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CN contract security guard shot and killed in Harvey, IL

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Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 6:52 PM

Troop383
I am sure they are out there somewhere- but in my 23 years of law enforcement I have never come across a police agency that has given a private security company access to their police radio channels.  Talking with the railroad police officers, they even have a hard time getting access to radio channels from some local agencies.

With conventional systems, all you need is a plain old scanner radio to listen in.   The frequencies are generally available on-line.  Trunked systems require a scanner capable of handling those systems.  Most newer trunked systems are digital, so one needs a digital capable scanner.  There is one technology available that even digital scanners can't scan.

Some locales have gone to a conventional system, but using digital technology.  It's not trunked, but you still need a digital capable scanner. 

And that's just to listen.

If you want to transmit, all that is needed on a conventional system is a radio capable of the proper frequency range, programmed for the proper frequency(s).  Most professional grade radios are fully capable of operation there.  Doing digital (P25) conventional still requires a digital capable radio - they aren't cheap.  

Either way, while legally one must have permission of the licensee to tranmit on the licensee's frequencies, it's not hard to set up a radio to do so.  

Many of our volunteers own their own radios (with RR permission - we aren't radio rich), which are programmed for all the appropriate frequencies.  I also have a number of fire-related frequencies in my personal hand-held, but I'm generally authorized to use them.

Trunked radio is another story altogether.  Virtually all trunked radio systems these days are running P25.  The railroads are most likely to go with NXDN when they go digital (it's coming).  The two are not interchangable.  Never mind that most trunked systems operate well away from regular railroad frequencies.

And while a trunking scanner (and perhaps even a regular trunked radio) can listen, most trunking systems (P25 being one of them) require that a radio be given permission to operate on the system.  If an agency does not want RR security/police on their P25 system, they simply won't program those radios into their system.

 

LarryWhistling
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Posted by Troop383 on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 2:45 PM

I am sure they are out there somewhere- but in my 23 years of law enforcement I have never come across a police agency that has given a private security company access to their police radio channels.  Talking with the railroad police officers, they even have a hard time getting access to radio channels from some local agencies.

Generally, private security guards aren't held in very high regard by law enforcement officers.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Monday, November 28, 2016 9:44 AM

caldreamer
It is a good thing I can't get a hold of the guy, because if I did he would beg for death a thousand times over before I would let him die.  And I ould have absoultly NO nightmares afterward.

Really?

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, November 28, 2016 7:47 AM

RME
BaltACD

I'll grant this much: railroad security should have at least the ability to monitor and, if necessary, contact police directly (after all, at least some of them do have police power.  "Calling 911" is not an option in an emergent situation involving violence. 

Extending this to crew safety: What's the difference in distracting effect between scanning police frequencies -- even with special permission -- and listening to WNEW news or weather on FM?  Heck, we even thought for a while that transmissions on other railroad frequencies were enough of a distraction to high-side Amtrak 188.

Your company pays you to do their work.  If your work with your company is to monitor other organizations radio channels, then you doing the work of your job description.  If your job description does not include the requirement of monitoring other organizations radio channels then you are not doing your job if you do so.

Secondly, organizations such as Fire and Police each have multiple channels for specific purposes that are germaine to their business needs and converstaion security.

Just because something is broadcast by someone doesn't require everyone in the broadcast area to hear it.  There are different channels for a reason - for a legitimate conversation to be effective the parties in the conversation MUST know what the parties involved are saying to each other.  When you have multiple parties talking over each other all you have is unintellegible noise.

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Posted by RME on Monday, November 28, 2016 7:17 AM

BaltACD
Expecting anyone to monitor a channel(s) of other organizations is ludicrous.

I'll grant this much: railroad security should have at least the ability to monitor and, if necessary, contact police directly (after all, at least some of them do have police power.  "Calling 911" is not an option in an emergent situation involving violence. 

Extending this to crew safety: What's the difference in distracting effect between scanning police frequencies -- even with special permission -- and listening to WNEW news or weather on FM?  Heck, we even thought for a while that transmissions on other railroad frequencies were enough of a distraction to high-side Amtrak 188.

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, November 28, 2016 7:14 AM

It should also be noted that while it appears that yard is completely within Harvey, there are a number of small communities in the area that may be using different frequencies.  That would make it that much harder to know which frequencies to monitor, besides their own assigned frequency.

The security guard may or may not have been on a railroad channel - I don't know.  There may have been a non-railroad frequency in use for security.

Depending on who was on the "other end" of the radio, they may or may not have been able to monitor local police traffic.  I wouldn't expect a yard office, or especially a railroad dispatcher, to do so.  If it was a dispatcher dedicated to security, then perhaps.  But I don't know what the arrangement was there.

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Posted by BaltACD on Sunday, November 27, 2016 10:49 PM

tree68
PNWRMNM

I daresay you won't find many crystals in radios these days - they're all synthesized and programmed with a computer.

I can't figure out what frequencies Harvey PD is using from my usual reference.  One set of frequencies could probably be programmed into a railroad radio.  The other not.  It doesn't appear that they are using trunked radios yet, which would completely rule out interoperability with RR radios.

That said, many private concerns don't want their people able to listen to channels not directly associated with their business.  It may detract from their primary purpose - their business.  

Locomotives are equipped to work on all the AAR standard frequencies, as are employee hand sets and those with MofW equipment.

On my carrier the Train Dispatcher only has access to the Road Channel, MofW Channel and Dispatchers Channel that apply to his specific territory.

Expecting anyone to monitor a channel(s) of other organizations is ludicrous.  You are being paid by your employer to monitor the channels your employer directs you to work with.

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Posted by tree68 on Sunday, November 27, 2016 10:39 PM

PNWRMNM
...it would be simply a matter of having the right crystal in his radio,

I daresay you won't find many crystals in radios these days - they're all synthesized and programmed with a computer.

I can't figure out what frequencies Harvey PD is using from my usual reference.  One set of frequencies could probably be programmed into a railroad radio.  The other not.  It doesn't appear that they are using trunked radios yet, which would completely rule out interoperability with RR radios.

That said, many private concerns don't want their people able to listen to channels not directly associated with their business.  It may detract from their primary purpose - their business.  

LarryWhistling
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Posted by PNWRMNM on Sunday, November 27, 2016 8:39 PM

"The South Side of Chicago is the baddest part of town. . ." Jim Croche in Bad, Bad Leroy Brown.

Reading between the lines of the media report, an always dangerous thing, I get the idea that the CN cop had no idea that the chase was going on in the area and was thus not in a state of high readyness. That lack of communication surprises me since it would be simply a matter of having the right crystal in his radio, but of course he would need to be monitoring that channel, which obviously would not be his railroad channel.

I hope RR police leaders can come up with a solution since any type of cop seems to be a target these days.

Mac McCulloch

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Posted by tree68 on Sunday, November 27, 2016 8:29 PM

rrnut282
...this was senseless.

Indeed - any uniform he may have been wearing notwithstanding, he was clearly in the wrong place at the wrong time, through no fault of his own.

This could easily have been a story about a RR crewmember.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by schlimm on Sunday, November 27, 2016 8:04 PM

Aside from the usual irrelevant comments on the journalism, now removed or corrected, Harvey is simply a very dangerous area.  Sad.

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Posted by dakotafred on Sunday, November 27, 2016 7:47 PM

It's impossible to make sense of the Tribune story posted. The gunman "got on a railroad car headed south"? Metra? The El? A boxcar? Later, "... he jumped the railcar and ran away"?

Granted, the problem is not just with green reporters but sometimes with a semi-literate cop who writes the report the reporter cribs off of.

Either way, it sure makes for poor reporting. You can do as well on the Internet, which is probably why many readers have decided they have nothing to lose by making the switch from print, especially from the local paper. (Even when the paper is the formerly august Chicago Tribune.)

 

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Posted by rrnut282 on Sunday, November 27, 2016 6:48 PM

For all the jokes about rent-a-cops, this was senseless.  May he RIP and his family taken care of by the companies involved.

Mike (2-8-2)
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Posted by BaltACD on Sunday, November 27, 2016 6:32 PM

Chicago Tribune

As of 7:30 a.m. Sunday, Howard said the man was still on the lam.

He was described as a black man of medium build who was wearing blue jeans and a black sweatshirt. 

I must say that description really narrows down who they are looking for. [/sarcasm]

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Posted by kgbw49 on Sunday, November 27, 2016 6:18 PM

The CN Office in Harvey is at 15840 West Avenue. Here is the Google Maps link:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/15840+West+Ave,+Harvey,+IL+60426/@41.6019676,-87.6472135,771m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x880e22438fcea961:0x473bf70148e60546!8m2!3d41.6019676!4d-87.6450248

It looks like they have a significant intermodal facility in the area.

 

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Posted by caldreamer on Sunday, November 27, 2016 6:15 PM

There is absolutly no reason for that guy killing a security guard.  He does not care about human life.  It is a good thing I can't get a hold of the guy, because if I did he would beg for death a thousand times over before I would let him die.  And I ould have absoultly NO nightmares afterward.

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Posted by Vern Moore on Sunday, November 27, 2016 5:47 PM

I wonder if this incident is related to a news report out of Chicago about a theft of firearms from a railyard this weekend?

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Posted by Deggesty on Sunday, November 27, 2016 4:14 PM

mudchicken

"Railroad vehicle attached to the tracks"....Hi-rail?

 

If the vehicle was attached to the tracks, I do not think it would be able to go anywhere. I have the impression that the writer would have failed English back when I was informed in the use of the language. Oh, well....

MC may have the right idea--a Hi-rail that was on the track (singular, not plural).

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Posted by mudchicken on Sunday, November 27, 2016 3:13 PM

"Railroad vehicle attached to the tracks"....Hi-rail?

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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CN contract security guard shot and killed in Harvey, IL
Posted by greyhounds on Sunday, November 27, 2016 1:36 PM
"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.

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