who write it?

We, by responding to the bait the trollers throw out, have allowed them to degrade this forum to the level of a teenage chat room, where the only thing of interest is is who is slamming who, and what new insults can we come up with.

It used to be, when you turned on my computer, Trains.com was the front page, it came up automaticly on default...not any more, I replaced it with Google, because a blank search engine holds more promise of fun...I have to look for this page now.

Why?

Because I noticed I dont bother to look as often as I used too, and post even less, after reading Bergies posting on Classic Trains, I realized why.

The trolls have won, if not by sheer numbers, by assimilation...we are becomming them.

I used to come here to have fun, enjoy discussions with people of like interest, and read the intelligent, often funny comments about my industry...it was a well kept secret, a place with a good group of smart people who enjoyed each others company...not anymore....

I was going to say if Kalmbach can add their forum fee to my subscriptions,(I take three of their magazines) fine, but after a few minutes thought, I dont think it is worth even that, after all, I can see adults act and speak like children all day long at work, for free.

If the fee idea does happen, then I dont see the sense of paying to have a forum membership on a forum I chose to not read regular anymore...because the people who made it interesting and fun, have all been run off.

I know of at least one person who dosnt have a computer at home, she logs in here from work, so the pay to play wont work, the accounting dept most likely will kick it back at her...so one of the most interesting people here will be gone.

Sad it comes to that.

For what its worth, it was a pretty fun ride, I made some good friends, met a few of you in person, enjoyed it a lot, and, when this was a forum, not a verbal train wreck, I learned a lot I didnt know, about trains, people, and myself..

Sooo...guess I will see ya on the next run, you guys have a safe trip and a good Christmas...stay cut in.

Ed

[conrailman]

Keep it a Free forum.[:)]

[Modelcar]

....I don't put up my actual name on the forum box we write to but it's not because I am ashamed of anything I write...It's just in case someone cares to cause trouble in the background and that's the only reason. I have much data of me on my Bio and is I suppose available for anyone who wants to seek it out and do what ever....
I agree with Ed above... the forum is much lower now in good back and forth data and conversation one to another than it was in the past and perhaps the only defense against what we have now that is making it that way is to completely ignore it.....Just do not answer or rebut any of it...act as though it is not present. After a while surely the invader will tire of his /her caustic blabber with no feedback and simply stop....
It's the only way to act to help it go away I can think of...and.....I too really don't look forward to a pay as one goes to perticipate on a program such as this...and I too am a Kambach subscriber and have been for decades. I'd rather stay and do what we do each day but if the pay function comes, I'll have to reevalluate what to do.

[FThunder11]

Just remeber, you have teenagers and younger people, who, first, dont have credit cards, and second are only here to learn about trains. Yes my parents subscribe to Trains and Modle Railroader, but I know if you make us pay, I'm outta here, because i sure as heck dont have aredit card, and my parents aren't giving it out over the net, so if thats the way its gonna be, then once that comes into play, I'm gone.

[Modelcar]

....One other thought that was suggested in a previous post....For the moderator of this forum...move into a strict mode of operation....As the person previous said shoot and let them ask questions later to the moderator...{paraphrasing}. Settle it with a priviate conversation on email...Let the moderator weed out the ones with the very rough edges.

[Sterling1]

h

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

As just the token cranky ol' railroad guy on this board, I have to say that if it is going to become another TO style pay per view I'm not interested. This site is generally fun and has a good group of folks overall. Unfortunately, there are a few who need to get with the program or get on down the road...

I already pay enough just to be on the net. Also, although many of you know some things about me I'd prefer not to reveal my true identity for several reasons. If that becomes a prerequisite for membership I'll have to go elserwhere. I don't maintain multiple identities, so that is not the issue.

LC

Same here LC. When I updated my profile I disposed of some information that I decided was too personal and with all the fools that like to blow this place into the drain, I wouldn't know who wasn't _________ freak who wasn't registered. The superhighway isn't all that safe . . .

[Sterling1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jabrown1971

I have to say, that except for my responses to the Grumpy man from the other night, I have posted what I feel are decent and respectable posts. I never try to purposely put anyone down and try to get them to think outside the boundaries. I apologize for participating the other night and am sorry. Thanks for not tossing me out Bergie. NOW-I like trains.com a lot, currently subscribe to MR but Trains lapsed long ago-1991 to be exact, and MR is aboout to expire to. I feel that If I am required to pay by Credit/Debit card, then no thanks. Answering a question that would get you a membership is okay, but you shouldn't have to buy anything to be a member. As for not taking Yahoo, MSN, Hotmail email accts. Well that's not cool either. While I have a valid e-mail account from my employer, I don't think they would be too happy if that was the email I provided for this site. OVerall, I have to say that the few people who come on here to cause trouble is small. Dealing with them on an individual basis is a better choice. Bergie, perhaps a better way to do this is to sift through all known email addresses and ask for a response from that person. If none received in a timely manner-1-3-5 days lock them out. Thanks

There are some who don't access their inboxes too often, or sometimes there are system glitches, so the time day thing may not work. However, how does one unlock an account?

[Sterling1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by piouslion

Bergie, No one respects decorum in the forum more than I. From what I have seen, those that come in to cause a "unnessary rukus" are delt with and in the case of most of the three, four and five stars they show a since of class that is rarely out of line. If they do go out line (out of order, to use an antiquated phrase), appologies are often either public or emailed and from what I can see are accepted.

I remember a post I put up and got mature answers which put me in my place. That's one thing I am thankful for from decent, earnest members. I can't stand those who drive Trains forums into the ground now that I've owned up.

[Sterling1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

If there is to be a fee, and I am not promoting that idea, I would prefer the method Mr Fish floated, ie. considered part of the price of a magazine subscription for current Kalmbach subscribers with our subscriber number used to register. Any actual fees would be assessed to non-subscribers..

I agree to some degree of this but would it increase the price of those who already subscribe?