Oil Trains & Lag Screws

[Euclid]

http://koin.com/2016/06/07/bolt-could-be-at-fault-for-oil-train-derailment/

 

“Officials say a bolt that fastens the rail to the railroad ties may have been at fault. But, they say a final determination of the cause hasn’t been made.”

 

 

[wanswheel]

Euclid

http://kuow.org/post/industry-experts-question-railroad-explanation-mosier-derailment

Thanks for the link Euclid. Dig that '49 Caddie!

http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kuow/files/styles/x_large/public/201503/2014.49.010-054-0111.jpg

[BaltACD]

Euclid

Here are a couple of experts who agree with me in finding the U.P. explanation of the wreck cause to be puzzling.  That is the cause blamed on a rail fastener.

http://kuow.org/post/industry-experts-question-railroad-explanation-mosier-derailment

But more puzzling to me is this from the link:

“The 96-car Union Pacific train was carrying Bakken crude oil to a refinery in Tacoma, Wash., when it had an “undesired emergency application” of its brakes. Sixteen tanker cars derailed in Mosier, resulting in a fire and an estimated 42,000 gallons of spilled oil.”

 

So this is another reference to the “braking issue” that was mentioned in other links.  Once again the reference fails to close the loop with a clarification of whether the derailment occurred immediately upon the occurrence of the “undesired emergency application.”

Even if the two events were nearly simultaneous, it leaves the UDE as either a possible cause or a possible effect of the derailment.  It depends on whether the UDE preceded the onset of the derailment or followed it.  This may be impossible to establish.

However, if the UDE preceded the derailment it would be the 600-pound gorilla of probable cause of the derailment.  If it was not the cause of the derailment, then it would be a profound coincidence to have a UDE and unrelated derailment to occur at the same moment. 

So, until the details of this UDE are resolved, I have to wonder why all the focus on the possible fastener problem. 

Now this is just my opinion, but it sounds to me like the fastener problem has been cooked up by U.P. as a red herring to take the focus off of the 600-pound gorilla UDE.  That would explain with they trotted out the fastener problem so early that they were not even able to confirm it.

U.P.’s problem with the UDE is precisely that it is a braking issue, and one that is all but eliminated with ECP brakes.  When the new tank car rules were announced, the railroad industry staked their opposition to an ECP mandate to their claim that braking performance had almost nothing to do with oil train safety.

My carrier now has PTC operational on various sub divisions across the property, including two on my territory.  With all the radio communications that has to take place between track switches, CADS computer and engine PTC computer we are having multiple incidences of a switch not properly reporting it's position and thereby initiating at PTC brake application, which because of a 'kicker' in the train ends up being a UnDesired Emergency brake application.  The sub divisions on my territory that are now operating under PTC carry a high volume of chemical traffic and both subdivisions are Dark territory.

I would expect that if my carrier now has PTC operating on specific territories to test it, that the other Class 1's are also testing their PTC systems in specific locations.  Could this be a PTC CAUSED derailment?  Just a WAG with no basis in fact of how UP is operating this sub division?

 

[Euclid]

Here are a couple of experts who agree with me in finding the U.P. explanation of the wreck cause to be puzzling.  That is the cause blamed on a rail fastener.

http://kuow.org/post/industry-experts-question-railroad-explanation-mosier-derailment

But more puzzling to me is this from the link:

“The 96-car Union Pacific train was carrying Bakken crude oil to a refinery in Tacoma, Wash., when it had an “undesired emergency application” of its brakes. Sixteen tanker cars derailed in Mosier, resulting in a fire and an estimated 42,000 gallons of spilled oil.”

 

So this is another reference to the “braking issue” that was mentioned in other links.  Once again the reference fails to close the loop with a clarification of whether the derailment occurred immediately upon the occurrence of the “undesired emergency application.”

Even if the two events were nearly simultaneous, it leaves the UDE as either a possible cause or a possible effect of the derailment.  It depends on whether the UDE preceded the onset of the derailment or followed it.  This may be impossible to establish.

However, if the UDE preceded the derailment it would be the 600-pound gorilla of probable cause of the derailment.  If it was not the cause of the derailment, then it would be a profound coincidence to have a UDE and unrelated derailment to occur at the same moment. 

So, until the details of this UDE are resolved, I have to wonder why all the focus on the possible fastener problem. 

Now this is just my opinion, but it sounds to me like the fastener problem has been cooked up by U.P. as a red herring to take the focus off of the 600-pound gorilla UDE.  That would explain why they trotted out the fastener problem so early that they were not even able to confirm it.

U.P.’s problem with the UDE is precisely that it is a braking issue, and one that is all but eliminated with ECP brakes.  When the new tank car rules were announced, the railroad industry staked their opposition to an ECP mandate to their claim that braking performance had almost nothing to do with oil train safety. 

 

[dehusman]

Officials say a bolt that fastens the rail to the railroad ties may have been at fault. But, they say a final determination of the cause hasn’t been made.”

If 100 Acme model 342718 dash 2 bolts failed but they were all Acme model 342718 dash 2 bolts the statement made would still be true.  They did have a failure of a bolt.  The "a" could mean one single type instead of one single bolt.  

[BaltACD]

Euc - you catch more Red Herring than the crabbers on Deadliest Catch catch crab.

[wanswheel]

BaltACD

Could this be a PTC CAUSED derailment?

Excerpt from news article, Jun. 4

An auto-pilot system called Positive Train Control is currently being installed system wide, but it is not in Oregon yet, according to sources. Espinoza couldn’t say if positive train control would’ve prevented this derailment without yet knowing what caused it.

[Norm48327]

wanswheel

 

 

BaltACD

Could this be a PTC CAUSED derailment?

 

 

 

Excerpt from news article, Jun. 4

An auto-pilot system called Positive Train Control is currently being installed system wide, but it is not in Oregon yet, according to sources. Espinoza couldn’t say if positive train control would’ve prevented this derailment without yet knowing what caused it.

 

The way her story keeps changing, she should be a spokeswoman for a politician.

[Euclid]

BaltACD

Euc - you catch more Red Herring than the crabbers on Deadliest Catch catch crab.

Well a red herring is a tool to distract from something.  It is like throwing red meat to the junkyard dog in order to preoccupy him and distract him from his mission of keeping intruders out.

So when I call this track fastener problem a red herring, I mean it exactly that.  It is to distract the public away from the “Undesirable Emergency” brake application that apparently occurred at the same time as the derailment.

I don’t see how PTC could have prevented this wreck, but ECP brakes surely could have prevented it if the wreck was caused by that U.D.E. 

The real tip-off that the fastener news is a red herring is that they put it out there as speculation without giving any reason why they suspect it.  That is totally out of character coming from people who never want to tell us anything until they finish a year or two of investigation. 

 

[Overmod]

Euclid

So when I call this track fastener problem a red herring, I mean it exactly that. It is to distract the public away from the “Undesirable Emergency” brake application that apparently occurred at the same time as the derailment.

Oh, dear G-d, how can you come out and say that as if you knew "their" evil motivation?

Not to say it isn't possible, not to say the way it got into the press defied belief that a knowledgeable railroad source would propose it "as written", not to say we shouldn't wait for actual NTSB assessment of 'what happened' ... I assume that in advance of that you read the track inspection report I posted a link to, and you understand what it and its content implied? ... but why you feel it's appropriate to go straight for the pet conspiracy theory almost like a dog for a bone, and start up with accusations you couldn't possibly substantiate at this point, is ... I was going to say 'execrable' but that might be too strong in context.  Certainly it's disappointing: you can, and I think you should, do better in 'the human thing'.

 

[Euclid]

Overmod,

I think you are overreacting.  I am not part of any investigation or legal process that limits speculation or opinions.  Opinions are good.  I wish people developed more of them rather than follow like sheep.  And I wish people would ask spokespeople why a fastener issue is expected.  I wish they would ask about the UDE. 

So while they parcel out information one painful drip at a time, I will speculate.  Maybe that will speed things up. 

I don’t find the link you say you posted about the track inspection, so I don’t know that that information “implies,” as you say. What does it imply?

 

[Norm48327]

[Norm48327]

Overmod

 

 

Euclid

So when I call this track fastener problem a red herring, I mean it exactly that. It is to distract the public away from the “Undesirable Emergency” brake application that apparently occurred at the same time as the derailment.

 

 

Oh, dear G-d, how can you come out and say that as if you knew "their" evil motivation?

Not to say it isn't possible, not to say the way it got into the press defied belief that a knowledgeable railroad source would propose it "as written", not to say we shouldn't wait for actual NTSB assessment of 'what happened' ... I assume that in advance of that you read the track inspection report I posted a link to, and you understand what it and its content implied? ... but why you feel it's appropriate to go straight for the pet conspiracy theory almost like a dog for a bone, and start up with accusations you couldn't possibly substantiate at this point, is ... I was going to say 'execrable' but that might be too strong in context.  Certainly it's disappointing: you can, and I think you should, do better in 'the human thing'.

 

 

Cows may come and cows my go, but around here, the bull goes on forever.

[zugmann]

Euclid

So while they parcel out information one painful drip at a time, I will speculate. Maybe that will speed things up.

High opinion of yourself much?  Somehow I doubt the investigators care about what some nameless person on a half-dead forum thinks.

[Norm48327]

[Overmod]

Euclid

Opinions are good. I wish people developed more of them rather than follow like sheep.

Could not agree with you more.  What I have a complaint about is the precise way you attempt to promulgate and then defend some of them...

 

 

[quote ... And I wish people would ask spokespeople why a fastener issue is expected.  ...]

Here, too, I agree we need better information, because what has gotten to the media so far makes very little sense (and what little there is has a few people virtually going in circles). 

In a sense, the track report I provided (the .pdf link is here) may itself be a bit of a red herring, in that it shows the existence of known or tolerated defects but not necessarily of the kind that would contribute to this particular kind of derailment.

 

I wish they would ask about the UDE.

I think we can conclude that from some of the previous postings

The issue is not that we shouldn't wonder about the UDE, it's that you accuse the railroad of covering it up.  And that you have seized on this as if it were a smoking gun that explains the whole thing, before the NTSB has even finished a preliminary investigation on actual potential causes.

I thought Bruce's comment about 'that particular train' (or so I understood his post to say) making a very pronounced emergency stop the night before, almost as if it were avoiding something at or on a crossing, might be interesting, too -- for a bit later in the accident investigation, and not to throw at company representatives or spokesmen as prima facie evidence of pre-existing causation factors you think they're trying to hide along with the UDE 'evidence.  (Speculation about causes is one thing; speculation about cover-ups and mendacious behavior something else again)

Basically I would prefer to keep a discussion like this sticking with identifying a physical cause, and involved with insuring to the greatest extent possible we can develop ways to keep this kind of accident from recurring, rather than finding who's to 'blame' for the tragedy itself.

[tree68]

[beaulieu]

The Union Pacific line at Mosier, OR is equipped with US&S Type EL Coded Cab Signals, very similar to the PRR system used on the NEC before the installation ACSES II. With 4 frequencies used, giving four signal indications plus stop. The installation begins at the the West End of The Dalles, and runs to the interlocking at Troutdale near Portland. This is the same system as used on the Overland Route from Omaha to Ogden.

[mudchicken]

(getting amused by some of the instigators here .... folks on the track side of the fence want to hear some more on the "cause and effect"  before saying anything - UP's comment clearly came from the mind of an operating bubba. Bolts fastening rail to the tie? ) Darn Oregon Jackalopes!) chill, people!

MP 69 Portland Sub - Virtually flat & all curves P40 / F30 133# CWR on Timber Ties CTC ....

[Euclid]

[quote user="Overmod"]

 

Euclid

Opinions are good. I wish people developed more of them rather than follow like sheep.

 

 

Could not agree with you more.  What I have a complaint about is the precise way you attempt to promulgate and then defend some of them...

 

 

[quote ... And I wish people would ask spokespeople why a fastener issue is expected.  ...]

Here, too, I agree we need better information, because what has gotten to the media so far makes very little sense (and what little there is has a few people virtually going in circles). 

In a sense, the track report I provided (the .pdf link is here) may itself be a bit of a red herring, in that it shows the existence of known or tolerated defects but not necessarily of the kind that would contribute to this particular kind of derailment.

 

 

I wish they would ask about the UDE.

 

 

I think we can conclude that from some of the previous postings

The issue is not that we shouldn't wonder about the UDE, it's that you accuse the railroad of covering it up.  And that you have seized on this as if it were a smoking gun that explains the whole thing, before the NTSB has even finished a preliminary investigation on actual potential causes.

I thought Bruce's comment about 'that particular train' (or so I understood his post to say) making a very pronounced emergency stop the night before, almost as if it were avoiding something at or on a crossing, might be interesting, too -- for a bit later in the accident investigation, and not to throw at company representatives or spokesmen as prima facie evidence of pre-existing causation factors you think they're trying to hide along with the UDE 'evidence.  (Speculation about causes is one thing; speculation about cover-ups and mendacious behavior something else again)

Basically I would prefer to keep a discussion like this sticking with identifying a physical cause, and involved with insuring to the greatest extent possible we can develop ways to keep this kind of accident from recurring, rather than finding who's to 'blame' for the tragedy itself.[/quote]

*****************************************************

 

Overmod,

I read the reports on track inspection that you linked to.  I am not sure what to make of it.  I don’t see any issue at all that could relate to this oil train derailment. 

I don’t believe that what I have offered as my opinion rises to the level of accusing the company of cover-up, hiding evidence, or other forms of criminal behavior, as you mention.

In fairness, the UDE may be of no consequence, and even if it is, we will never know that.  Obviously air hoses parted in the derailment, so that would cause a UDE.  A UDE that results from a derailment due to parting air hoses cannot have caused the same derailment.

However a UDE that occurs by a cause other than a derailment could then cause a derailment.  And that derailment would then not produce a UDE because one had already been triggered by some other cause. 

But given that there is no way to know which event came first, I see no reason to report that a UDE occurred.  For any practical purpose, the information is irrelevant.  I suppose that a UDE occurred when the train piled up at Lac Megantic or any other oil train derailment of more than a few cars.

I suspect that someone told the media that the crew experienced an undesirable emergency application of the brakes when the derailment occurred, and the media included that while thinking that the UDE was an unexplained anomaly rather than being a natural consequence of most derailments.  This too would explain why the U.P. has not reported the UDE. 

I don’t know what to make of the report on one or more track fasteners being related to the cause of the wreck.  I read a report of a train that derailed a car which ran on the ground for a ways and then re-railed.  In the process, the derailed wheel cut out a line of spikes.  The damaged spikes then cause the derailment of a following train.       

 

[dehusman]

Euclid

But given that there is no way to know which event came first,

For an experienced derailment investigator,  that's not an accurate statement.  Derailments leave physical evidence, marks on the track, marks on the equipment, failed components, the physical position of the equipment, data recordings, observations by the crew and others.  Piecing those together, they determine a cause.

 

[Euclid]

Dave,

Is there a way to correlate the exact point of travel where the derailment began to the exact point of travel where the brakes went into "Emergency"?  If there is, I would expect every derailment investigation to make that determination just to clarify that the "Emergency" application was not the cause of the derailment as opposed to being the result of it, as is typical.

I would think that the exact time of the "Emergency" application would be recorded and available, but how do you correlate that time with the physical location of the train on the line?

 

 

[tree68]

The locomotive event recorder(s) will show at what point the brake pipe pressure went to zero.  The distance from the place the locomotives stopped back to the point where the brakes went into emergency will be fairly easy to determine.  

Other distances can then be easily extrapolated.

The crew's account will help determine if a "dynamiter" was a factor.

[Euclid]

tree68

The locomotive event recorder(s) will show at what point the brake pipe pressure went to zero.  

When you refer to the point where the brake pipe pressure went to zero, are you referring to a point in time or a point in physical location?

[wanswheel]

Overmod

not to say we shouldn't wait for actual NTSB assessment of 'what happened'

Excerpt from Oregon senators’ letter to chairman of NTSB, Jun. 9

https://www.wyden.senate.gov/download/?id=C62F2324-0366-4F30-ADF6-B98670FEF469&download=1

We were troubled to learn that after the recent crude-by-rail accident in Mosier, Oregon, the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) decided against sending an investigative team to the site.

[cx500]

Euclid

 

tree68

The locomotive event recorder(s) will show at what point the brake pipe pressure went to zero.  

 

 

When you refer to the point where the brake pipe pressure went to zero, are you referring to a point in time or a point in physical location?

 

The answer to your question is yes to both, one directly, the other easily calculated.  And the fact you even have to ask the question just illustrates the extent of your ignorance and the senselessness of much of your speculation.

The mass media is usually just as ignorant, and usually misinterprets much of what they are told by the time it gets reported, either through carelessness, attempted over-simplification, or sensationalism.   Using that as the sole source is for speculation is even more stupid.  The experienced railroaders on this forum have recognized that the report of "a failed track bolt" makes little sense but in the absence of real data don't go off on wild speculation.

Perhaps you should also consider the possibility it was a UFO landing and grabbing a tank car to refuel their craft, and the railroad and government are covering it up. 

[schlimm]

cx500

The experienced railroaders on this forum have recognized that the report of "a failed track bolt" makes little sense but in the absence of real data don't go off on wild speculation.

The UPRR does not employ "experienced railroaders" then, since they and the FRA report are the source for the failed track bolt theory?

[Euclid]

cx500

 

Euclid

 

tree68

The locomotive event recorder(s) will show at what point the brake pipe pressure went to zero.  

 

 

When you refer to the point where the brake pipe pressure went to zero, are you referring to a point in time or a point in physical location?

 

 

 

 

The answer to your question is yes to both, one directly, the other easily calculated.  And the fact you even have to ask the question just illustrates the extent of your ignorance and the senselessness of much of your speculation.

The mass media is usually just as ignorant, and usually misinterprets much of what they are told by the time it gets reported, either through carelessness, attempted over-simplification, or sensationalism.   Using that as the sole source is for speculation is even more stupid.  The experienced railroaders on this forum have recognized that the report of "a failed track bolt" makes little sense but in the absence of real data don't go off on wild speculation.

Perhaps you should also consider the possibility it was a UFO landing and grabbing a tank car to refuel their craft, and the railroad and government are covering it up. 

 

cx500,

Since you have decided to answer the question that I asked Larry, why don't you go ahead and just answer it?

All I am asking is this:  How does the event recorder know the train's location on the line? 

[schlimm]

Euclid

I don’t believe that what I have offered as my opinion rises to the level of accusing the company of cover-up, hiding evidence, or other forms of criminal behavior, as you mention.

Very close, however.  Making up a false explanation for an accident borders on criminality.  You said in an earlier post: "Now this is just my opinion, but it sounds to me like the fastener problem has been cooked up by U.P. as a red herring to take the focus off of the 600-pound gorilla UDE.  That would explain why they trotted out the fastener problem so early that they were not even able to confirm it."

 

[BaltACD]

wanswheel

Overmod

not to say we shouldn't wait for actual NTSB assessment of 'what happened'

Excerpt from Oregon senators’ letter to chairman of NTSB, Jun. 9

https://www.wyden.senate.gov/download/?id=C62F2324-0366-4F30-ADF6-B98670FEF469&download=1

We were troubled to learn that after the recent crude-by-rail accident in Mosier, Oregon, the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) decided against sending an investigative team to the site.

The trigger for NTSB involvement in investigations is normally death.  Numerous aircraft accidents happen - unless someone dies the NTSB doesn't get involved and the same applies to the other modes of transportation.