BaltACD Euclid is the personification of principle of physics he disavows. He is given a full service brake application and still keeps on. He is given a Emergency brake application and still keeps on. Like anything else - he will stop when all inertia is depleated.
Euclid is the personification of principle of physics he disavows.
He is given a full service brake application and still keeps on.
He is given a Emergency brake application and still keeps on.
Like anything else - he will stop when all inertia is depleated.
Johnny
Deggesty BaltACD Euclid is the personification of principle of physics he disavows. He is given a full service brake application and still keeps on. He is given a Emergency brake application and still keeps on. Like anything else - he will stop when all inertia is depleated. --or until he has flayed the horse.
--or until he has flayed the horse.
At least the HORSE, no longer feels the Flaying, unfortunately the forum is not so Blessed.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Our rule and procedure are pretty close to the BNSF instructions. (For relief of inspection, our speed requirement is now 20MPH. Also for us, and I would think them, Key trains always require an inspection after a UDE.) I would say the fusee requirement is meant for situations where the train in emergency has radio problems. Once the adjacent track has been protected via radio, either by the dispatcher contacting distant trains or the crew contacting closely approaching trains, the fusees aren't really necessary. (If you feel the need to use a fusee to signal a closely approaching train, you might want to use it to give a stop signal. Not just place it on the ground. Unless a train is already at restricted speed, there is no requirement to stop SHORT OF an unexpected unattended burning fusee.)
I've been on both sides of this situation. If an approaching train is within sight, it is the first concern and contacted by radio. If nothing is in sight, then the general broadcast and toning up the dispatcher is done. The dispatcher contacts nearby trains and notifies them of who is in emergency and to talk to them before passing them.
I once had a student engineer who was running the train. A train coming at us about a mile or so away tells us they just lost their air. I tell the student to slow us down in case we need to stop. Because dynamic braking is stressed because of fuel conservation, he starts to throttle down to go into dynamics. I told him to get some air under the train now. That in this situation you don't have time to get into dynamics.
Jeff
challenger3980 Deggesty BaltACD Euclid is the personification of principle of physics he disavows. He is given a full service brake application and still keeps on. He is given a Emergency brake application and still keeps on. Like anything else - he will stop when all inertia is depleated. --or until he has flayed the horse. At least the HORSE, no longer feels the Flaying, unfortunately the forum is not so Blessed. Doug
tree68 Euclid and the engineer of the oil train failing to slow to restricted speed until seeing the obstruction and dumping the air. Stop - you're killing me here. The laws of physics have not been suspended. The fact that you have absolutely no clue as to the dynamics of train handling is glaringly obvious. Perhaps you should stop now, before you further embarrass yourself.
Euclid and the engineer of the oil train failing to slow to restricted speed until seeing the obstruction and dumping the air.
Stop - you're killing me here.
The laws of physics have not been suspended.
The fact that you have absolutely no clue as to the dynamics of train handling is glaringly obvious.
Perhaps you should stop now, before you further embarrass yourself.
The engineer did nothing in reaction to the warning. In the interview, he said he made the emergency application when he first saw the fouling car. That was 18 seconds after the warning. If he was required to run at restricted speed, he should have started slowing immediately. He was running way faster than the sight distance allowed for restricted speed. Heading into blinding snow; receiving a warning that required immediately running at a speed that allowed time to stop short of obstructions—these factors required slowing down as quickly as possible. He should have dumped the air as soon as he heard the warning. Why do you think these facts require suspending the laws of physics? If you keep it up, you are liable to lose all your humility.
Euclid He should have dumped the air as soon as he heard the warning. Why do you think these facts require suspending the laws of physics? If you keep it up, you are liable to lose all your humility.
That's not how you reduce your speed to restricted following safe train handling procedures, now is it?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
23 17 46 11
EuclidWhy do you think these facts require suspending the laws of physics?
It's not the facts - it's your conclusions of how things should have been...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Please review rules 1,2,3,and 4 posted above
zugmann Euclid He should have dumped the air as soon as he heard the warning. That's not how you reduce your speed to restricted following safe train handling procedures, now is it?
Euclid He should have dumped the air as soon as he heard the warning.
Under this circumstance, it seems to me that safe train handling would have called for an emergency application to cut speed as quickly as possible. The risk of the emergency application causing a derailment or other problem would be less than the risk of heading into a blind spot that is known to contain a problem which might be fouling equipment.
The rule calls for immediate action to prevent this type of collision. When the UDE indicated the possibility of a fouling car, there was a total of 59 seconds available to stop short of that car. A delay in reacting used up 49 of the 59 seconds available.
EuclidWell, it would not be good train handling if you could slow to restricted speed without going into emergency.
My God you are all over the map in that explanation. Pretty apparent you have no experince as an engineer. So stop pretending you know what's best. It's downright pathetic.
Let's see - a train doing 28 MPH at the time of the UDE, and dragging a derailed car, takes 35 seconds to stop. The derailed car was 45 deep (~2250 feet).
How long will it take a 102 car loaded train doing 43 MPH, with nothing dragging, to stop?
That collision was going to occur. Period.
tree68 Let's see - a train doing 28 MPH at the time of the UDE, and dragging a derailed car, takes 35 seconds to stop. The derailed car was 45 deep (~2250 feet). How long will it take a 102 car loaded train doing 43 MPH, with nothing dragging, to stop? That collision was going to occur. Period.
I don't know if 59 seconds was enough to stop the oil trail or not. Do you? I do know that it would have slowed down a lot more in 59 seconds than in the 10 seconds it utilized.
Just because you believe the collision is going to occur, it does not relieve you from the rule to take immediate action to slow down as much as possible.
EuclidJust because you believe the collision is going to occur, it does not relieve you from the rule to take immediate action to slow down as much as possible.
Do we really have a non-engineer lecturing engineers how to run their trains?
zugmann Euclid Just because you believe the collision is going to occur, it does not relieve you from the rule to take immediate action to slow down as much as possible. Do we really have a non-engineer lecturing engineers how to run their trains?
Euclid Just because you believe the collision is going to occur, it does not relieve you from the rule to take immediate action to slow down as much as possible.
No I don't care how you run your train. But if you have some pressing issue with what I am saying, I will be glad to respond. It's not a lecture. It's not even an insult.
EuclidNo I don't care how you run your train. But if you have some pressing issue with what I am saying, I will be glad to respond. It's not a lecture.
Sure sounds like a lecture.
Euclid zugmann Euclid Do we really have a non-engineer lecturing engineers how to run their trains? No I don't care how you run your train. But if you have some pressing issue with what I am saying, I will be glad to respond. It's not a lecture.
zugmann Euclid Do we really have a non-engineer lecturing engineers how to run their trains?
Euclid
No I don't care how you run your train. But if you have some pressing issue with what I am saying, I will be glad to respond. It's not a lecture.
Run that keyboard! It is the only thing you can run, qualified or not.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Well I can't help that. You ask me a question, I answer it with no disrespect, and then you fly off the handle and say I am lecturing you.
Euclid Well I can't help that. You ask me a question, I answer it with no disrespect, and then you fly off the handle and say I am lecturing you.
You think that was flying off the handle? Whatever you say, Senpai.
zugmann You think that was flying off the handle? Whatever you say, Senpai.
Well actually I have seen worse flying off the handle now that you mention it.
I've read on these very forums that if you were to suddenly throw a loaded train into an emergency stop situation that you run the risk of derailing the train, making a big mess, and perhaps getting someone killed. Now beuclid wants the engineer to dump the air on a loaded, volatile oil train because the engineer was made away that a grain train had done so. It sounds like a recipe for disaster.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Oil train (Nominally 100 cars +/-) = 14400 tons moving a reported 42 MPH
Kinetic energy is directly proportional to the mass of the object and to the square of its velocity: K.E. = 1/2 m v2. If the mass has units of kilograms and the velocity of meters per second, the kinetic energy has units of kilograms-meters squared per second squared.
Brake it to Zero in a controlled manner so as not to derail your train.
I may be sorry I am adding to this thread but I am reminded of the movie "SULLEY" and the questioning of whether he had time to divert to an other airport rather than land in the Hudson River. Decision making includes the time to react to an event. It's why the magician can drop the dollar bill through your fingers before you can squeeze them and catch the bill. Some reactions can be automatic but unexpected events take a few secconds.
Euclid. As has been asked before, could you provide some background on your comtinuing this discussion of the timing of the Casselton Oil Train Wreck? Are you suggesting failures by the engineers to follow the rules in a timely manor. That they were complicet and could have prevented the collision if they had only followed the rules. Or are you just nit picking and having your idea of fun with the other posters. I await your answer, sir.
Electroliner 1935 I may be sorry I am adding to this thread but I am reminded of the movie "SULLEY" and the questioning of whether he had time to divert to an other airport rather than land in the Hudson River. Decision making includes the time to react to an event. It's why the magician can drop the dollar bill through your fingers before you can squeeze them and catch the bill. Some reactions can be automatic but unexpected events take a few secconds. Euclid. As has been asked before, could you provide some background on your comtinuing this discussion of the timing of the Casselton Oil Train Wreck? Are you suggesting failures by the engineers to follow the rules in a timely manor. That they were complicet and could have prevented the collision if they had only followed the rules. Or are you just nit picking and having your idea of fun with the other posters. I await your answer, sir.
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Been down this path with Bucky too many times before to get involved in this one. However, I think he should add a signature line that says
"Disclaimer: These posts are the [unqualified] opinion of the author and are for entertainment purposes only".
Norm
EuclidNo I don't care how you run your train.
But you should care how he runs his train. Because he's here to tell you how things are, not how you think they should be.
And that's pretty much been the point - someone who knows tells you how things really are, and you come back with a "yes, but..."
I don't have to run trains anymore. Too easy to get killed....
I've had enough misadventures.
Randy
tree68But you should care how he runs his train. Because he's here to tell you how things are, not how you think they should be.
That's ok. I really don't care if he cares how I run my train, either. I'll run it to the best of my abilities while following all safety rules, regualtions, orders, etc. This site is the last thing on my mind when I'm doing real RR work. I post here when I'm bored at home.
I know I work in the wrong industry and do not even drive the trucks. However I asked several of my drivers all with 20+ years of hauling some of the nastiest stuff that is pulled all over the USA how fast they can stop in an emergency. They all answered me with 2 questions do you want the truck upright or on its side with the load all over the freaking place. In what happened in Casseleton regardless of whatever that crew did whenever they applied the brakes on that oil train the second they saw the grain car was fouling their tracks they were coming off the tracks plain and simple. It is simple physics you had a 125 ton derail on the mainline and regradless of what you did nothing short of a transporter from Star Trek was going to stop it from crashing.
You can argur what the crew did wrong until the cows come home not one thing is going to change that fact that regardless of what they did that CBR train was going to be derailed. The momentum of the train and the facts are nothing was going to stop it. This was that one accident that even PTC could NOT have prevented from all indincations the way it looks like. Just think about that the ultimate safety system would not have prevented this one on the mainline in ND from happening. So quit arguing that this crew was wrong on this rule or that rule. Yes mistakes where made all around. Just be glad it was not a train carrying a tanker full of Chorline Gas that derailed and went up in Downtown Chicago. Yes it was a bad accident however it was not as bad as it could have been.
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