Maybe this will actually be built? I can just imagine how the NIMBY's will react.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/post-tribune/news/ct-ptb-surface-rail-board-st-0808-20160805-story.html
"'Tis many a slip, twixt the cup and the lip."
This project, no matter how much sense it might make, is so not going to happen in our lifetimes. But it is a cornacopia to attorneys and consultants.
Zardoz and NKP guy are right, alas; it will never happen. In this case, we can't blame only the NIMBYs, even remembering their opposition to something as benign as CN taking over EJ&E. The death blow is the refusal to participate by every Class I so far. Haven't seen a good explanation for that. CREATE sure doesn't answer the Chicago bottleneck.
Been to a couple of the meetings for the community enlightment of this project. No class 1's are for it. The company was not forthcoming on how they plan to get a 200 foot wide right of way, and 5 tracks over, around, through, under, at least 3 major interstates, one being 6 lanes wide. Crossing the UP and the BNSF main lines in several places, and all the other smaller county roads was brushed off as not important.
Was explained the the person who wants to do this, always wanted to build a railroad.
The State of Il is dead ass broke. If this gets started and left, then what??
Not really a "nimby" thing. Did not make the meeting down in Joliet, but a friend who went said they were told this would take thousands of semis off the the roads. Was hinted at, not said directly, that all the containers were being unloaded in Chicago and trucked to the East coast. Because it took so long to get through Chicago.
NKP guy "'Tis many a slip, twixt the cup and the lip." This project, no matter how much sense it might make, is so not going to happen in our lifetimes. But it is a cornacopia to attorneys and consultants.
Johnny
Most of the comments and postings on prior threads on this topic suggest that the promoters haven't thought this through very well. They failed to line up support of any of the Class 1 roads, they appear to have underestimated property acquisition and construction expenses and I'm not sure that they have any financing lined up.
Unless the promoters agree to grant overhead trackage rights to the various Class 1's to allow direct connections with each other, this project was doomed the day it was proposed.
CSSHEGEWISCH Most of the comments and postings on prior threads on this topic suggest that the promoters haven't thought this through very well. They failed to line up support of any of the Class 1 roads, they appear to have underestimated property acquisition and construction expenses and I'm not sure that they have any financing lined up. Unless the promoters agree to grant overhead trackage rights to the various Class 1's to allow direct connections with each other, this project was doomed the day it was proposed.
The original proposal that I saw was th grant those overhead trackage rights and run it like a toll road.
Johnny, regarding the cornucopia, it'll be the same people who usually fill it...taxpayers.
Perhaps, in this case, corporate attorneys and consultants ought to be similar to criminal lawyers, and only get paid if they win!
My question is, why does intermodal traffic have to go through Chicago? If it's going from the west to the east coast, it seems facilities could be built anywhere in the midwest. Is it because of the intrastructure already in place in Chicago?
BLS53My question is, why does intermodal traffic have to go through Chicago? If it's going from the west to the east coast, it seems facilities could be built anywhere in the midwest. Is it because of the intrastructure already in place in Chicago?
In addition to being a through point, a lot of intermodal traffic terminates in Chicago. The carriers are slowly developing strategies to consolidate and segregate traffic for movement to and through Chicago.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
[quote user="dakotafred"]
[/quote] Posted by Ladder1 on Friday, August 05, 2016 9:09 PM
"...Been to a couple of the meetings for the community enlightment of this project. No class 1's are for it. The company was not forthcoming on how they plan to get a 200 foot wide right of way, and 5 tracks over, around, through, under, at least 3 major interstates, one being 6 lanes wide. Crossing the UP and the BNSF main lines in several places, and all the other smaller county roads was brushed off as not important.
Not really a "nimby" thing. Did not make the meeting down in Joliet, but a friend who went said they were told this would take thousands of semis off the the roads. Was hinted at, not said directly, that all the containers were being unloaded in Chicago and trucked to the East coast. Because it took so long to get through Chicago..."
[/quote]
[My Prediction] This Railroad " Super By-pass" around Chicago is going to be a Lawyer's Win-Win, and their Win-Fall" I lived in Memphis, Tn during the "Great Battle to get I-40 Through Overton Park" in the 1950's & 60's....Rather than going through all that again..The interested can 'Google' that event. { In fact, I worked for the TnDOt Contractor who laid out design for it} It was the 'epic' Urban Road Battle- "Little Old Ladies vs. THE STATE". Went on for years, and was fought to a standstill.. The little Old Ladies won, and I-40 does not follow the old Street car ROW through the Park. See Citizens to Preserve Overton Park v. Volpe, 401 U.S. 402 (1971) In its absence you are gifted with an Urban interstate (I-240] That still goes around the city. but not through it. The lane count on ,in each directionI-240 went from two lanes; to four or more in many places on the by-pass. The neighborhoods that were demolished in preparation for the building of the 'denied link' have been re-populated, and reconstructed. Travel and traffic on the by-pass can be abyssmal, at times.
My point is, This GLBT railroad will be a similar distraction... To Ladder 1's point :"...No class 1's are for it. The company was not forthcoming on how they plan to get a 200 foot wide right of way, and 5 tracks over, around, through, under, at least 3 major interstates, one being 6 lanes wide. Crossing the UP and the BNSF main lines in several places, and all the other smaller county roads was brushed off as not important.
The State of Il is dead ass broke. If this gets started and left, then what?? ..."
You wind up with a 'Project that is too big to let go of..." The State of Ill. maybe Wisconsin(?), and probably, Indiana, as well(?) screaming like 'mashed cats' will demand that the Federal Government step in and make 'them all whole again' (?)
The lawyers will win another round, and the US Treasury will loose 'pallets of cash'. Winding up with a railroad nonbody [Class 1's] do not want or even want to maintain. Personally, I'd like the Popcorn Concession in 'The Windy" for this one.
This rail bypass won't get built unless it gets financed. Common carrier pipelines are not financed until they obtain "take or pay" contracts, where the oil companies ship so much oil or pay anyway. If no class I railroad is interested, there is no path forward for a bypass.
if you build it they will come.
they would be crazy not to.
rdettmer if you build it they will come. they would be crazy not to.
The crazy person would be the one who built it without commitments to use it at a price that would pay for its construction.
If what I've read in the past is true, there are ways to avoid Chicago. I'm sure some of them are in use.
The ultimate question would be what benefit this plan would have for the railroads. If none have bought in, one might surmise that the benefit isn't worth the cost - and possibly by a long shot.
Plans to rebuild road/highway systems often have studies done to determine who is going where - where they enter, where they leave. Forgive me if I've missed them, but have such studies been done in Chi-town?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
One thing that also puzzles me is why they propose to extend this loop north into Wisconsin to connect with Wisconsin & Southern. The traffic generated by that railroad can't possibly support the capital investment for approximately 75 miles of new build road.
The GM plant in Janesville - the big traffic generator for UP back in the day - has been shut down for the better part of a decade and it will be a huge surprise if it ever comes back.
Why they would put capital into what could be best described as an expensive branch line is very puzzling.
Of course, as has been stated in previous posts in this thread, the odds of this particular project ever seeing the light of day are infinitesimally small.
tree68 If what I've read in the past is true, there are ways to avoid Chicago. I'm sure some of them are in use. The ultimate question would be what benefit this plan would have for the railroads. If none have bought in, one might surmise that the benefit isn't worth the cost - and possibly by a long shot. Plans to rebuild road/highway systems often have studies done to determine who is going where - where they enter, where they leave. Forgive me if I've missed them, but have such studies been done in Chi-town?
Those studies resulted in something called CREATE, lots of simulation modeling.
The way I see it, there is no incentive for any of the major railroads to expedite traffic through Chicago. They are only interested in getting their trains into or out of Chicago; otherwise, it's someone else's problem. Now, after a couple of east-west mergers, I think they would take more of an interest.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
BuslistThose studies resulted in something called CREATE, lots of simulation modeling.
Aha! 2+2 does = 4!
Now if CREATE could soon create a more direct route in and out for the City of New Orleans...
I think the Cardinal/Hoosier State need a route into town worse than the CONO.
ELEVATION- Was the answer in several citys in the 1900s. Syracuse NY and several over cities elevated there main lines thru the city. Could we build one big elevated and or sunken railroad like the http://www.acta.org/ Alemeda Corridor thru the city? Then again the "National Route" would be better - Pittsburgh-Columbus-Dayton-St. Louis as rebuild
Deggesty Now if CREATE could soon create a more direct route in and out for the City of New Orleans...
last I heard , a few years ago the price tag was around $20M.
This project makes no economic sense.
First, the widened locks at the Panama Canal allow ships from China to go directly to east coast ports, negating the need for transcontinental shipping from west coast ports by railroads. Second, rail freight is contracting, driven by decreased coal demand. There is so much pressure against coal usage--economic, political, environmental--that coal shipments are likely to decrease further over the years.
The result? Less traffic through Chicago, which means fewer bottleneck problems, which might explain the lack of interest by the Class 1s.
1. Why do the Class I’s need a third party to create this bypass? With the exception of the CN and the KCS, the others can accomplish this on their own over a 10 year period without breaking a sweat, especially if they leave off the ends and concentrate on the core 55 miles. This would run from the BNSF transcon to the CSX/Amtrak old Monon Chicago – Indy line. Run it at break even and only charge what it costs to operate.
2. The word is that about 25% of the manifest traffic goes through Chicago and it takes about 30 hours to make that happen. To make the bypass work properly, enough cars would need to be assembled outside the bypass to make a train of sufficient length. This could take days, thus eliminating the time advantage that is being boasted about.
3. A promise has been made to allow access for spurs at any location along the line. This could create the same problems that are currently plaguing the Class I’s, clogging up the main line with local traffic and slowing the movements of through traffic.
4. Finally, while bypassing all towns along the route is a great sales gesture, it will be very difficult to promote industrial development along the route without access to public utilities, such as sewer and water, which are typically provided via municipalities.
sps There are a couple of things to consider regarding this proposal. 1. Why do the Class I’s need a third party to create this bypass? With the exception of the CN and the KCS, the others can accomplish this on their own over a 10 year period without breaking a sweat, especially if they leave off the ends and concentrate on the core 55 miles. This would run from the BNSF transcon to the CSX/Amtrak old Monon Chicago – Indy line. Run it at break even and only charge what it costs to operate. 2. The word is that about 25% of the manifest traffic goes through Chicago and it takes about 30 hours to make that happen. To make the bypass work properly, enough cars would need to be assembled outside the bypass to make a train of sufficient length. This could take days, thus eliminating the time advantage that is being boasted about. 3. A promise has been made to allow access for spurs at any location along the line. This could create the same problems that are currently plaguing the Class I’s, clogging up the main line with local traffic and slowing the movements of through traffic. 4. Finally, while bypassing all towns along the route is a great sales gesture, it will be very difficult to promote industrial development along the route without access to public utilities, such as sewer and water, which are typically provided via municipalities.
Details, details...Who cares about them?
If it is built I hope they aquire a wide enough ROW for future expansions.
I don't know how deep the lake is next to the shoreline but at 4 Billion dollars or more I have an idea: run the line right next to the lake.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
Boyd If it is built I hope they aquire a wide enough ROW for future expansions. I don't know how deep the lake is next to the shoreline but at 4 Billion dollars or more I have an idea: run the line right next to the lake.
That would be illegal in Illinois. The lakefront is largely public (some private areas on North Shore) and has been protected from additions for years. Even changes are difficult.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Looks like the project is on life support.
http://www.progressiverailroading.com/federal_legislation_regulation/news/OEA-suspends-environmental-review-of-Great-Lakes-freightrail-line--50400?email=drtrack@comcast.net&utm_medium=email&utm_source=prdailynews&utm_campaign=prdailynews12/15/2016
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