What's next for Trackside with Trains? Share your thoughts

[zugmann]

Euclid

It is the contest that defines the winner. Isn't that what a contest is for?

I think most photo contests are stupid.

[Euclid]

tree68

 

Euclid

Choosing the best photograph without a theme forces the choice to focus only on the quality of the photograph, which is the ultimate point. 

 

 

Alas, this opens things up to the point of absurdity.  A contributor can send image after image of 3/4 shots of steam locomotives - always a popular choice - while another goes to the trouble to take a great shot that is deserving of a win, but still isn't as popular as a 3/4 shot of steam in the snow.

If the 3/4 shot of steam in the snow was popular enough to win the contest, how do you conclude that another shot was deserving of the win?

It is the contest that defines the winner.  Isn't that what a contest is for? 

[Euclid]

zugmann

Have you ever entered one of these trackside contests yet?

No I have not participated in the photo contest or any others for that matter.  I have no desire to do so.  However, I have at times, desired to produce great photographs, and illustrations.  At the start of this thread, Brain said this: “So I want to hear your ideas on how to make Trackside with Trains relevant again.”

Actually, I did not know that it had become irrelevant.  But since he asked, I brought up something that I have brought up before here in a couple other threads.  That is the theme.  Here and before, I get the same response, that being that the theme is essential. 

These are some of the reasons given for why the theme is essential:

1. Everybody wants it.

2. It adds a small challenge.

3. It prevents opening the contest to the point of absurdity.

4. It forces photographers out of their comfort zone.

5. It reveals how well the subject matches the theme.

[zugmann]

I doubt there would be lots of entires no matter what.

 

 

[Euclid]

Murphy Siding

 

Euclid

 .....I see the Trains contest theme as limiting the scope of the subject.......

 

 

 

 

 

 Yes.  That's the point.  If there were no theme, we'd be looking at thousands of real pretty 3/4 wedge shots of shiny new locomotives.

That is an interesting point.  Would that really happen?  Would the contest be flooded with contestants if there were no theme?  I cannot imaging why the requirement for a theme would dampen participation down to maybe a dozen entries, whereas waiving the theme would result in thousands of entries.  I don't see the theme as being that much of a hurdle. 

[Murphy Siding]

Theme?  How 'bout

*railroad shot with no locomotive in the photo

*inactive rail line

*long gone...

*a certain engine> GEEP / Alco / Switcher / Yard goat

Have we had one of foreign power- locomotives obviously not on home road?

[Norm48327]

Euclid

so that is why it matters if a crossbuck theme is imposed.

Because I hold the copyright to the crossbuck image that is my avatar.

[Murphy Siding]

Euclid

 .....I see the Trains contest theme as limiting the scope of the subject.......

 

 

 Yes.  That's the point.  If there were no theme, we'd be looking at thousands of real pretty 3/4 wedge shots of shiny new locomotives.

[tree68]

This discussion has been down this road before.  With the same player making the same argument - and so far I can't think of anyone else supporting the "no themes" concept.

[zugmann]

Then why limit it to railroads?  Plenty of excellent non-railroad photos could be used here to provide guidance that could be then used for railroad photos.  Either have themes or not.  "Railroading" is a cop out.  You don't want a theme except for the theme you want.

 

Have you ever entered one of these trackside contests yet?

[Euclid]

zugmann

 

Euclid

I am referring to a theme other than the default theme of railroading.

 

 

So what does it matter if a theme is "crossbucks" vs. "railroading"?  they're both themes.

 

It matters because the subject of crossbucks is so specific compared to the broader subject of railroading.  I see the Trains contest theme as limiting the scope of the subject.  Being that the contest is in the context of railroading, I do not see the default theme of railroading as limiting at all.  I prefer no limiting so that is why it matters if a crossbuck theme is imposed.

[zugmann]

Euclid

I am referring to a theme other than the default theme of railroading.

So what does it matter if a theme is "crossbucks" vs. "railroading"?  they're both themes.

[Euclid]

zugmann

 

Euclid

I think that just submitting good photos is enough. I know a lot of people insist on a theme. I just have not heard a good reason why. Nor do I see any plausible explanation for requiring a theme other than railroading.

 

 

I haven't heard a good reason not to have a theme either.

 

I am referring to a theme other than the default theme of railroading. 

[zugmann]

Euclid

I think that just submitting good photos is enough. I know a lot of people insist on a theme. I just have not heard a good reason why. Nor do I see any plausible explanation for requiring a theme other than railroading.

I haven't heard a good reason not to have a theme either.

[Euclid]

[quote user="tree68"]

 

Euclid

I googled photo contest themes, and see that stipulating a theme is very common.  These photo contests are for people whose common interest is mainly photography, but the subjects they photograph could be anything.  So the stated theme just narrows it down one step from photographs of anything. 

With the photo contest here, without a stated theme, there would still be the category and common interest of railroads/trains, which would be equivalent to the single theme stipulated in most general photo contests.  So if Trains magazine sponsored a photo contest, I would expect it would follow the theme of railroads/trains.  Then that subject would be equivalent to the stated theme of most general photo contests.  

But - why would a photography site have to have a theme?  Isn't just submitting good photographs enough?

Everyone else has stated the same case for themes. [quote]

 

 

I think that just submitting good photos is enough.  I know a lot of people insist on a theme.  I just have not heard a good reason why.  Nor do I see any plausible explanation for requiring a theme other than railroading. 

With or without a theme, there will be a ranking which will include a winner. 

Trains magazine has no theme except for railroading.  Everybody finds that to be acceptable.  People pick their favorite issues depending on the coverage.  They would never question that unless the magazine suddenly ran an issue all about mining machinery or something not related to railroading.

So what would be the practical problem with a photo contest without a theme? 

[tree68]

Euclid

I googled photo contest themes, and see that stipulating a theme is very common.  These photo contests are for people whose common interest is mainly photography, but the subjects they photograph could be anything.  So the stated theme just narrows it down one step from photographs of anything. 

With the photo contest here, without a stated theme, there would still be the category and common interest of railroads/trains, which would be equivalent to the single theme stipulated in most general photo contests.  So if Trains magazine sponsored a photo contest, I would expect it would follow the theme of railroads/trains.  Then that subject would be equivalent to the stated theme of most general photo contests.  

But - why would a photography site have to have a theme?  Isn't just submitting good photographs enough?

Everyone else has stated the same case for themes.  My search on Google found a dog picture site that uses themes.  Isn't enough just to have pictures of dogs?  How about New York City?  One contest focused on the City has themes for submissions to their site.  You'd think that there are enough photo subjects in NYC that you wouldn't need themes.

Once again - theme one time, open the next...

[cx500]

I always consider how well a photograph matches the theme, or at least my interpretation of the theme, before voting.  To me that is nearly as important as the artistic merit. 

It also forces me to rack my aging brain to consider if anything in my 25,000 images both matches the theme and has sufficient quality.  And also think about how I missed opportunities in the past.  Or even try to fill in gaps that I ignored in the past.  Defining a theme is a wonderful challenge to vary our personal rail photography style.

I don't see how Trackside could be managed without some sort of theme to control the number of entries.  Like all art forms, what is deemed "best" will be entirely subjective and a matter of personal taste.  Some will always vote for steam, or insist on the locomotive occupying most of the frame.  That dramatically backlit scene with storm cloud willl not please some because they can't see the detail of the train.  Specifying a theme allows a greater variety to become potential winners.

One comment I will make is that the lead time between the announcement of the theme and the submission deadline is too short.  It requires time to consider how to interpret the theme, and then figure out if I have anything that might qualify.  Rarely does anything immediately jump out in my mind.

John 

[zugmann]

Euclid

Going one step further and adding a theme further differentiated from the general interest in railroad/trains strikes me as distracting. It is like combining an artistic/technical photo contest with a scavenger hunt.

You call it distrracting.  I call it a a bit of a challenge.  Just having a general "show us train pictures" would be boring.  I mean, seriously, if I just want to see train photos - there's tons of sites that do just that.  We need something a bit more to make trackside stand out.

And it's not like the votes on these things are scientific by any means.  The handful of people that bother to vote just vote their interests.  And steam almost always rules, even if the photo sucks.

But as Brian said (or at least alluded to?  Inferred?) in the opening post - it has to go beyond just a generic, ho-hum, railfan photography contest/show-off gallery.  Those are a dime a dozen.  It needs substance, discussion, direction, something.  Now I'm not saying it would succeed either.  As I said before (I think I said it before - I'm not going to bother to look), this is not a real photography-focused discussion site like some others are.  Look at the post by CMStPnP about selecting a camera.  Up for several days and it got a measley 12 replies and a paltry 400-odd views.  I just don't know if the interest is there for trackside to succeeed in any form, to be honest.  

[Euclid]

tree68

 

Euclid

So why add the artificial extra burden of the subject needing to fit a select theme within the broader category of railroading?  It adds nothing to the viewing excellence of the photograph. Try it without a theme and see what happens.  In what way would it not work?  There are bound to be winners.  What more is needed?  I think it would open the contest up to greater creativity. 

 

 

And you may be right - but one person can look at a fantastically creative photo and wonder what the photographer was trying to say.  Another may get it right away.   Yet another may just think it's a good (or lousy) picture.  Some may just vote for a picture because they like steam in the snow, even thought there may be better images technically.

I, too, like the idea of mixing it up.  Open sometimes, thematic others.

Having a theme, though, forces a photographer to turn the mundane into art.  There are many ways one could portray "railroad crossing."  How would you go about making your entry unique, attractive, and technically appealing?  A crossbuck in a cornfield?  Time lapse of gates coming down?  A pile of old crossing equipment in the back corner of an old yard?  There are myriad possibilities.  

Best of all, it forces you out of your comfort zone - making you compose images you might otherwise have not considered.

 

It is true that the voting will take the subject into account, and in with some voters, the preference for the subject will override all technical/artistic characteristics of the photo being judged.  So in thinking about this more, I should clarify that by eliminating the theme, and focusing only on the technical and artistic perfection, I don’t mean that subject should be dismissed in the picture taking or in the voting.  The subject would be part of the art. 

I googled photo contest themes, and see that stipulating a theme is very common.  These photo contests are for people whose common interest is mainly photography, but the subjects they photograph could be anything.  So the stated theme just narrows it down one step from photographs of anything. 

With the photo contest here, without a stated theme, there would still be the category and common interest of railroads/trains, which would be equivalent to the single theme stipulated in most general photo contests.  So if Trains magazine sponsored a photo contest, I would expect it would follow the theme of railroads/trains.  Then that subject would be equivalent to the stated theme of most general photo contests.  

Going one step further and adding a theme further differentiated from the general interest in railroad/trains strikes me as distracting.  It is like combining an artistic/technical photo contest with a scavenger hunt.   

How would you judge a photo that you thought was technically/artistically the winner, but did not match the theme quite as well as another photo that was less perfect technically/artistically?  At that point, it is like comparing apples to oranges.  If you just let the theme of the contest be the subject of railroads/trains, then the editors could screen entries to make sure they portrayed that broad subject category.  So the contest would pose no question of matching a theme. 

Let me ask this: With the Trains contests, has it ever been clarified as to whether or not the success of matching the theme is counted toward the winning entry?  If it has not, how can the contest be considered fair and objective?   

When I compose a photo, I might have some idea in mind, but certainly nothing as elaborate as might be worthy of an attempt to win a contest.  A lot times, what I might have in mind might not exist at the site, or it may be in poor lighting.  So my approach to photography is more like fishing.  I walk around and use my eyes to find things that look good.  Then, if I find one, I take a picture of it.  It is purely by chance.  That approach accounts for lighting, subject, and composition when they happen to show up looking good. 

So I find the picture that I like first, rather than search for the fulfillment of a preconceived idea for a picture.  Although, there is always some degree of a preconceived idea involved.  And also, this fishing approach only works with mostly stationary subjects.  It won’t work much for action shots of trains. 

[zugmann]

tree68

I, too, like the idea of mixing it up. Open sometimes, thematic others.

And you don't even have to do audience participation themes each time, either.  You could have tracksides that feature a photographer, his work, and a few paragraphs.  Or a trackside discussing equipment.   Just add some variety to it.

[tree68]

Euclid

So why add the artificial extra burden of the subject needing to fit a select theme within the broader category of railroading?  It adds nothing to the viewing excellence of the photograph. Try it without a theme and see what happens.  In what way would it not work?  There are bound to be winners.  What more is needed?  I think it would open the contest up to greater creativity. 

And you may be right - but one person can look at a fantastically creative photo and wonder what the photographer was trying to say.  Another may get it right away.   Yet another may just think it's a good (or lousy) picture.  Some may just vote for a picture because they like steam in the snow, even thought there may be better images technically.

I, too, like the idea of mixing it up.  Open sometimes, thematic others.

Having a theme, though, forces a photographer to turn the mundane into art.  There are many ways one could portray "railroad crossing."  How would you go about making your entry unique, attractive, and technically appealing?  A crossbuck in a cornfield?  Time lapse of gates coming down?  A pile of old crossing equipment in the back corner of an old yard?  There are myriad possibilities.  

Best of all, it forces you out of your comfort zone - making you compose images you might otherwise have not considered.

[edblysard]

zugmann

Or shake it up.  Don't have to do the same thing every time.  Have one month/week/fortnight be a subject, one be an assignment, then one be open-ended.

 

Yeah, sounds even better...

[saguaro]

I agree with this comment. Let people sign up to get a regular reminder. I always seem to be too late to enter and I am not on the site more than once a week, so it is easy to miss an announcement that is posted on the site.

[zugmann]

Or shake it up.  Don't have to do the same thing every time.  Have one month/week/fortnight be a subject, one be an assignment, then one be open-ended.

[edblysard]

 I think Brian is right, a higher standard than the current simple requirement to provide a caption would up the learning experience.

I don't care if a photo is from someone's archive, as long as the technical info, along with a relevant caption come with it...in fact, I like the old locomotives and old shots of the way it was back then.

That, and maybe narrowing down the theme to a more specific requirement....instead of something broad, such as "Summer", which if you live in Nebraska means something totally different than what Texans calls summer, the theme could be "Hauling in the Heat"....

or "Summer time Nights"....

And, once the winner has been selected, have them provide a short paragraph or two on how they went about getting the shot. 

[zugmann]

Euclid

So why add the artificial extra burden of the subject needing to fit a select theme within the broader category of railroading? It adds nothing to the viewing excellence of the photograph.

It adds a small challenge.  If I want to see generic and good rail pictures - I'll just open up my Flickr feed.  Plenty of awesome rail photogs on there.  

 

[Euclid]

tree68

 

Euclid

Choosing the best photograph without a theme forces the choice to focus only on the quality of the photograph, which is the ultimate point. 

 

 

Alas, this opens things up to the point of absurdity.  A contributor can send image after image of 3/4 shots of steam locomotives - always a popular choice - while another goes to the trouble to take a great shot that is deserving of a win, but still isn't as popular as a 3/4 shot of steam in the snow.

Having a specific topic means submissions will have a grain of commonality.  If the theme is flowers, the challenge to the photographer is creating/finding (in their archives) an image that includes trains and flowers in proper balance.  Otherwise, they can run down to the crossing and take another 3/4 shot of one of the commemorative locomotives and send it in.

That said, maybe an occasional "open" competition could be held.    And even that could have a "theme" - images captured with the past couple of weeks, f'rinstance.

 

Well if the contest is strictly a photo contest without a theme (except being railroad related), the photos should be judged only on their merit of art and technical aspects of photography, and not on the subject matter.  So wedge shots, or commemorative locomotive shots of little technical or artistic perfection should not win.  However, a wedge shot with a combination of unusual drama, overall great composition, exceptional clarity, and great lighting might win.  

Of course, to be strictly a photo contest, it has to be judged only on that basis.  As it is now, with the theme, it is clear the people vote on the basis of both photo excellence and how well it fits the theme.  So if fitting a theme is part of the contest, it has to interfere with the photographic art and technical characteristics.  In that way, having a theme sort of “dumbs down” the photo contest.

The Trains editors should just try it and see how it goes.  Achieving great technical and artistic results in railroad photograph is relatively difficult for a variety of reasons.  One big reason is legal access.  Another reason is the difficulty of catching a train in the ideal composition, lighting, etc.  So why add the artificial extra burden of the subject needing to fit a select theme within the broader category of railroading?  It adds nothing to the viewing excellence of the photograph.

Try it without a theme and see what happens.  In what way would it not work?  There are bound to be winners.  What more is needed?  I think it would open the contest up to greater creativity. 

[Goofyjim]

Hello,

I just wanted to say that I am an hobbyist photographer. All of my life I have loved trains and taking photos. In the last 2 years I have been working on my photography skills. After getting my first DLSR almost 2 years ago I started looking what I could do with my photos. I first found the annual photo contest and then I found Trackside with Trains. For me I like the idea of a topic every other week, so it gets me out shooting new photos with a theme in mind. I would like maybe one change is the photo must not be any older than 1 year(maybe 18 months). This way the images are fairly fresh. Seeing a shot from 1997 is great, but I think Trackside with Trains might be better with newer photos

[zardoz]

zugmann

I would ditch the whole voting thing, period. Doesn't really serve any purpose than to inflate some egos, maybe?

 And what is so bad about having one's ego stroked?

zugmann

And even just picking a random theme and having people find a photo in their archives that somewhat matches seems pretty anticlimatic.   I'd like to see the site do what other photog sites do and have photo assignments - where it makes people go out to shoot new photos that deal with a theme.  That's if anyone would bother.  Maybe they wouldn't.  I don't know.

However, some of us are no longer mobile enough to go clamoring through the brush or climbing hills or trekking thru the woods, and thus are mostly restricted to using archived photos

[tree68]

Euclid

Choosing the best photograph without a theme forces the choice to focus only on the quality of the photograph, which is the ultimate point. 

Alas, this opens things up to the point of absurdity.  A contributor can send image after image of 3/4 shots of steam locomotives - always a popular choice - while another goes to the trouble to take a great shot that is deserving of a win, but still isn't as popular as a 3/4 shot of steam in the snow.

Having a specific topic means submissions will have a grain of commonality.  If the theme is flowers, the challenge to the photographer is creating/finding (in their archives) an image that includes trains and flowers in proper balance.  Otherwise, they can run down to the crossing and take another 3/4 shot of one of the commemorative locomotives and send it in.

That said, maybe an occasional "open" competition could be held.    And even that could have a "theme" - images captured with the past couple of weeks, f'rinstance.