I read that the driver didn't follow the directions provided by the tour company. There were 5-6 grade crossings to the west of Main St before the I-110 overpass. The one closest to 110, whose street name escapes me now, didn't have the severe hump of the Main St crossing, and was the one he was *supposed* to use.
sounds like the bus bottomed out and got stuck at the grade crossing. He probably was not familiar with the area and didn't know where a lower crossing would be. When our railfan group did a ferry boat crossing with our bus, we were told it was steep on the other side pulling off the ferry, so they recommended the passengers stay off the bus until our driver pulled up the grade. That's what we did and it almost dragged bottom as an empty bus. And it's not as big and heavy as the buses today, it's a classic 1958 Trailways. We boarded after he got up the hill. So the bus was probably too heavy and couldn't make it over the hump and got stuck. Sounded like there was probably time to get people off the bus, 5-10 minutes or at least get some of them off, as some seniors don't move too fast, especially those going to casinos. Too bad this happened, but bus companies need to scope out the area where they are driving to make sure this kind of stuff don't happen.
A vehicle crossing within 500 feet of an approaching train is no big deal to train crews. It happens hundreds of times each day. Because the fouling of the crossing vehicle is momentary, the odds are against the perfect timing needed for the train and vehicle to occupy the crossing at the same time. However, a large bus standing still on a grade crossing for five minutes is a very big deal. After five minutes including a prolonged observation of an approaching train, the odds of the vehicle clearing the crossing become very small.
I wonder if the driver had any idea as to what the trouble was. I also wonder if the passengers had gotten off the bus would have risen enough to clear the hump. All this is too late, though.
Johnny
VGN Jess If it was there as long as 5 minutes before being struck, if you were a passenger, wouldn't you have gotten out and walked to the other side telling the driver to pick you up if he gets "unstuck"; I sure would have. No excuse for anyone being on that bus for 5 minutes stuck on the tracks.
If it was there as long as 5 minutes before being struck, if you were a passenger, wouldn't you have gotten out and walked to the other side telling the driver to pick you up if he gets "unstuck"; I sure would have. No excuse for anyone being on that bus for 5 minutes stuck on the tracks.
Maybe the driver told the passengers to remain seated. Maybe he worried about starting a panic and getting people killed in the crush.
VGN JessNo excuse for anyone being on that bus for 5 minutes stuck on the tracks.
"We'll be off in a minute..."
But you're right. And they don't walk down the tracks, either, in either direction...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
BaltACDIn many cases, appropriate flagging distance is outside the jurisdiction area of where the incident has actually happened.
That's why we have radios.
An area fire department was dispatched tonight for the specific purpose of closing off access to a road for another department.
Besides, I'm not going to complain if somebody from Podunk Hollow comes into my district to do something like that. I might like a courtesy notification, but the job comes first. We don't stop at the edge of our district if it turns out an incident is in a neighboring district - we just make sure our neighbors knows, too.
tree68 dehusman Plus fire and police generally put flares out a hundred feet or less, when the train needs them 1000's of feet in advance. Which is why I gave a presentation to area fire chiefs a while back, emphasizing flagging at least a quarter mile in each direction, or the next crossing in each direction (assuming it's more than a quarter mile...), whichever can be reached first.
dehusman Plus fire and police generally put flares out a hundred feet or less, when the train needs them 1000's of feet in advance.
Plus fire and police generally put flares out a hundred feet or less, when the train needs them 1000's of feet in advance.
Which is why I gave a presentation to area fire chiefs a while back, emphasizing flagging at least a quarter mile in each direction, or the next crossing in each direction (assuming it's more than a quarter mile...), whichever can be reached first.
In many cases, appropriate flagging distance is outside the jurisdiction area of where the incident has actually happened.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
... While the state's Section 400 monies are fixed for crossing improvements, maybe some of MS-DOT's other funding might now be redirected? Possibly more of the taxes the railroads contribute can be spent on crossings instead of highways?
In this 2013 street view it looks like this crossing takes a beating.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
samfp1943Calling 911 could quickly have the police on the scene with more than enough lights and flares to set up in both directions from the crossing.
As was said, maybe, maybe not. Depends on how quickly a car is available and can get to the scene. Factor in a minute or two to process the call, then provide the information to the patrol. It's not an instant process. Add to that a busload of people who don't even know they're on Main Street. A patrol might have ended up being first on the scene after the collision occurred.
One report said the group had breakfast in one place and was headed to the other. Given the time of the incident, I can only guess they ate, then gambled, then were headed north. There is at least one casino at the north end of Main Street.
The response standard for fire and EMS is under 8 minutes...
samfp1943 Calling 911 could quickly have the police on the scene with more than enough lights and flares to set up in both directions from the crossing.
Calling 911 could quickly have the police on the scene with more than enough lights and flares to set up in both directions from the crossing.
Well, maybe. Maybe not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyIXfhTka-A
Jeff
mudchickenWithout the DOT#....."Which Main Street?"
If there are multiple Main Street crossings in the identified area, ALL get protected.
Without the DOT#....."Which Main Street?"
tree68 The CSX number posted on the blue signs goes to the railroad police, I believe in JAX. They've got the system at their fingertips, though, and will know what crossing you are at if you can at least give them a locale and road name. I'm sure they can be in pretty quick contact with the appropriate dispatcher. Balt might have more to add.
The CSX number posted on the blue signs goes to the railroad police, I believe in JAX. They've got the system at their fingertips, though, and will know what crossing you are at if you can at least give them a locale and road name.
I'm sure they can be in pretty quick contact with the appropriate dispatcher. Balt might have more to add.
CSX's PSCC accesses a data base of road crossings that can be searched by FRA ID number, Street Name, City, county, railraod milepost - any 'shred' of information that a caller can provide. In the conversation with the caller the 'correct' identification of the road crossing will be deduced. The data base record for the crossing includes the Dispatcher and Chief Dispatcher who handle that particular crossing. The Dispatcher and/or the Chief are then contacted by the PSCC person handling the call on the 'Emergency Line' a specific telephone number for each and every Dispatcher's desk and Chief's desk - the call FLASHES on the Avtec communications console and if not answered within 2 rings begins to RING on a genuine telephone. Instructions for all dispatching personnel are to drop what you are doing and answer the Emergency Line and do what ever is necessary to protect the situation. Emergency Line numbers are only made known to the PSCC.
The PSCC and the computer applications that support it are a result of a misrouted Emergency Call from a outside party to one Division's Dispatcher's office; not knowing that there were parallell tracks at that location on another Division. The 1st Division notified took appropriate actions. The 2nd Division who was opeating a train through the location was not notified and therefore took no protective actions. You can guess the result.
Having dealt with the public in the days before the PSCC and the FRA ID plates were affixed to each crossing - the hardest thing to do was to establish where HERE was. Railroads are identified by Milepost, civilians are identified by street and hundred block. As a routine matter, railroads don't have any record of streets that run parallell to tracks - only streets that cross tracks.
While it was not involved in the Biloxi incident - Train Dispatchers do not protect road crossings in the body of yard territory - Yardmaster's do and their procedures are not as involved as the rules governing Train Dispatchers protection of road crossings at grade.
The railroad police are right there with the dispatchers.
First reported sign of the ambulance chasers showing up tonight. Knuckleheads are busy going after everybody but who they really should.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/tour-bus-hit-by-freight-train-in-deadly-crash-didnt-take-planned-route/
Response time at those centers are typically less than 30 sec, the railroad center I am familiar with (not the CSX) have direct lines from the emergency center to the dispatcher desks, there are red lights on the dispatch desks that go off when an emergency call comes in, plus it sets of a warning light on the supervisor's desk. So probably a minute or 2 from initial call till the dispatcher has enough info to start notifying trains.
Provided somebody calls.
On most of the train trips I have been on there has been at least one vehicle who crosses the tracks 500 ft or less in front of a train. Less than 2% of the time we hit a vehicle.
RDG467 Euclid It seems like a dangerous situation that should not be allowed to exist. I suppose some drivers don’t notice the sign, but I suspect that far more do not assimilate the full meaning and implication of the message. It seems pretty obvious that something is not working there as evidenced by all the accidents and deep gouges in the pavement as it humps up over the track. One of today's pix shows the crossing gates lying on the ground after the bus knocked it over. On the post is a blue sign with an 800 # for CSX and the crossing information. Wondering why no one on the bus (ie the DRIVER) noticed it after the bus had been stuck for more than a few minutes? Reports were that it was there as long as 5 minutes before being struck. The trackage is about as tangent as you can get through Biloxi, and given the fact that the bus was shoved about 300 ft, the train was going fairly slowly before impact. Why was the 800 number not called? My two cents is the average driver, truck and bus drivers don't know it exists. For the regular drive in PA, there is no reference what to do when stuck on the tracks. Don't know if there is a requirement for obtaining a CDL. My question, if the driver did call, how long would he have waited for someone to pick-up? What are the response procedures for the person answering the call or is it 50 question? Would those procedures had stop this specific train or would a call go out to haul or issue a slow order for all trains on the division/line?
Euclid It seems like a dangerous situation that should not be allowed to exist. I suppose some drivers don’t notice the sign, but I suspect that far more do not assimilate the full meaning and implication of the message. It seems pretty obvious that something is not working there as evidenced by all the accidents and deep gouges in the pavement as it humps up over the track.
It seems like a dangerous situation that should not be allowed to exist. I suppose some drivers don’t notice the sign, but I suspect that far more do not assimilate the full meaning and implication of the message. It seems pretty obvious that something is not working there as evidenced by all the accidents and deep gouges in the pavement as it humps up over the track.
One of today's pix shows the crossing gates lying on the ground after the bus knocked it over. On the post is a blue sign with an 800 # for CSX and the crossing information. Wondering why no one on the bus (ie the DRIVER) noticed it after the bus had been stuck for more than a few minutes? Reports were that it was there as long as 5 minutes before being struck. The trackage is about as tangent as you can get through Biloxi, and given the fact that the bus was shoved about 300 ft, the train was going fairly slowly before impact.
Why was the 800 number not called? My two cents is the average driver, truck and bus drivers don't know it exists. For the regular drive in PA, there is no reference what to do when stuck on the tracks. Don't know if there is a requirement for obtaining a CDL.
My question, if the driver did call, how long would he have waited for someone to pick-up? What are the response procedures for the person answering the call or is it 50 question? Would those procedures had stop this specific train or would a call go out to haul or issue a slow order for all trains on the division/line?
No worries, Murphy Siding. I need to stop over thinking this situation and wait for more data!!!
BaltACD RDG467 The NTSB is supposed to hold it's next press conference at 4 pm (Central) today. One of the earlier posts showed a max speed of 45 for this stretch of track. If the train was only doing 26 when the emergency application occured, which brought the speed to 19 mph at the time of collision, perhaps the engineer had reacted sooner by slowing, with the hope that the bus could free itself, before the loco reached that crossing. Perhaps if the train had been preceeded by a Flagman on horseback the event would have been prevented.
RDG467 The NTSB is supposed to hold it's next press conference at 4 pm (Central) today. One of the earlier posts showed a max speed of 45 for this stretch of track. If the train was only doing 26 when the emergency application occured, which brought the speed to 19 mph at the time of collision, perhaps the engineer had reacted sooner by slowing, with the hope that the bus could free itself, before the loco reached that crossing.
Perhaps if the train had been preceeded by a Flagman on horseback the event would have been prevented.
Undoubtedly, it would have. If the bus had taken another crossing, that would've prevented it, too.
I was referencing my previous ponderings about the collision, and was trying to give the engineer more of the benefit of the doubt vis-a-vis sightlines and how to decide where to apply max braking. I did not explain my last post in those terms, as I see upon re-reading it.
If he saw the bus from 2000+ feet and started to slow from 45 by reducing throttle, in the hopes the bus could free itself before the train got too close, going into emergency at 25 mph makes a bit more sense (to me).
If the train was only doing 25, saw the bus from 2000+ feet and went into emergency 500 feet before the bus-fouled crossing without any prior slowing, that makes me wonder a bit more about the crew's actions.
I know, I'm speculating when I said I shouldn't until more info has been verified and released. I'll smack my own hand and try to do better this afternoon.....
The NTSB is supposed to hold it's next press conference at 4 pm (Central) today. One of the earlier posts showed a max speed of 45 for this stretch of track. If the train was only doing 26 when the emergency application occured, which brought the speed to 19 mph at the time of collision, perhaps the engineer had reacted sooner by slowing, with the hope that the bus could free itself, before the loco reached that crossing.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
RDG467The NTSB is supposed to hold it's next press conference at 4 pm (Central) today. One of the earlier posts showed a max speed of 45 for this stretch of track. If the train was only doing 26 when the emergency application occured, which brought the speed to 19 mph at the time of collision, perhaps the engineer had reacted sooner by slowing, with the hope that the bus could free itself, before the loco reached that crossing.
Cotton Belt MP104Euclid: Apology, I stand corrected. Some time ago I mentioned something I would have done if noticing the situation. Always carrying jumper cables, I would have shunted the rails before doing anything else. Having seen how long it takes to go the phone route of alerting crew and then being too late to avoid a crash ……drop RED in front of them. Anyone? I was told that even some heavy locos don’t provide the adequate low resistance short. Seems hard to believe but then I am no signal guy. For sure I would TRY to get immediate notification to the crew. I know it is not the proper shut but is it not even worth a try? Endmrw0308171331
I had also considered jumper cables. There were discussions along that line some time ago, where somewhere a locomotive was used to run some freight cars back and forth on a little used stretch of track to polish the rails to insure that a passenger train would make good contact. Then someone mentioned that an intermittent problem with false signals was caused by a piece of steel banding that had fallen across the rails. So, I guess the moral of this story is that nothing is absolute. I still think it is worth a try.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Euclid Paul of Covington I have no experience in this matter, but I wouldn't be surprised if over and over, every day, crews saw vehicles momentarily stopped in crossings that moved off before the train reached the crossing. If they threw the train into emergency in every one of these situations, they'd be doing it over and over every day. This was one case where the vehicle couldn't move, but the crew couldn't have known that from a distance. That's my opinion, but I'd like to hear from someone who knows. I am guessing that the train was heading east on the map. It is said that they dumped the air 500 ft from the bus. The distance from the bus on Main Street to Lameuse Street, the next crossing to the west, is 450 ft.
Paul of Covington I have no experience in this matter, but I wouldn't be surprised if over and over, every day, crews saw vehicles momentarily stopped in crossings that moved off before the train reached the crossing. If they threw the train into emergency in every one of these situations, they'd be doing it over and over every day. This was one case where the vehicle couldn't move, but the crew couldn't have known that from a distance. That's my opinion, but I'd like to hear from someone who knows.
I have no experience in this matter, but I wouldn't be surprised if over and over, every day, crews saw vehicles momentarily stopped in crossings that moved off before the train reached the crossing. If they threw the train into emergency in every one of these situations, they'd be doing it over and over every day. This was one case where the vehicle couldn't move, but the crew couldn't have known that from a distance. That's my opinion, but I'd like to hear from someone who knows.
I am guessing that the train was heading east on the map. It is said that they dumped the air 500 ft from the bus. The distance from the bus on Main Street to Lameuse Street, the next crossing to the west, is 450 ft.
I hope that all of the readers know that this took place in BiLUXi, and not BiLOCKSi.
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