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Atlanta major bridge collaspe

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Posted by Norm48327 on Tuesday, April 4, 2017 2:16 PM

I posted on an aviation forum that if they need the bridge replaced quickly they should contact the appropriate people on the railroad and ask how they entice outside contractors to get the job done expeditiously.

Not many took me seriously. Got a lot of "Yeah, Right" answers.

Norm


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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, April 4, 2017 3:24 PM

Norm48327
I posted on an aviation forum that if they need the bridge replaced quickly they should contact the appropriate people on the railroad and ask how they entice outside contractors to get the job done expeditiously.

Not many took me seriously. Got a lot of "Yeah, Right" answers.

My understanding - CSX repaired the line damage from East of Mobile to New Orleans caused by Katrina and had the plant in operation before the various State agencies had even let contracts for the repairs required to US90 and I-10 through the same area.  Katrina was August 31, 2005 and CSX was back in operation March 1, 2006.

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Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, April 4, 2017 4:02 PM

BaltACD
My understanding - CSX repaired the line damage from East of Mobile to New Orleans caused by Katrina and had the plant in operation before the various State agencies had even let contracts for the repairs required to US90 and I-10 through the same area.  Katrina was August 31, 2005 and CSX was back in operation March 1, 2006.

One of the advantages of being your own repair shop.  Governments have to come up with specs, advertise and solicit bids, review the bids, select the best one, re-justify their selection when a losing bidder complains (this may repeat), award the bid, find out the selected contractor isn't really capable of doing the job (so it will take even longer to complete), etc, etc, etc...

All the railroad has to do is say "we need X ties, and Y rails, and z miscellaneous parts to put it all together, order them, and start work when they arrive.  If supplier A can't meet the need for an item, they can just go to supplier B.

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Posted by samfp1943 on Tuesday, April 4, 2017 4:38 PM

BaltACD

 

 
Norm48327
I posted on an aviation forum that if they need the bridge replaced quickly they should contact the appropriate people on the railroad and ask how they entice outside contractors to get the job done expeditiously.

Not many took me seriously. Got a lot of "Yeah, Right" answers.

 

 

My understanding - CSX repaired the line damage from East of Mobile to New Orleans caused by Katrina and had the plant in operation before the various State agencies had even let contracts for the repairs required to US90 and I-10 through the same area.  Katrina was August 31, 2005 and CSX was back in operation March 1, 2006.

 

     I recall there was a story and photos in TRAINS, post-Katrina (Fall or Winter of 2006 (?) of one of the long railroad spans along the Gulf; photos showed a line of  varied construction cranes from a number of contractors.     Working  together they were lifting a long section of railroad that had been blown off the trestle.They were tasked with working together to get the Gulf line back on-line, asap. 

 

 


 

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Posted by mudchicken on Tuesday, April 4, 2017 5:10 PM

Bailey/Acrow Bridge, slow the traffic lane speeds and maintain service until you get your act together on the redesign. (You can rent bridges, believe it or not)...The limiting factor may be the least common denominator urban driver and the impact loadings from the bigger trucks because of the interstate highway.

Sadly, the in-house capability of even the big railroads is shrinking. The brainpower and the reserve capabilities has done nothing but shrink after Staggers and the aggressive short term behavior of the beancounters under threat from the Wall Street trash looking to maximize earnings at the expense of all else.

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by Modelcar on Wednesday, April 5, 2017 9:15 AM

Good morning Fans...Upon seeing what happened and what contributed to distroying this bridge section...I wondered if no one with responsibility didn't ever think  about storing combustionable material under these structures. I'm sure it is space seemingly ready to put to us....However, with these tragic & damaging  possibilities....And of course, costs...

Quentin

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Posted by Modelcar on Wednesday, April 5, 2017 9:36 AM

Absolutely...!  Don't we see this capability of railroads rebuilding infrastructure much quicker then the Highway counterparts looking back thru some recent history...

Quentin

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Posted by tree68 on Wednesday, April 5, 2017 11:53 AM

Modelcar
Upon seeing what happened and what contributed to destroying this bridge section...I wondered if no one with responsibility didn't ever think about storing combustionable material under these structures.

Probably not.  Like tires, PVC left to itself is pretty much inert - it won't self-combust.  The reels holding it were steel.  There probably were no sources of ignition there.

Given the choice, I'd bet most folks would choose those reels of PVC tubing over tires to store there.  What can happen? (This ignores the point that nothing should be stored there, of course.)

Clearly, something did happen - someone started a fire, and once the plastic was burning it fed on itself.

This is why the fire service can't save your home these days - new homes are build of "toothpicks and cardboard" and are filled with plastic furnishings.  In some construction, the plasterboard is glued to walls and ceilings, instead of nailed or screwed... 

 

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Posted by Norm48327 on Wednesday, April 5, 2017 3:16 PM

Larry,

Based on previous conversations we've had you likely know that in the sixties I was a paid professional firefighter on Waterford FD. Those were the days houses wers "stick-built" with real wood and TV's were encased in wooden boxes. Plastics as we know them today had yet to become commonplace. The man I worked with and I went into a  lot of fires knowing wood smoke was our worst enemy; sometimes foregoing personal protection in favor of saving others from doom or financial ruin. We did, in most occasions accomplish our mission. We kept low to the floor in such instances A coat and helmet was the best protection we had. I hate to think what would happen to us in today's environment with plastics and the toxic emissions they give off.  Thanks to Scott air packs and the equivalent equipment or a lot of today's firefighters would be in dire straits because they were willing to sacrifice themselves to help others. We lucked out back then as we had the courage to fight some fires from the inside of the houses. Would I take that chance today? No way in hell! Thanks to chemistry the answer has to be a resounding "NO!". Firefighters have no chance against the toxicity they give off. Without personal protection they will be done in summarly.

I only put in six years at the job. Your dedication to the service is commendable and admired.

Norm


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Posted by samfp1943 on Wednesday, April 5, 2017 4:24 PM

Just a note: In one of the linked articles by other Posters here there was the information that the three individuals arrested(and Charged) were under the bridge, in an area that was 'used' to smoke crack.     Apparently, the article further stated that 'they' ['aledged'Crackheads'] conspired to set a plastic(?) chair on one of the spools of fibre optic cable(and/or pvc tubing?) and the ignited it... causing the fire. 

[As the father of a deceased firefighter, I could not agree more with Norm's posted comment!]

 

 

 


 

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Posted by Paul of Covington on Thursday, April 6, 2017 3:34 PM

mudchicken
Bailey/Acrow Bridge, slow the traffic lane speeds and maintain service until you get your act together on the redesign. (You can rent bridges, believe it or not)...The limiting factor may be the least common denominator urban driver and the impact loadings from the bigger trucks because of the interstate highway.

   That may have been what was done after Hurricane Katrina washed away part of I-10 where it crosses the eastern end of Lake Pontchartrain.   And I do remember that there was concern that the sections were being damaged by trucks not heeding the speed limit.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/paulofcov/33067564323/in/dateposted-public/

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Thursday, April 6, 2017 8:56 PM

mudchicken
Bailey/Acrow Bridge, slow the traffic lane speeds and maintain service until you get your act together on the redesign. (You can rent bridges, believe it or not)...The limiting factor may be the least common denominator urban driver and the impact loadings from the bigger trucks because of the interstate highway.

Sadly, the in-house capability of even the big railroads is shrinking. The brainpower and the reserve capabilities has done nothing but shrink after Staggers and the aggressive short term behavior of the beancounters under threat from the Wall Street trash looking to maximize earnings at the expense of all else.

"+1" to both paragraphs. 

On the temporary Bailey/ Acrow bridges, one thing working in favor is that the bridge spans are over solid ground, not a stream or railroad (as I understand it).  Thus, the spans could be kept short and well-supported by frequent piers/ columns stacked up on the ground.

- PDN.   

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
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Posted by blue streak 1 on Thursday, April 6, 2017 10:17 PM

No link yet but our local CH 11 TV found a  "SECRET"  skate boarding facility under another bridge underpass.  State DOT said "what skateboarding "  Now claim to demolish it tomorrow.  What only 5 days to discover it within sight of collaspe ?

Someone else to fall on a sword ?

LINK FOUND

http://www.11alive.com/traffic/i-85-collapse/photos-hidden-skate-park-under-i-85/429240362

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Posted by rdamon on Friday, April 7, 2017 7:10 AM

They probably used some of GDOTs "stored" concrete. :)

Yesterday I heard that other states were conducting inspections under their bridges. 

http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/east/2017/04/07/447178.htm

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Posted by BOB WITHORN on Friday, April 7, 2017 7:31 AM

(Being that plastic is just solid gasoline (like the furnishings in your house), I'm sure it burned pretty hot.)

..

  Not exactly, but close.   Plactics are made by cracking ethane, propane, natural gas to produce ethylene and propylene and adding a catalyst to make Polypropylene, Polyethylene and other polymers. Gasoline comes out of the oil refining process before ethane and propane because they are lighter.  So actually it's worse than gasoline because they actually burn hotter.

 

Bob

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, April 7, 2017 8:59 AM

rdamon

They probably used some of GDOTs "stored" concrete. :)

Yesterday I heard that other states were conducting inspections under their bridges. 

http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/east/2017/04/07/447178.htm

 

 
But that still does not take care of RR bridges.  After what happened to MNRR in NY City that should also be a priority.
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Posted by tree68 on Friday, April 7, 2017 9:55 AM

BOB WITHORN
...Not exactly, but close. ...

And that's enough.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by BOB WITHORN on Friday, April 7, 2017 3:05 PM

Yes Larry it is!!  I's just givin you somethin for trivia day.

 

 

 

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, April 7, 2017 5:56 PM

Don't forget, you have beancounters in these organizations that view areas under bridges as revenue producing real estate.  There is no profit to be made from vacant, unleased ground when the owner uses the 'air rights' of the property.

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Posted by oltmannd on Monday, April 10, 2017 8:45 AM

Here's an interesting article in local paper - sort of higher altitude view.  Shows that MARTA under Keith Parker is doing some good things - has very positive attitude.

http://www.ajc.com/news/transportation/what-marta-teaching-other-cities-after-the-collapse/iWsHgbXtTNuXVLrZAKTgZI/

Target date for bridge repair is June 15.  GDOT got waivers around all sorts of rules to fast-track the repair.

Gwinnett County transit also doing what it can to help by running some rush hour service from commuter park and rides to MARTA Doraville and Chamblee stations (last two stops parallel to I-85).  A "remote parking" alternative since lots at Doraville and Chamblee have been overflowing.  Admittedly, it's a drop in the bucket compared to I-85 flow, but everything helps.

My daugter reported her normal 45 minute commute along US 78 was 1:10 this morning - a lot more traffic than normal.  US 78 is a useful alternate for people living southeast of I-85 who commute to midtown/downtown.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by rdamon on Monday, April 17, 2017 11:05 AM

They are starting to place the beams ...

Time Lapse camera

https://app.oxblue.com/open/GADOT/I85BridgeRebuild

 

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, April 17, 2017 1:06 PM

rdamon
They are starting to place the beams ...

Time Lapse camera

https://app.oxblue.com/open/GADOT/I85BridgeRebuild

Well, they are fortunate that the piers are still in suitable condition to be used into the future.

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Posted by Shadow the Cats owner on Monday, April 17, 2017 2:08 PM

Well while Atlanta is dealing with this major issue with the 85 they just lost 20 Westbound out of the city due to the road buckling due to gas main failing. 

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/dekalb-county/part-of-i-20-buckling-lanes-blocked/513329735

So now they have 2 out of 3 major interstates in that city closed with road failures.  Right now my drivers into and out of that area are being told if not making deliveries head thru there between midnight and 4am only and after 9pm if possible.  Yeah we are also telling our customers south of there maybe some traffic related delays and that we are doing everything possible to meet there demand.  All of them understand and are laughing at Atlanta and their issues. 

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, April 17, 2017 2:17 PM

BaltACD
 
 

Well, they are fortunate that the piers are still in suitable condition to be used into the future.

 

 
Actually if you go back a week of pictures you will see piers were not in  place.  All piers were demolished.  They  are using very fast drying concrete for all pour in place concrete,
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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Monday, April 17, 2017 2:57 PM

PennDOT's "High Early Strength (or Set)" concrete is designed to attain its specified strength within 3 days.  It's been used for piers and bridge decks (not beams) where time is a critical factor, even though that's not a normal use: 

http://www.paconstructors.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Provisions-Clean-Version.pdf 

Most of the concrete in a pier is for stability and to hold the rebar in place at the correct location to carry the tension.  Typically only like 20 - 30% of the cross-section of the concrete is needed for the compression load.  An area of concrete (rated for 3,000 psi) equivalent to 1-1/2 sheets of standard letter size paper in pure compression is enough to hold up a full-weight locomotive (420,000 lbs.).  Think of a loco perched on top of a block in that shape a few feet high (a column of that size taller than that would be too slender and likely would buckle sideways, like a thin board on end would). 

- PDN. 

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Posted by rdamon on Monday, April 17, 2017 3:00 PM

Amazing ... since I posted the link they have all the beams in place on one span.

 

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, April 17, 2017 3:45 PM

The commuter rail deniers for Atlanta seem to have gone into hiding.  Early this morning a Haz Mat tractor trailer overturned on the downtown connector ( I-75, I-85 ) Both directions closed for awhile and southbound closed until about noon. 

Then this morning the I-20 westbound east of downtown ( DeKalb Co ) buckled upward and seriously injured a motorcyclist in the HOV lane by being thrown upward .  Finger pointing abounds right now but was some utility work ( gas ) going on under roadway. At least Tuesday to repair.  Wonder what caused roadway to raise up ?

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Posted by mudchicken on Monday, April 17, 2017 4:36 PM

They just blew up the N-S freeway (I-20 WB) after a gas leak. Any takers for crisis #3?This photo shows a portion of Interstate 20 that buckled because of an underground gas leak in Atlanta. (Eric Stirgus/Atlanta Journal-Constitution via AP)

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by rdamon on Monday, April 17, 2017 4:55 PM

We did have this little incident this morning ...

Now we have a Braves game and a thunderstorm ... :)

 

I next we will have Locusts!!

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, April 17, 2017 9:47 PM

Media reports have Atlanta gas light doing the work.  Report gas line was abandoned and was being filled with concrete. Evidently natural gas exploded. So question is was there some residual gas inside line or outside line in soil  ?.

Biggest question is why didn't the company first flood pipeline with inert nitrogen before inserting concrete ?. 

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