NKP guy ... Speaking of that, the four tracks that connect the NE Corridor at (or near) New Rochelle to the tracks to & from GCT were built/owned/operated by whom?
...
Speaking of that, the four tracks that connect the NE Corridor at (or near) New Rochelle to the tracks to & from GCT were built/owned/operated by whom?
They are NH, and have their catenary. NH passenger electrics had 3rd rail shoes that could operate on NYC and LIRR type 3rd rail.
Excerpt from Engineers of Dreams: Great Bridge Builders and the Spanning of America by Henry Petroski (1996)
http://publicism.info/history/engineers/5.html
As Lindenthal grew older, each birthday was noted by the press. On the occasion of his eightieth, in 1930, for example, he was reported to have planned to spend part of the day at the office of the North River Bridge Company, in Jersey City, and the rest of the day at his home in Metuchen, New Jersey. He later admitted to being a bit miffed that his associate on the bridge project, the consulting engineer Francis Lee Stuart, called him to come into Manhattan for an important business lunch at the Engineers Club. It proved to be a surprise birthday luncheon, perhaps marred only by his being asked if he was not cheered that the war was over and that the War Department was going to reconsider his proposed North River Bridge. “He waved the inquiry aside,” however, saying “he would rather not discuss the bridge on his birthday.”
On his eighty-first birthday, in the year when the George Washington Bridge was to be opened at 179th Street, The New York Times reported that the War Department had still not ruled on Lindenthal’s bridge 120 blocks to the south. Nevertheless, he was now confident that it would, as he spent the day hard at work in his office from eight-thirty in the morning till five in the evening. The application for a permit was eventually “pigeonholed for eight or nine years,” however, and approval was never to come. Honors, not bridges, came to Lindenthal in his old age. Late in 1932, for example, he was hailed at a dinner given by the Architecture League as the “grand old man of engineering.” In response to his introduction as one of the guests of honor, Lindenthal spoke of his career and “of his difficulties with politicians particularly in the building of the Manhattan, Williamsburg, and Queens-borough bridges and of his feeling of satisfaction when unhampered by political interference he built the great Hell Gate arch.” He evidently never did learn how to or want to deal with politicians, and this, more than any other factor, kept him from realizing his dream of a North River Bridge…
Lindenthal did not go to his office on his eighty-fifth birthday. He spent it at his New Jersey home, which he had named The Lindens, recuperating after a long illness. He was never to regain his health, and he died two months later. Until his final illness, he had remained active as president and chief engineer of the North River Bridge Company, working on “his dream of forty years.” The funeral was held at the family home. Of the two younger engineers most closely associated with Lindenthal during the construction of the Hell Gate Bridge, only David Steinman was reported to be in attendance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_B._Steinman
https://archive.org/stream/proceedings2248amer#page/n95/mode/2up/
Paul_D_North_JrI have a suspicion that there's more than one of Lindenthal's massive structures - but in his defense, he had to consider and design for the extremely heavy and concentrated railroad loadings, which back then (it seems to me) to have been going up about 'an E-10' rating about every 10 years or so (e.g., E-60 to E-70, or 6,000 lbs. per LF of track to 7,000 lbs., etc.). Someday I'll have to research that and document it a little better . . .
PDN, you and Mike, in particular, could find out what the Cooper rating of Lindenthal's 'union' Hudson bridge was going to be. (If I recall correctly it was ultimately sized to have about 22 tracks, divided among the putative participating railroads to avoid trackage-rights issues, and both the War Department height restrictions and the squabbling about 'which railroads would pay what' both for maintenance and upkeep killed the idea.)
I have to wonder if this was a WWI-era analogue to the Poughkeepsie Bridge, effectively designed 'too light' for the practical increases in freight and passenger cars that were even then developing, and suffering more than usual with advancing age and the typical lack of maintenance from the '60s onward. The drawings I remember show very heavy structure, but even so the practical load rating for trains might remain low...
I still think the Transmanhattan Bridge (at 125th Street, with a viaduct right across Manhattan at high level with no road connection to the island, and express truck lanes and multiple stack-train-capable tracks) is an idea that should be pursued. Sure, it spoils the view of the Riverside Drive viaduct, but think of the traffic improvement through the ridiculous bottlenecks of the lower Manhattan road crossings...
RME Paul_D_North_Jr Re: Tri-Borough Bridge article posted by wanswheel just above: ". . . suspension bridge of the cheap "pole-and-washline" architecture . . . only 300 feet below Hell Gate Bridge . . . " I wonder if he was writing about all suspension bridges - he might well have been, in view of the monumental style of the bridges he designed - or just this particular scheme. Compare his friend Ammann's George Washington Bridge ... both with its original limestone cladding, and later in the form that made Jeanneret talk about architecture throwing off its chains and beginning to laugh...
Paul_D_North_Jr Re: Tri-Borough Bridge article posted by wanswheel just above: ". . . suspension bridge of the cheap "pole-and-washline" architecture . . . only 300 feet below Hell Gate Bridge . . . " I wonder if he was writing about all suspension bridges - he might well have been, in view of the monumental style of the bridges he designed - or just this particular scheme.
". . . suspension bridge of the cheap "pole-and-washline" architecture . . . only 300 feet below Hell Gate Bridge . . . "
I wonder if he was writing about all suspension bridges - he might well have been, in view of the monumental style of the bridges he designed - or just this particular scheme.
Compare his friend Ammann's George Washington Bridge ... both with its original limestone cladding, and later in the form that made Jeanneret talk about architecture throwing off its chains and beginning to laugh...
See this article, esp. about halfway down the History section for Jeanneret's quote (I think he got a little carried away, but that's probably the usual engineer vs. architect prejudice):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_Bridge#History
Time prohibits me from a lengthier post, but I want to go back and take a look at Middleton's book about great engineering landmarks on American railroads. I have a suspicion that there's more than one of Lindenthal's massive structures - but in his defense, he had to consider and design for the extremely heavy and concentrated railroad loadings, which back then (it seems to me) to have been going up about 'an E-10' rating about every 10 years or so (e.g., E-60 to E-70, or 6,000 lbs. per LF of track to 7,000 lbs., etc.). Someday I'll have to research that and document it a little better . . .
- PDN.
RME He's almost certainly writing about the tendency of mid-Thirties ...
It's only 1928 yet, when Lindenthal writes that letter to the editor. He still hopes to build another bridge.
Excerpt from Civil Engineering, 2008
http://ascelibrary.org/doi/pdf/10.1061/ciegag.0000814
In working with Lindenthal, however, Ammann became aware of another bridge design for the Hudson that Lindenthal had initially proposed in 1888. The rail bridge was to carry 14 tracks and a pedestrian promenade. The ambitious project was widely supported and received authorization from the federal government, but the financial crisis and stock market downturn of 1893 effectively choked off funding for the project, estimated at $16 million. Lindenthal refused to give up on what he considered his magnum opus, however, and revised his plans over the next several decades—decades that saw the birth of the automobile and the sensational growth in its popularity after World War I. By 1923 Lindenthal’s bridge had become enormous; it was to be 235 ft (71.6 m) wide and have 12 railroad tracks on two levels. Moreover, it was to have 20 lanes for automobile and trolley traffic and two 15 ft (4.6 m) wide pedestrian promenades. Its cost was estimated at $200 million. Ammann was not alone in regarding Lindenthal’s design as excessive. “In vain, I as well as others have been fighting against the unlimited ambition of a genius who is obsessed with illusions of grandeur. He has the power in his hands and refuses to bring moderation into his gigantic plans,” wrote Ammann to his mother in late 1923. Lindenthal persisted with his design and once reprimanded Amman for being shortsighted.
Excerpt from Invention & Technology, 1992
http://www.inventionandtech.com/content/father-modern-bridges-1
Not long after the Hell Gate project, Lindenthal tried to revive his plan to bridge the Hudson. The problem had long intrigued engineers, for it was clear that such a span would be necessary for the development of the New Jersey suburbs. In the text he ghostwrote for Kunz, Ammann closes his discussion of long-span bridges with a review of four proposals for a Hudson River bridge, including those of Lindenthal and Mayer. Lindenthal had drawn up plans independently as early as 1887; his latest design was for a huge twenty-lane rail and automobile bridge at Fifty-seventh Street. Ammann argued against this, saying that the midtown area, already congested by 1920, could not handle the added traffic flow. Lindenthal insisted that he was planning “for a thousand years” and would not accept Ammann’s suggestion to scale the project back and move the crossing northward. From their first work together, the two men had never been well matched; Ammann’s quiet temperament contrasted with Lindenthal’s fiery spirit. Further disagreements ensued, and ultimately they could no longer work together. The two men parted in 1923.
I personally prefer the Pont du Quebec, which is also approaching its 100th birthday.
RMEHe's almost certainly writing about the tendency of mid-Thirties suspension-bridge construction to use thin tower construction, making the result look like clotheslines strung from a couple of chair backs.
You're not thinking of the 1930's bridges over San Francisco Bay, are you?
As much as I admire Lindenthal's work, such as the Smithfield Street Bridge and Hell Gate Bridge, in my opinion the Golden Gate Bridge is the most beautiful bridge of all. Seen from the bay, the two towers look to me like tuning forks with their narrowing toward the top. Most elegant.
I have never understood the appeal (other than size) of the George Washington Bridge; I'm sorry the towers were never clad as designed.
The other railway bridge that must be admired and respected is the spectacular Firth of Forth bridge north of Edinburgh. Impressive, to say the least.
The photos in this thread from wanswheel and others are beautiful and have that amazing clarity of b/w pictures from years ago. Many thanks.
And Paul3, you're right: the New Haven deserves much more praise and attention than it often gets.
Paul_D_North_JrRe: Tri-Borough Bridge article posted by wanswheel just above: ". . . suspension bridge of the cheap "pole-and-washline" architecture . . . only 300 feet below Hell Gate Bridge . . . " I wonder if he was writing about all suspension bridges - he might well have been, in view of the monumental style of the bridges he designed - or just this particular scheme.
He's almost certainly writing about the tendency of mid-Thirties suspension-bridge construction to use thin tower construction, making the result look like clotheslines strung from a couple of chair backs.
Paul3- The New Haven has to be one of the most overlooked and underappreciated railroads out there. Their diversity of equipment in steam, diesel and electric was as interesting as the Pennsy.
PA's, C-Liners, DL 109's, and so on plus they had their fair share of freight haul...their contribution to the overall economy was enormous.
Good old days before Triborough
Paul3- My late ex-father in law said that he rode over the Poughkeepsie Bridge on a troop train and he could feel it sway. I had friends there who recall the fire on the bridge in 1974 and it dropped debris for years before all the old ties and such were finally removed above the east side sometime in the 1980s. The approach tracks on both sides were pulled out in about 1984. I wonder if Andy's restaurant is still going, located below the bridge on the east side. Best chili in town!
Another thing I recall. Supposedly a guy bought the bridge from Conrail for one dollar. Central Hudson ran their wires on brackets on the side of the bridge and sent checks to the guy and then stopped when they ran wires under the river. Years later attempts were made to find him and get permission to put the walkway on it but no one remembered just who he was. All they had was a phone number that turned out to be from a taxi stand in Scranton, PA.
Re: Tri-Borough Bridge article posted by wanswheel just above:
No highway lanes, except possibly construction lanes, ever crossed the bridge. Of course ever since the late 1930's it is entirely paralleled by the Triboro Bridge's Bronx-Queens lanes.
No love for the New Haven RR in all this? The PRR didn't build it all by themselves. Heck, the NH operated the entire New York Connecting RR as part of their system, not the PRR's. Not a single PRR engine crossed the Hell Gate until the PC merger of 1969. Yes, the PRR put down most of the cash, but it was a New Haven bridge.
I'm somewhat reminded of the Walkway Over The Hudson park in Poughkeepsie, NY, using the NH's old Maybrook Line bridge. They have a plaque describing the different levels of donations to the park, using railroad names for the various levels. The NH isn't even mentioned and it was their bridge for 65 years! Number 1? The New York Central level...and they only went under the darn bridge. No respect...
RMEDid everyone catch the part about the 60' boulevard and trolley tracks carried on a separate upper level 'at a comparatively moderate expenditure'? I hadn't heard that before reading this.
Did this ever happen? In the pictures posted there are no roadways going through the side portals of the "towers" and no highway lanes exist today as near as I can determine. I know the Hoey P Long Bridge in New Orleans has highway lanes and other bridges are dual purpose but did the Hell Gate ever carry non rail vehicles?
wanswheel Lindenthal’s Smithfield Street bridge at Pittsburgh Same bridge, different look to it.
Lindenthal’s Smithfield Street bridge at Pittsburgh
Same bridge, different look to it.
Crossed that bridge too many times to count when I lived in Pittsburgh. The 'car shed' shown in the first picture is for the P&LE's Pittsburgh Station that was used by B&O through trains (after trackage rights were obtained) and the P&LE. The station is immediately to the right of the bridge in the 2nd two pictures. It still exists and has been 'redeveloped' as Station Square.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Did everyone catch the part about the 60' boulevard and trolley tracks carried on a separate upper level 'at a comparatively moderate expenditure'? I hadn't heard that before reading this.
Also found for the first time, to my relative horror, that I have been using the wrong name for the part of the PRR between Newark and Penn Station. And that the Bay Ridge freight connection of the New Haven was actually LIRR. And that the Hell Gate Bridge was originally intended as a New York Central connection.
Thanks for a great deal of insight in a comparatively short time, from an impeccable reference.
As usual.
M636C I assume that is Gustav Lindenthal in the middle of the front row in that October 1916 photo. That is exactly how I would imagine someone with that name at that time.
I assume that is Gustav Lindenthal in the middle of the front row in that October 1916 photo. That is exactly how I would imagine someone with that name at that time.
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Othmar-Herman-Ammann#ref249212
Electrification of NY Connecting RR was spoken of in the future tense in November 1917.
https://archive.org/stream/transactionsofam82amer#page/852/mode/2up
Done according to Railway Age by June 1918.
https://archive.org/stream/railwayage64newy#page/1366/mode/2up
Note that the catenary doesn't appear to have been installed yet at the time of these photos. I'll have to look and see if that's referenced in Bill Middleton's books on either electrification or the great engineering achievements.
EDIT: Apparently the 2 passenger tracks were electrified by the time of the formal opening in 1917, but the freight lines were not electriifed until 1927:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Connecting_Railroad#Electrification
"Hell Gate Bridge Question": http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=96&t=35062
Also in the picture referenced by M636C, note that a construction crane is still atop the abutment in the background.
wanswheel https://books.google.com/books?id=qUB4gRby940C&pg=PA297&dq=%22coda+297%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiMh97_qr3SAhUC_mMKHW0qCkY4ChDoAQg0MAU#v=onepage&q=%22coda%20297%22&f=true
https://books.google.com/books?id=qUB4gRby940C&pg=PA297&dq=%22coda+297%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiMh97_qr3SAhUC_mMKHW0qCkY4ChDoAQg0MAU#v=onepage&q=%22coda%20297%22&f=true
Peter
Not just a bridge, it's a monument to the men who designed and built it.
Today's NY Times (also known by some who fear and hate it as the "failing New York Times") has a fine article and photos of the Hell Gate Bridge, which turns 100 years old next Thursday. Who doesn't enjoy the ride up and over this magnificent bridge and its approaches? For nearly 50 years, every time I cross this bridge I put down what I'm doing and just look...and admire. So does everyone else in my car usually.
Here is an example of what our great-grandfathers' generation could do when challenged. A big thank you to Gustav Lidenthal, its brilliant designer, and the wonderful old Pennsylvania Railroad.
By the way, has anyone here ever owned the Lionel Trains copy of the bridge? Even that's impressive!
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/03/nyregion/hell-gate-bridge-a-good-place-to-hide-from-zombies-turns-100.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fnyregion&action=click&contentCollection=nyregion®ion=rank&module=package&version=highlights&contentPlacement=2&pgtype=sectionfront&_r=0
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