Locally, there is something in the news about possible health issues concerning a brownfield area downtown along the railroad tracks. The old Milwaukee Road yard was built on top of a filled in swamp. It had been converted to a junkyard when the Milwaukee went away. Some transients had burned down the roundhouse that was full of car parts. Then, after 100+ years of yucky stuff soaking into the ground next to the river, the city bought the land for redevelopment. As the city spent millions of tax dollars to clean up the mess, they shipped hundreds of truckloads of contaminated soil to a site in Utah, Nevada, or somewhere out there. All while an active rail line- with a siding- ran through the middle of the property. It seems like long hauls of heavy, low-value (worthless dirt in this case) freight long distances would be right up the railroad’s alley. Are railroads ever used for hauling contaminated dirt?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
All the time!The fact that they felt that trucks gave them better value is amazing.There was one site in Oak Park/Forest Park that was specifically set up for removal of contaminated dirt from an area; it was loaded into containers, which went on to CSX trains for some site in Michigan, as I recall. Usually gons are the preferred mode; more often than not tarps cover the loads.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
I may not be right on target here but the contaminated dirt would still be considered a hazardous material and require special handling. I would assume that covered hoppers would be needed to handle the material and would have to be cleaned pretty thoroughly before being returned to service. All of this drives up costs, which would have to be built into what might be a one-time-only rate.
Would a carload of dirty dirt have to have a plackard?
Murphy SidingThen, after 100+ years of yucky stuff soaking into the ground next to the river, the city bought the land for redevelopment. As the city spent millions of tax dollars to clean up the mess, they shipped hundreds of truckloads of contaminated soil to a site in Utah, Nevada, or somewhere out there.
Why weren't the original owners (or their corporate succesors) billed for clean up?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
CSSHEGEWISCH I may not be right on target here but the contaminated dirt would still be considered a hazardous material and require special handling. I would assume that covered hoppers would be needed to handle the material and would have to be cleaned pretty thoroughly before being returned to service. All of this drives up costs, which would have to be built into what might be a one-time-only rate.
We used to have a "dirty dirt" unit train. I remember gondolas, low side and high side, with clamped plastic covers.
Some, maybe most now, goes in containers. The link has a picture of some, derailed, that the story says were hauling contaminated soil. http://www.northjersey.com/news/business/nutley-commissioners-question-contaminant-transport-and-track-maintenance-after-derailment-1.1461910?page=all
Jeff
Jeff: Wine-Door gons (high bottom /hinged bottom cars, hardly made or seen anymore) still move dirt the old fashioned way. Plenty of burrito cars (gons with dirt surrounded by plastic sheeting or fabric liners) out there as well as the containers.
Why is city paying for this?...because the city wanted to redevelop the land and did not have the foresight?
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
All the results of the dredging of the Hudson River (GE/PCBs) travelled somewhere by rail - I don't know where it ended up.
I've seen "burrito cars" before, and in the recent past.
I know of a site in a former NYC rail yard where they went down some 12 feet and were still digging up "dirty dirt." And that's mostly fill there, too.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
jrbernier Why is city paying for this?...because the city wanted to redevelop the land and did not have the foresight?
Ding ding! We have the winner. The city also lacked patience. The previous owners probably did not have the money to fix the problems that they inherited from the railroad. They probably got the property at a fire sale price. In the end, I doubt anybody up the chain had any money to fix this. Consequently, fools rush in where angels fear to tread, especially if they are spending someone else’s money.
CShaveRR All the time!The fact that they felt that trucks gave them better value is amazing.There was one site in Oak Park/Forest Park that was specifically set up for removal of contaminated dirt from an area; it was loaded into containers, which went on to CSX trains for some site in Michigan, as I recall. Usually gons are the preferred mode; more often than not tarps cover the loads.
Carl,
We have enough dirty dirt of our own. Thanks, but no thanks.
Norm
There's never money to pay for the clean up, but there's money to pay for the lawyers to avoid paying for the clean up. The legal bill is probably a bargain compared to the cleaning bill.
Murphy Siding jrbernier Why is city paying for this?...because the city wanted to redevelop the land and did not have the foresight? Ding ding! We have the winner. The city also lacked patience. The previous owners probably did not have the money to fix the problems that they inherited from the railroad. They probably got the property at a fire sale price. In the end, I doubt anybody up the chain had any money to fix this. Consequently, fools rush in where angels fear to tread, especially if they are spending someone else’s money.
And then the file to be a EPA Super Fund clean up site.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
(Convenient to always blame railroads for dirty dirt. Doesn't always pass the smell test. Railroads frequently blamed for things out of their control or accepted practice changes over the years)
The original owner and polluter was the Milwaukee Road, now owned by CP? Why not go after them?
schlimm jrbernier Why is city paying for this?...because the city wanted to redevelop the land and did not have the foresight? The original owner and polluter was the Milwaukee Road, now owned by CP? Why not go after them?
CSSHEGEWISCHI would assume that covered hoppers would be needed to handle the material
Most dirty dirt is shipped in gons, typically ex coal gons or open top containers that look like dump truck beds. IN both cases they were covered with tarps. I can't think of a single shipment that used covered hoppers.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Yup...NOS class 9....we have a PTRA customer that handles dirty dirt all the time, they burn it up!
The dirt arrives in what looks like smallish dumpsters that fit on a spine car, one designed just for these containers/dumpsters, they stack like intermodal boxes, and have tarps on top to keep the dirt in.
23 17 46 11
Since dirty dirt and such contaminants need to be encapsulated, I wonder if the fine folks of (insert city name here) thought about encapsulating-in-place. You know, like shelter-in-place.
It's a two-fer.
You encapsulate the yucky stuff, and you get a 12" thick concrete slab foundation for, I don't know, an Ikea and a Starbucks and a parking garage. You know, something really useful.
Might be cheaper.
Ed
Probably because a good part of the pollution happened before there was a law? It's an old principle of American justice that you don't go after people who "broke the law" before there was one.
7j43k Since dirty dirt and such contaminants need to be encapsulated, I wonder if the fine folks of (insert city name here) thought about encapsulating-in-place. You know, like shelter-in-place. It's a two-fer. You encapsulate the yucky stuff, and you get a 12" thick concrete slab foundation for, I don't know, an Ikea and a Starbucks and a parking garage. You know, something really useful. Might be cheaper. Ed
Murphy SidingFrost line in our area is 42" down. Pouring a 12" slab foundation on top is not an option.
Why?
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
Mookie Murphy Siding Why?
Murphy Siding
For one thing, because freeze-thaw cycling would break down the encapsulation and possibly heave the concrete. You'd need a cap structure that would ensure stability reasonably below that frost line ... a relatively thin concrete layer, even if tendon-reinforced, won't assure you that.
edblysard Yup...NOS class 9....we have a PTRA customer that handles dirty dirt all the time, they burn it up! The dirt arrives in what looks like smallish dumpsters that fit on a spine car, one designed just for these containers/dumpsters, they stack like intermodal boxes, and have tarps on top to keep the dirt in.
Johnny
Mookie Murphy Siding Frost line in our area is 42" down. Pouring a 12" slab foundation on top is not an option. Why?
Murphy Siding Frost line in our area is 42" down. Pouring a 12" slab foundation on top is not an option.
You may also need to mitigate any further leakage BELOW the contaminated soil, which might be hundreds of feet down... i.e.: dig it all out, line the pit with clay or some other (considered) inpermeable layer, then put it all back, tamp it down, cover it and then build on top of it. Granted, the water table might already be contaminated due to leakage up to the date when it is decided that it is not supposed to happen, but present ideology is to arrest any further contamination.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Information appreciated.
Murphy - I tried to find out Lincoln's frost line and kept coming up with 42", same as your area. Since all our winter cold comes from your area, that might be right. We have pretty much clay soil - are you the same? And they tell me that our water table is fairly deep. Sam - in KS - however always seems to be warmer than us. Kind of like we are the end of the line for seriously stupid weather in winter.
Anyway - I always learn something on the forum.
dakotafred Probably because a good part of the pollution happened before there was a law? It's an old principle of American justice that you don't go after people who "broke the law" before there was one.
It is specifically written in the main part of the US Constitution that "ex post facto" laws are prohibited. That's something that came to mind with regards to this thread. IANAL, so I don't know if the ex post facto provisions apply to civil cases as opposed to criminal cases.
On the other hand, I do remember reading with disgust about the redevelopment agency involved with the downtown baseball stadium saying that landowners facing eminent domain taking of the land would be financially responsible for underground gasolene plumes even if they were unaware of the plumes AND had no part in the plume being there in the first place.
I'm sure our frost line is at least 42" down - although at my house, it's a moot point as the bedrock isn't all that deep. In fact, I suspect my foundation is on bedrock. They had to blast to install a new 1000 gallon septic tank a few years ago.
tree68 I'm sure our frost line is at least 42" down - although at my house, it's a moot point as the bedrock isn't all that deep. In fact, I suspect my foundation is on bedrock. They had to blast to install a new 1000 gallon septic tank a few years ago.
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