Today, Friday, August 19, 2016, Amtrak No. 3 bypassed Cajon Pass and went via Mojave and Metrolink’s Soledad Canyon.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
K. P. Harrier Today, Friday, August 19, 2016, Amtrak No. 3 bypassed Cajon Pass and went via Mojave and Metrolink’s Soledad Canyon.
Probably faster than wading through the BNSF backlog and easier than changing plans back to the standard route at this point. Just a guess.
Some westbound traffic was being tied down in sidings as far east as KS on Panhandle Sub. With low traffic Thursday, four Wellington crews deadheaded home together on the North Bay9. This was more like no train Thur instead of the normal no train Tue
SFbrkmnSome westbound traffic was being tied down in sidings as far east as KS on Panhandle Sub.
Yeah, you can hold only so much at Barstow and Victorville, or Belen, etc.
On a related thought, how much UP traffic north out of LA is now using the Coast Route? Since it looks like the Palmdale cutoff will be out of service for a few more days, that route should pick up a little of the slack, as I would guess daytime movements through Soledad Canyon would be dicey because of Metrolink traffic.
ChuckCobleigh (8-19):
It is understood UP is rerouting some traffic out of both Los Angeles and West Colton Yard up the Coast Line to Eugene, Portland, and Seattle. Much of UP‘s Coast Line (Los Angeles-Bay Area, except the Metrolink portion) is Automatic Block Signals (ABS) only, and a mixture of medium (6000-feet) and short (3000-feet) sidings. The problem UP encountered a long time ago is that so many passenger-type trains use the line that an agreement or order is in place that UP trains cannot leave a switch locked in open position when entering or leaving a siding, as done elsewhere, like in the Midwest, etc., where no passenger or commuter trains share the tracks. Open switches are understood to be on warrants for those lines. But, it was too disruptive for passenger and commuter trains to slow down (as with yellow signals) and stop for open switches somewhere (“somewhere”) beyond a red signal. I have no idea how UP handles that under adverse reroute situations, if an extra crewmember rides a caboose, a roadway vehicle follows the train, etc. to realign switches. All that must be giving the operating planners ulcers, as well as the accountants.
Take care,
K.P.
Why run all the way up to Eugene and Portland instead of going via Oakland, and Sacramento over the Donner pass east via Denver? Seens like they have chosen the long way around.
caldreamerWhy run all the way up to Eugene and Portland instead of going via Oakland, and Sacramento over the Donner pass east via Denver? Seens like they have chosen the long way around.
I would imagine 'detour' routing is fully dependent up on availability of resources that can be used for the additional movements.
I am guessing that Donner Pass routing may be more crew and power intensive than the longer route.
Just because a carrier has a route between A & Q doesn't mean that it can handle additional detour traffic. Tonnage and/or train handling restrictions may require a trains to be handled in multiple segments across a particular route versus a longer route being able to handle the train intact; additionally there may be clearence restrictions that affect the handling of trains.
The carriers know their properties and know which routes can handle additional traffic and which routes can't. There may be power issues, there may be manpower issues, there may be issues we don't know about.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
caldreamer (8-19):
I was thinking of just the I-5 Corridor The LA&SL runs should be unaffected, except for congestion on the two- and triple-track BNSF portion, IF there is sufficient rested BNSF crews for there to be congestion.
Best,
Wonder how many crews UP keeps qualified on the coast line that are not assigned to the line ? It would appear that the class 1s need to qualify crews on other districts just for problems like this. Probably would need a change to the RR wide union agreements ?
blue streak 1Wonder how many crews UP keeps qualified on the coast line that are not assigned to the line ? It would appear that the class 1s need to qualify crews on other districts just for problems like this. Probably would need a change to the RR wide union agreements ?
Problem is not so much Union related as it is FRA Qualifications related. To maintain qualifications on a line segment engineers and conductors must have had a trip over the territory in the past year in accordance with strict interpertation of the FRA Qualification rules. Employees on an extra list will 'normally' become qualified and maintain qualifications on most all runs that the particular extra list protects. Once the employee attains enough seniority to hold a position other than the extra list, they will begin to time out their qualifications on territories they aren't actively working.
Postings on other sites indicate that a UP contractor is already onsite and demolishing / prepping the damaged Mojave sub bridge over former Rte 66. Due to its location I'm not sure if a certain photog in his POV could get anywhere close to this area, especially since the USFS has probably closed all routine access. With all of the aerial firedrops west of I-15 in progress drone operators are being warned to Stay The Heck Away!!
UP is also attempting to reroute some trains between Palmdale and DTLA via Metrolink, but due to the above mentioned qualifications needed most of them will need Metrolink pilots. The UP will have the same problem on their own Coast line as not many crews are current on that territory end-to-end.
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
Palmdale Cutoff Open
A contact advises the severed line is now open, so the bridge was either repaired or replaced. Unfortunately, Highway 138 is still closed account of the wildfire, but the I-15 Freeway is open. K.P. hopes to be able get out that way today and see what the bridge situation is.
K. P. Harrier Palmdale Cutoff Open A contact advises the severed line is now open, so the bridge was either repaired or replaced. Unfortunately, Highway 138 is still closed account of the wildfire, but the I-15 Freeway is open. K.P. hopes to be able get out that way today and see what the bridge situation is.
Well, that was fast!
Maybe the contractors could come down and show our city how to do things quickly. We have a main arterial with three lanes in each direction, the two middle ones stripped of pavement in each direction, New Jersey barriers up to surround the area which has been for weeks, so far as I have seen, merely a parking lot for some construction equipment that is not moved day-to-day.
We drive the remains of that street every other day or so and have not seen anybody working for several weeks. Then I see another example of railroad rapid response and realize that our city folks have absolutely no sense of urgency about anything but padding their pensions. (That has become a sore point in San Diego over the past few years.)
OK, stepping off the soap box now.
I'm a really long way from the site, but if BNSF have opened two of three tracks, it seems likely that the double tracks are OK and the old single track is closed.
Since UP have opened their line, logic suggests that the burnt bridge is in fact the one illustrated by KP earlier on the old main line. The girders and abutments in KP's photo match those in the burnt bridge.
It seems likely that the three later built tracks which are closer together are still operational and the old main line further away suffered worse.
M636C
ChuckCobleigh...our city folks have absolutely no sense of urgency...
I'm willing to bet that if you were to check around the area you'd find that the contractor with that job has several other jobs underway, and moves their people to wherever the complaints are the loudest. Once those people are placated, they'll come back and work on your road... Maybe.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
A Glimpse
K.P. was in Cajon Pass earlier today, Saturday, August 20, 2016, and as he expected, conditions were super adverse for getting a glimpse of and photographing the UP (ex-SP) bridge (left) and the BNSF (right) one.
The UP Bridge (left) was surprisingly of the same basic design, with two spans over a dirt road. The end sections seemed to be pre-stressed concrete whereas before they were metal. The BNSF one seems (“seems”) to be a totally new design.
The strange photo color was caused by the car's window tinting.
The above photo was rather severely cropped and blown-up. It did not seem feasible to get close to the new bridges, at least not at this time. K.P. was able to photograph the quite charred Summit area, though, but the tracks, signals and their boxes seemed unscathed. It is hoped some of those photos can be posted in a day or two.
It is Confirmed!
The UP (ex-SP) Palmdale Cutoff bridge over the dirt road adjacent to the I-15 Freeway is an entirely new bridge. K.P. has seen photos of the new bridge, including the old bridge cut up laying nearby.
From the Cal OES website here are a few photos of the bridge burning.
http://www.oesnews.com/rr-trestle-burned-blue-cut-fire-undergoing-rapid-repairs/
https://youtu.be/_EDojhaUtTc
Their mediocre videos show brief glimpses of the bridge repairs.
The 0:38 video in the oes.com link isn't worth your time to view. Essentially a single still photo of the work in the background. The ultimate "talking head".
Haven't watched the enire length of the other one (YouTube) yet (4:58 mins. long) - but some scenes do show the work in progress, so it'll be worth watching later on tonight.
- Paul North.
at about 2:02 in the second video they show the reconstruction. It looks like they saved the steel and are just replacing the deck.
rdamon at about 2:02 in the second video they show the reconstruction. It looks like they saved the steel and are just replacing the deck.
KP's report suggested a wholly new bridge but I'd be surprised if a new steel bridge could be provided in such a short time.
Perhaps KP saw scrap steel from the approach spans which were steel but are now reinforced concrete (according to KP).
It seems quite likely that UP might have standard short spans like the approches to the Cajon Pass bridge built for stock, and they might even have standard ballast deck sections available to replace wooden decks as the Cajon bridge clearly used. But to replace a bridge in that time, they must have had a really good organisation ready to go.
Having looked at the google earth images again, the track alignment in the photos of the burnt bridge only match the former SP bridge. I'm surprised that a wooden deck was used as late as the construction of the Palmdale cutoff.
Thinking about BNSF's statements, if their old line was still open, perhaps there was a 1905 era wooden deck bridge next to a reinforced concrete bridge from the recent triple tracking, resulting in only one of the two closely spaced tracks being open after the fire.
That is consistent with KP's comments, assuming the new line was on the north-east side in that location which I think is the case.
tree68 ChuckCobleigh ...our city folks have absolutely no sense of urgency... I'm willing to bet that if you were to check around the area you'd find that the contractor with that job has several other jobs underway, and moves their people to wherever the complaints are the loudest. Once those people are placated, they'll come back and work on your road... Maybe.
ChuckCobleigh ...our city folks have absolutely no sense of urgency...
The way to avoid that is to only give the contractor a reasonable (not excessive) contract time and a stiff monetary penalty for exceeding that time. The contract manager(s) need to keep up with how much work has been done versus how much of the contract time has elapsed, and if the contractor is behind schedule retain enough of his earnings to get his attention, and to cover the expected excessive time penalties. It takes a lot of work, and if done with a hard-nosed attitude one gets called some pretty nasty names, but it can be done.
Aftermath Views of the “Blue Cut” …
… Fire as Seen at Summit, CA
Photos Shot Saturday, August 20, 2016
At the Summit overlook area, looking BNSF railroad eastbound: This whole area just got scorched.
Telephoto view from the same observation point as above, pinkish fire retardant from an aerial drop is across fences and tracks at Summit (photo center).
Looking westbound from the other end of the overlook area, the wind driven fire burned some areas while leaving other untouched.
The above date was the first time the Highway 138 roadway was open EAST in the I-15 Freeway. As of post time, the Highway 138 west of I-15 remains closed.
Second Thoughts
A source that had actually been on the newly opened SP Palmdale Cutoff Bridge said it was new. However, in studying photos that K.P. possesses, he is having second thoughts. The main understructure of the two spans seems old. So, the main spans may have been reused, but its railings might be new, giving the structure a false new look.
It is unknown when public access to the site will be possible for an onsite look at the bridge.
Yes, some of those contractors, like the pyramid builders, seem to measure their completion time in generations. "My grandfather started on this project, and my son will be hiring on next year."
lidgerwoodplow Yes, some of those contractors, like the pyramid builders, seem to measure their completion time in generations. "My grandfather started on this project, and my son will be hiring on next year."
Two things come to mind here:
First, many times the contractor is right on schedule to complete the project by the date specified by the municipality. Just because they aren't working on it now doesn't mean they won't finish on time.
Second, some portions of a project have to sit. You can't pour bridge footings and drop the bridge structure on the same day. In fact, most pours have to cure for at least 3-7 days before you get on them. Many say that it takes at least 28 days for concrete to properly cure - and that may be written right into the contract. I've heard that the concrete in Hoover Dam is still curing.
So, what's a contractor to do? Pour the bridge abutments, then move to another project while the concrete cures. If there's no other work that can be done in the meantime, the worksite appears to sit idle.
KP, I wonder if this incident will not be the trigger for the rumored "future eastbound/northbound crossover" between BNSF Track 3 and the Cutoff as you pointed out in your Cajon Pass tripple tracking thread.
Hey Guys, Surprise!
On Monday evening, August 22, 2016, to K.P.’s unexpected surprise, the closed Highway 138 west of Interstate 15 was OPEN! And, there was NO dirt road blockage along the freeway to the bridges in question. Unfortunately, only the old camera was with him, but that is better than nothing!
The UP (SP) Palmdale Cutoff main spans look like they are from old, but the concrete spans seem new.
The center support structure:
The above photos were hurriedly prepared for posting. The BNSF bridges were photograph too! But, those photos will be prepared tomorrow after an important dispatch is taken care of, likely tomorrow night. But, a teaser … The BNSF Mains 1 and 2 bridge on the north side looks much as it did. But, the south side has had a radical treatment applied!
The BNSF Bridges by I-15
Cajon Pass, CA
Part “A” (of A-B)
Yesterday’s post (Monday, August 22, 2016), showed the UP (ex-SP) Palmdale Cutoff bridge by the I-15 Freeway that had heat-lowered in the fire but now was rebuilt and in service.. Looking the other way, towards the BNSF Bridge (Mains 1 and 2, with Chicago to the left), nothing seemed unusual.
If that above bridge suffered fire damage, it didn’t show it, at least from K.P.’s perspective. However, going under the bridge to the Main 2 side, the view is a very different story!
K.P. can’t imagine what that is all about! It is so exotic one wonders if a road was put along the tracks, but didn’t go over the public dirt road below the bridge.
The Mains 1 and 2 bridge close-up:
With the unusual bridge arrangement, might this Alray area be renamed Exotica?
Continued in Part “B"
Part “B” (of A-B)
We now go to BNSF Main 3. The forefront hill on the left is burnt. Also, the sun is now blocked by the surrounding hills.
A closer view: The woodwork by the ballast seems untouched. It may have burned and was repaired, but it looks fine
Earlier in the week radio chatter suggested Mains 2 and 3 were in service, but Main 1 was not. By the looks of the place now, one would have thought Main 2 would have been the track out of service. Regardless, these photos show the current status of the BNSF bridges. It is unknown if other bridges on the BNSF east of here were the ones with burn damage, but these look relatively OK except for the exotic one.
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