For every 1 coal power plant that the US closes the Asia opens 3 coal plants.

[Euclid]

CandOforprogress2

Now as for myself I belive in a greenhouse effect but we can do that without raising my electric juice bill 300%.

Now that I'd like to see.

[Murphy Siding]

CandOforprogress2

Some conspiracies are true- Heres is one about greenhouse gas Al Gore Partying with Buddist monks who happen to be also Chinese foriegn agents-FYI these are from mainline sources. So the fact that the US and China dont have climate control or greenhouse gases in there trade agreements is a direct effect of Gore and his heir the Democratic Party platform and Obama. Now as for myself I belive in a greenhouse effect but we can do that without raising my electric juice bill 300%. Railroads are part of that more on next post

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_United_States_campaign_finance_controversy

 

http://prospect.org/article/al-gore-and-temple-doom

 

http://archive.fortune.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2000/02/07/272816/index.htm

 

 

 

 

Is that the one where Al Gore wore the tinfoil hat?  Or am I confusing him with you?

[schlimm]

Lake

 

 

CandOforprogress2

Some conspiracies are true- Heres is one about greenhouse gas Al Gore Partying with Buddist monks who happen to be also Chinese foriegn agents-FYI these are from mainline sources.

 

 

Yeah, I agree, some one needs to spend less, or maybe no time on the, right wingnut, web sites.

 

Some folks have difficulties with reality testing, especially when under the influence.

[Lake]

CandOforprogress2

Some conspiracies are true- Heres is one about greenhouse gas Al Gore Partying with Buddist monks who happen to be also Chinese foriegn agents-FYI these are from mainline sources.

Yeah, I agree, some one needs to spend less, or maybe no time on the, right wingnut, web sites.

[CandOforprogress2]

Some conspiracies are true- Heres is one about greenhouse gas Al Gore Partying with Buddist monks who happen to be also Chinese foriegn agents-FYI these are from mainline sources. So the fact that the US and China dont have climate control or greenhouse gases in there trade agreements is a direct effect of Gore and his heir the Democratic Party platform and Obama. Now as for myself I belive in a greenhouse effect but we can do that without raising my electric juice bill 300%. Railroads are part of that more on next post

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_United_States_campaign_finance_controversy

http://prospect.org/article/al-gore-and-temple-doom

http://archive.fortune.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2000/02/07/272816/index.htm

 

 

[SD70M-2Dude]

BaltACD

CandOforprogress2

Why are we helping China who is now our sworn enemies. Look what they are doing in the Pacific Rim and aka there goal of Communisim is to destroy the West as we know it.

Guess that makes Wal-Mart a sworn enemy - with all they import form China.

+1.

zugmann

Someone needs to get off the wingnut websites for a bit.

+10.  Does this mean we are getting close to the part where Raymond gets kicked off the forum once again?

Firelock76

According to a poster on another thread, I think SD70 from Canada, the Chinese are buying a lot of Australian coal, don't know if it's cheaper but it's certainly closer.

A niece of mine was in Bejing several years ago and said it's true, you CAN cut the air there with a knife.  They don't care.

I've been offline for a few days so I missed this, and since the other thread seems to have been deleted I will repeat my point:  Worldwide coal markets are slow because of China's economic slowdown and an oversupply in the marketplace.  This is going on worldwide and is affecting other areas too, not just the U.S.  Australia and Indonesia have mines right next to the water's edge, compared to North America where we have long rail hauls and tougher terrain to mine in (Australia mines Appalacian-quality coal in PRB conditions).  And this is to say nothing of China and India's domestic production.  Good luck breathing over there for the next century. 

Domestic U.S. coal is a bit different, and its decline is far more complicated as other posters have alluded to.  Environmental laws are but one piece of the puzzle.  Dirt-cheap natural gas is a far bigger piece, and with the advent of fracking it ain't goin away anytime soon.

[zugmann]

CandOforprogress2

Why are we helping China who is now our sworn enemies. Look what they are doing in the Pacific Rim and aka there goal of Communisim is to destroy the West as we know it. They may still "bury us". The attitude of the Obama admintration is that the US has harmed everyone via racisim slavery and capitlism and not only ask for forgiveness but must make penence by agreeing to lop sided trade agreements and play the game with both hands tied behind our back.

Someone needs to get off the wingnut websites for a bit.

[BaltACD]

CandOforprogress2

Why are we helping China who is now our sworn enemies. Look what they are doing in the Pacific Rim and aka there goal of Communisim is to destroy the West as we know it.

Guess that makes Wal-Mart a sworn enemy - with all they import form China.

[Lake]

CandOforprogress2

Why are we helping China who is now our sworn enemies.

Well, it may be because your great big, capitalistic corporations, can make lots and lots of money in and from China.

 And what does Obama have to do with this?

It's all about the bottom line and really big bonuses for the top management.

[CandOforprogress2]

Murphy Siding

 

It's my understanding that the Powder River Basin coal came into popularity because it burned cleaner than other coal, such as that mined in eastern states.  Perhaps this PRB coal burns cleaner than what China might mine or purchase closer to home? Maybe, in the big picture, we are helping the Chinese pollute our air less than they had planned, and working on that trade imbalance thing?

 

 

Why are we helping China who is now our sworn enemies. Look what they are doing in the Pacific Rim and aka there goal of Communisim is to destroy the West as we know it. They may still "bury us". The attitude of the Obama admintration is that the US has harmed everyone via racisim slavery and capitlism and not only ask for forgiveness but must make penence by agreeing to lop sided trade agreements and play the game with both hands tied behind our back.

[blue streak 1]

Restrict coal exports ?  There have been wars fought over less volitile issues.  The US limitations on exports to Japan in the 1930s certainly did not help .                                             u

[Murphy Siding]

 

It's my understanding that the Powder River Basin coal came into popularity because it burned cleaner than other coal, such as that mined in eastern states.  Perhaps this PRB coal burns cleaner than what China might mine or purchase closer to home? Maybe, in the big picture, we are helping the Chinese pollute our air less than they had planned, and working on that trade imbalance thing?

 

[Norm48327]

Euclid

The Obama administration is seeking to curb the United States’ appetite for the basin’s coal, which scientists say must remain mostly in the ground to prevent a disastrous warming of the planet. Yet each year, nearly half a billion tons of this U.S.-owned fuel are hauled from the region’s vast strip mines and millions of tons are shipped overseas for other countries to burn. Government and industry reports predict a surge in exports of Powder River coal over the next decade, at a time when climate experts are warning of an urgent need to reduce coal burning to prevent global temperatures from soaring. Each shipment highlights what critics describe as a hypocrisy underlying U.S. climate policy: While boasting of pollution cuts at home, the United States is facilitating the sale of large quantities of government-owned coal abroad. “We’re a fossil-fuel-exporting super­power that goes around lecturing the rest of the world about cutting emissions,” said Paul Bledsoe, who was an adviser on climate change during the Clinton administration. “The United States is reducing its domestic coal use and then simply exporting some of those emissions abroad.”

Biased reporting? The WAPO would never do that.

[Euclid]

Here is what I am referring to.  I believe the end of coal in the U.S. will surely be followed by the end of exporting U.S. coal.  It’s only a matter of time:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/us-exports-its-greenhouse-gas-emissions--as-coal-profitable-coal/2015/10/08/05711c92-65fc-11e5-bdb6-6861f4521205_story.html

Quote from the link:

 

The Obama administration is seeking to curb the United States’ appetite for the basin’s coal, which scientists say must remain mostly in the ground to prevent a disastrous warming of the planet. Yet each year, nearly half a billion tons of this U.S.-owned fuel are hauled from the region’s vast strip mines and millions of tons are shipped overseas for other countries to burn. Government and industry reports predict a surge in exports of Powder River coal over the next decade, at a time when climate experts are warning of an urgent need to reduce coal burning to prevent global temperatures from soaring.

Each shipment highlights what critics describe as a hypocrisy underlying U.S. climate policy: While boasting of pollution cuts at home, the United States is facilitating the sale of large quantities of government-owned coal abroad.

“We’re a fossil-fuel-exporting super­power that goes around lecturing the rest of the world about cutting emissions,” said Paul Bledsoe, who was an adviser on climate change during the Clinton administration. “The United States is reducing its domestic coal use and then simply exporting some of those emissions abroad.”

 

[Euclid]

[quote user="Buslist"]

[quote user="Euclid"

I do not believe that coal is declining in the U.S. because of the natural free market forces.  It has nothing to do with the old buggy whip analogy.  So my point is that a country that had decided to ban coal can also decide to ban its export.  The exact same motivation would apply to either scenario.  That is why I said I am surprised that it is legal to export coal from the U.S.    

[/quote] 

We could ban export of coal to China on environmental concerns, but that would raise international trade issues relative to one country trying to influence the internal policy of another.

 

But more to the point if we think our policies of banning coal exports will change their direction it ignores the fact that others, primarily Australia and South Africa are there to fill the gap. And somewhere along the line we need to trade off the right of a teenage kid to go snowboarding vs the right of an Indian or Chinese peasant to have light and electricity in their dwEllington.[/quote]

 

Buslist,

I don’t follow your point about the rights to burn coal.  But, in any case, nobody has the right to purchase coal from the U.S. 

However, it might be argued that any country has the right to their portion of the atmosphere not being affected by the coal burning of another country.  I am sure that the green/sustainable/renewable movement looks at it that way.  That is why the fundamentals of carbon trading reward countries that use less coal; and grant that reward at the expense of those who use more coal. 

Therefore, the greens must feel like hypocrites to see the U.S. offsetting the burden of domestic coal regulations by selling their coal to other countries.  It flies in the face of the whole point. 

 

[oltmannd]

Buslist

And somewhere along the line we need to trade off the right of a teenage kid to go snowboarding vs the right of an Indian or Chinese peasant to have light and electricity in their dwEllington.

I don't think these are mutually exclusive, in the long run.  Although, the snowboarding kid might have to pay a bit more in the short run.

[oltmannd]

For a longer view of coal, go here:

 

http://www.eia.gov/beta/MER/index.cfm?tbl=T06.01#/?f=M

 

look at coal, coal overview.

Current coal production is still greater than it was in the 1970s.  Exports are, and continue to be a drop in the bucket.

[Buslist]

[quote user="Euclid"

I do not believe that coal is declining in the U.S. because of the natural free market forces.  It has nothing to do with the old buggy whip analogy.  So my point is that a country that had decided to ban coal can also decide to ban its export.  The exact same motivation would apply to either scenario.  That is why I said I am surprised that it is legal to export coal from the U.S.    

[/quote] 

We could ban export of coal to China on environmental concerns, but that would raise international trade issues relative to one country trying to influence the internal policy of another.

 

But more to the point if we think our policies of banning coal exports will change their direction it ignores the fact that others, primarily Australia and South Africa are there to fill the gap. And somewhere along the line we need to trade off the right of a teenage kid to go snowboarding vs the right of an Indian or Chinese peasant to have light and electricity in their dwEllington.

[1019x]

A lot of the coal going through the east coast terminials is met grade coal for steel making.

[Norm48327]

@Euclid:

There are many reasons behind the decline of coal. Economic, envrionmental, political just to name a few. The true answer (more likely more than one answer) can be very complex and difficult to unravel.

[Lake]

Euclid

I do not believe that coal is declining in the U.S. because of the natural free market forces.

OK, sure, why not.

[Lake]

Gerald and Bruce, thanks for the information links.

Euclid, I get most of my sources from IBT, Reuters, BBC, Business Times, The Guardian, Business Insider, and others who keep up on these type of things. And FOX is not one of them.

[Euclid]

Everyone is free to believe whatever they want about the use of coal. There are plenty of references to China being firmly committed to the use of coal, and there are also references to China suddenly jumping on the renewable bandwagon.

Likewise, there are diametrically opposed beliefs about the U.S. using coal.  There are plenty of references to the U.S. effectively banning the use of coal by adding regulations that make the use of coal economically untenable.  There are also many references that say that coal has suddenly become economically unviable entirely through the free market system, and it has nothing to do with regulations. 

Rather than getting deep into the weeds about this, my only thought was this:

To the people who believe that the U.S. must stop burning coal because of its effect on the planet, how could you possibly think it is okay for the U.S. to sell our surplus of coal to another country so they can burn it?

I do not believe that coal is declining in the U.S. because of the natural free market forces.  It has nothing to do with the old buggy whip analogy.  So my point is that a country that had decided to ban coal can also decide to ban its export.  The exact same motivation would apply to either scenario.  That is why I said I am surprised that it is legal to export coal from the U.S.    

 

[Bruce Kelly]

To get a more broad-based and up-to-date picture:

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&tbm=nws&authuser=0&q=China+coal&oq=China+coal&gs_l=news-cc.3..43j0l9j43i53.2266.4386.0.4706.10.10.0.0.0.0.118.1040.2j8.10.0...0.0...1ac.1.El8sYKYnjPs

 

 

 

[GERALD L MCFARLANE JR]

Euclid

 

 

Lake

Since more and more utilities are deciding that coal is not cost effective any more, it has to be sold to some one.

Even China has cut back on new coal fired plants. More natural gas and renewables are being mandated even there.

The coal industry has had years to work on ways to make burning coal cleaner, but since politicians let them get by, why do it. Now that power utilities are deciding on their own to cut out coal, the industry is starting to do some thing.

Those that still have buggy whip stock should jump on the coal wagon, because it will always be the big one. Just like those autos will never replace horses. Right?

 

 

 

 

Can you provide some source information detailing how China is cutting back on new coal fired power plants and mandating natural gas and renewables? 

Instead of quoting specific articles and just providing a long list of sources that state China is cutting back on coal usage(will not go into whether they're mandating renewables and natural gas or not), just follow this Google search on China cutting back on coal usage:  https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=china%20finding%20ways%20to%20cut%20back%20on%20coal

[Euclid]

Buslist

 

Euclid

 

I am surprised that it is legal to export coal from the U.S.  

 

 

 

 

what did you think those coal export terminals on the east coast were for?

 

Exporting coal.  Why do you ask?

[Buslist]

Euclid

 

I am surprised that it is legal to export coal from the U.S.  

 

what did you think those coal export terminals on the east coast were for?

[Euclid]

Lake

Since more and more utilities are deciding that coal is not cost effective any more, it has to be sold to some one.

Even China has cut back on new coal fired plants. More natural gas and renewables are being mandated even there.

The coal industry has had years to work on ways to make burning coal cleaner, but since politicians let them get by, why do it. Now that power utilities are deciding on their own to cut out coal, the industry is starting to do some thing.

Those that still have buggy whip stock should jump on the coal wagon, because it will always be the big one. Just like those autos will never replace horses. Right?

 

Can you provide some source information detailing how China is cutting back on new coal fired power plants and mandating natural gas and renewables?

[Lake]

Since more and more utilities are deciding that coal is not cost effective any more, it has to be sold to some one.

Even China has cut back on new coal fired plants. More natural gas and renewables are being mandated even there.

The coal industry has had years to work on ways to make burning coal cleaner, but since politicians let them get by, why do it. Now that power utilities are deciding on their own to cut out coal, the industry is starting to do some thing.

Those that still have buggy whip stock should jump on the coal wagon, because it will always be the big one. Just like those autos will never replace horses. Right?