And the rail yard is "surrounded". It's another sad story.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-manhunt-underway-after-railroad-officer-fatally-wounded-in-harvey-20161126-story.html
"Railroad vehicle attached to the tracks"....Hi-rail?
mudchicken "Railroad vehicle attached to the tracks"....Hi-rail?
MC may have the right idea--a Hi-rail that was on the track (singular, not plural).
Johnny
I wonder if this incident is related to a news report out of Chicago about a theft of firearms from a railyard this weekend?
There is absolutly no reason for that guy killing a security guard. He does not care about human life. It is a good thing I can't get a hold of the guy, because if I did he would beg for death a thousand times over before I would let him die. And I ould have absoultly NO nightmares afterward.
The CN Office in Harvey is at 15840 West Avenue. Here is the Google Maps link:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/15840+West+Ave,+Harvey,+IL+60426/@41.6019676,-87.6472135,771m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x880e22438fcea961:0x473bf70148e60546!8m2!3d41.6019676!4d-87.6450248
It looks like they have a significant intermodal facility in the area.
Chicago Tribune As of 7:30 a.m. Sunday, Howard said the man was still on the lam. He was described as a black man of medium build who was wearing blue jeans and a black sweatshirt.
As of 7:30 a.m. Sunday, Howard said the man was still on the lam.
He was described as a black man of medium build who was wearing blue jeans and a black sweatshirt.
I must say that description really narrows down who they are looking for. [/sarcasm]
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
For all the jokes about rent-a-cops, this was senseless. May he RIP and his family taken care of by the companies involved.
It's impossible to make sense of the Tribune story posted. The gunman "got on a railroad car headed south"? Metra? The El? A boxcar? Later, "... he jumped the railcar and ran away"?
Granted, the problem is not just with green reporters but sometimes with a semi-literate cop who writes the report the reporter cribs off of.
Either way, it sure makes for poor reporting. You can do as well on the Internet, which is probably why many readers have decided they have nothing to lose by making the switch from print, especially from the local paper. (Even when the paper is the formerly august Chicago Tribune.)
Aside from the usual irrelevant comments on the journalism, now removed or corrected, Harvey is simply a very dangerous area. Sad.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
rrnut282...this was senseless.
Indeed - any uniform he may have been wearing notwithstanding, he was clearly in the wrong place at the wrong time, through no fault of his own.
This could easily have been a story about a RR crewmember.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
"The South Side of Chicago is the baddest part of town. . ." Jim Croche in Bad, Bad Leroy Brown.
Reading between the lines of the media report, an always dangerous thing, I get the idea that the CN cop had no idea that the chase was going on in the area and was thus not in a state of high readyness. That lack of communication surprises me since it would be simply a matter of having the right crystal in his radio, but of course he would need to be monitoring that channel, which obviously would not be his railroad channel.
I hope RR police leaders can come up with a solution since any type of cop seems to be a target these days.
Mac McCulloch
PNWRMNM ...it would be simply a matter of having the right crystal in his radio,
I daresay you won't find many crystals in radios these days - they're all synthesized and programmed with a computer.
I can't figure out what frequencies Harvey PD is using from my usual reference. One set of frequencies could probably be programmed into a railroad radio. The other not. It doesn't appear that they are using trunked radios yet, which would completely rule out interoperability with RR radios.
That said, many private concerns don't want their people able to listen to channels not directly associated with their business. It may detract from their primary purpose - their business.
tree68 PNWRMNM I daresay you won't find many crystals in radios these days - they're all synthesized and programmed with a computer. I can't figure out what frequencies Harvey PD is using from my usual reference. One set of frequencies could probably be programmed into a railroad radio. The other not. It doesn't appear that they are using trunked radios yet, which would completely rule out interoperability with RR radios. That said, many private concerns don't want their people able to listen to channels not directly associated with their business. It may detract from their primary purpose - their business.
PNWRMNM
Locomotives are equipped to work on all the AAR standard frequencies, as are employee hand sets and those with MofW equipment.
On my carrier the Train Dispatcher only has access to the Road Channel, MofW Channel and Dispatchers Channel that apply to his specific territory.
Expecting anyone to monitor a channel(s) of other organizations is ludicrous. You are being paid by your employer to monitor the channels your employer directs you to work with.
It should also be noted that while it appears that yard is completely within Harvey, there are a number of small communities in the area that may be using different frequencies. That would make it that much harder to know which frequencies to monitor, besides their own assigned frequency.
The security guard may or may not have been on a railroad channel - I don't know. There may have been a non-railroad frequency in use for security.
Depending on who was on the "other end" of the radio, they may or may not have been able to monitor local police traffic. I wouldn't expect a yard office, or especially a railroad dispatcher, to do so. If it was a dispatcher dedicated to security, then perhaps. But I don't know what the arrangement was there.
BaltACDExpecting anyone to monitor a channel(s) of other organizations is ludicrous.
I'll grant this much: railroad security should have at least the ability to monitor and, if necessary, contact police directly (after all, at least some of them do have police power. "Calling 911" is not an option in an emergent situation involving violence.
Extending this to crew safety: What's the difference in distracting effect between scanning police frequencies -- even with special permission -- and listening to WNEW news or weather on FM? Heck, we even thought for a while that transmissions on other railroad frequencies were enough of a distraction to high-side Amtrak 188.
RME BaltACD I'll grant this much: railroad security should have at least the ability to monitor and, if necessary, contact police directly (after all, at least some of them do have police power. "Calling 911" is not an option in an emergent situation involving violence. Extending this to crew safety: What's the difference in distracting effect between scanning police frequencies -- even with special permission -- and listening to WNEW news or weather on FM? Heck, we even thought for a while that transmissions on other railroad frequencies were enough of a distraction to high-side Amtrak 188.
BaltACD
Your company pays you to do their work. If your work with your company is to monitor other organizations radio channels, then you doing the work of your job description. If your job description does not include the requirement of monitoring other organizations radio channels then you are not doing your job if you do so.
Secondly, organizations such as Fire and Police each have multiple channels for specific purposes that are germaine to their business needs and converstaion security.
Just because something is broadcast by someone doesn't require everyone in the broadcast area to hear it. There are different channels for a reason - for a legitimate conversation to be effective the parties in the conversation MUST know what the parties involved are saying to each other. When you have multiple parties talking over each other all you have is unintellegible noise.
caldreamerIt is a good thing I can't get a hold of the guy, because if I did he would beg for death a thousand times over before I would let him die. And I ould have absoultly NO nightmares afterward.
Really?
I am sure they are out there somewhere- but in my 23 years of law enforcement I have never come across a police agency that has given a private security company access to their police radio channels. Talking with the railroad police officers, they even have a hard time getting access to radio channels from some local agencies.
Generally, private security guards aren't held in very high regard by law enforcement officers.
Troop383I am sure they are out there somewhere- but in my 23 years of law enforcement I have never come across a police agency that has given a private security company access to their police radio channels. Talking with the railroad police officers, they even have a hard time getting access to radio channels from some local agencies.
With conventional systems, all you need is a plain old scanner radio to listen in. The frequencies are generally available on-line. Trunked systems require a scanner capable of handling those systems. Most newer trunked systems are digital, so one needs a digital capable scanner. There is one technology available that even digital scanners can't scan.
Some locales have gone to a conventional system, but using digital technology. It's not trunked, but you still need a digital capable scanner.
And that's just to listen.
If you want to transmit, all that is needed on a conventional system is a radio capable of the proper frequency range, programmed for the proper frequency(s). Most professional grade radios are fully capable of operation there. Doing digital (P25) conventional still requires a digital capable radio - they aren't cheap.
Either way, while legally one must have permission of the licensee to tranmit on the licensee's frequencies, it's not hard to set up a radio to do so.
Many of our volunteers own their own radios (with RR permission - we aren't radio rich), which are programmed for all the appropriate frequencies. I also have a number of fire-related frequencies in my personal hand-held, but I'm generally authorized to use them.
Trunked radio is another story altogether. Virtually all trunked radio systems these days are running P25. The railroads are most likely to go with NXDN when they go digital (it's coming). The two are not interchangable. Never mind that most trunked systems operate well away from regular railroad frequencies.
And while a trunking scanner (and perhaps even a regular trunked radio) can listen, most trunking systems (P25 being one of them) require that a radio be given permission to operate on the system. If an agency does not want RR security/police on their P25 system, they simply won't program those radios into their system.
BaltACD RME BaltACD I'll grant this much: railroad security should have at least the ability to monitor and, if necessary, contact police directly (after all, at least some of them do have police power. "Calling 911" is not an option in an emergent situation involving violence. Extending this to crew safety: What's the difference in distracting effect between scanning police frequencies -- even with special permission -- and listening to WNEW news or weather on FM? Heck, we even thought for a while that transmissions on other railroad frequencies were enough of a distraction to high-side Amtrak 188. Your company pays you to do their work. If your work with your company is to monitor other organizations radio channels, then you doing the work of your job description. If your job description does not include the requirement of monitoring other organizations radio channels then you are not doing your job if you do so. Secondly, organizations such as Fire and Police each have multiple channels for specific purposes that are germaine to their business needs and converstaion security. Just because something is broadcast by someone doesn't require everyone in the broadcast area to hear it. There are different channels for a reason - for a legitimate conversation to be effective the parties in the conversation MUST know what the parties involved are saying to each other. When you have multiple parties talking over each other all you have is unintellegible noise.
Was ending up dead part of that man's job description? Is the management of that railroad that rigid with the bolded does nots, the are nots, and the capitalized MUSTs in their employee handbook? May make for interesting legal discovery by the surviving family. A courtroom judge may have his own set of does nots, are nots, and musts, too.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Troop383 I am sure they are out there somewhere- but in my 23 years of law enforcement I have never come across a police agency that has given a private security company access to their police radio channels. Talking with the railroad police officers, they even have a hard time getting access to radio channels from some local agencies. Generally, private security guards aren't held in very high regard by law enforcement officers.
And that the man was not the correct kind of "cop" held in high enough regard by LEOs is a reason for a man to die?
Paul MilenkovicAnd that the man was not the correct kind of "cop" held in high enough regard by LEOs is a reason for a man to die?
Apples and oranges. Could just as easily have been a conductor, engineer, or laborer. The shooter didn't care - this was someone who might interfere with his getaway.
Knowing the bad guy was coming his way might only have served to let him hide.
Again, through no fault of his own, in the wrong place, at the wrong time.
They've got a suspect and an arrest warrent has been issued. Now they have to find the guy.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/post-tribune/news/ct-harvey-security-guard-killed-met-1202-20161202-story.html
Troop383I think you misunderstood what I wrote.
Your words were clear. "Generally, private security guards aren't held in very high regard by law enforcement officers." If the rail security guard had had access to the police chatter, he would have had a better chance of survival. But I guess in your mind, he doesn't rate that.
schlimm Troop383 I think you misunderstood what I wrote. Your words were clear. "Generally, private security guards aren't held in very high regard by law enforcement officers." If the rail security guard had had access to the police chatter, he would have had a better chance of survival. But I guess in your mind, he doesn't rate that.
Troop383 I think you misunderstood what I wrote.
On that we agree!
Mac
schlimm Troop383 Your words were clear. "Generally, private security guards aren't held in very high regard by law enforcement officers." If the rail security guard had had access to the police chatter, he would have had a better chance of survival. But I guess in your mind, he doesn't rate that.
Troop383
With 'police chatter' you are living in a dream world of what people that aren't employed by said police agency are supposed to be doing for the organizations that actually employ them. The poor fellow was 'working' for his living and not a foamer sitting on a couch listening to a multi-channel scanner to get his kicks.
PNWRMNM schlimm Troop383 I think you misunderstood what I wrote. Your words were clear. "Generally, private security guards aren't held in very high regard by law enforcement officers." If the rail security guard had had access to the police chatter, he would have had a better chance of survival. But I guess in your mind, he doesn't rate that. On that we agree! Mac
Mirabile dictu!!
The RR security guard should have had access. He might or might not have listened to the local police chatter of what was going down, his problem. But at least he would have had a better chance. What's wrong with that?
As to the comment above on police not viewing private security folks favorably, the Harvey police chief said, "police in the departments investigating the shooting death are considering Hardin a fellow law enforcement officer. Officers have slept at the Harvey Police Department as they have spent the last several days investigating the death of one of their own."
BaltACD,
Let my try to state more clearly why I believe the oficer/guard should have had the capability to monitor the local PD channel.
In many states in the West I know, and believe is true in many states in the East, Railroad Police officers have full arrest powers as to crimes committed on railroad property. I worked for a short line in Washington State with one company cop, and he had a dog. The locals called him with some frequency since they did not have a dog. One could argue that chasing Yakima's bad guys was a waste of railroad resources, but it certainly bought the company a lot of good will among the working cops all along the line.
This situation is a bit different in that the security guard was NOT a railroad police officer. He certainly did not have a dog to trade for good will. Since he was a security guard I do not know if he was armed or not. If not, he served little purpose except to absorb bullets.
I think we would agree that his job was to protect the CN's property, equipment and employees within the limits of the IM terminal. Assuming he was armed, if he had the ability to monitor the local PD, he could have heard about the bad guy trying to esacpe in a motor vehicle. That is relevant to CN and the guard in two ways. First, the bad guy may be a threat to CN assets. Second the bad guy may be a threat to the guard. To my mind either of these threats are sufficient that management should have enabled and required him to monitor the local police channel.
If he had that capability would it have made a difference? I do not know. He could have missed the relevant transmissions for any of a dozen reasons. He could have heard them but failed to recognize their import in the moment. He could have heard them and taken evasive action if unarmed, or been on alert, perhaps with gun drawn if he was armed. Even armed and on alert he could have lost the fight, but he would have had a much better chance than he did in fact.
Despite my affinity for the railroad, I would be leaning toward a big award to the plaintiff if I were on the jury.
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