erikemGetting back to the original topic of the thread - one of the latest foodie fads is coal fired pizza...
Shhh Eric. You're making me hungry.
Norm
It may be a foodie fad now, but the oldest operating pizzaria in New York City (ca. 1905, or thereabouts) uses a coal-fired pizza oven and has done so from the beginning. I don't know if they use anthracite or bituminous. AND the burning coal isn't under the oven, it's IN it.
Haven't tried it myself (although I'd LOVE to) but I'm told the best pizza does come from a coal-fired oven.
daveklepperBy all means put the whole poem together!
It is together, and available online for you.
My favorite is the celebration of the Lackawanna Cutoff and the Pennsylvania viaducts ...
Each cut and fill
'Cross dale and hill
Has made "The Shortest"
Shorter still.
Like arrow's flight
I now delight
To speed o'er
Road of Anthracite.
Like aeroplanes
My favorite trains
O'ertop the lofty mountain chains.
There's cool delight
At such a height
Upon the Road of Anthracite.
(And yes, coal-fired pizza had better be anthracite -- or densified charcoal -- if you fired with bituminous you'd have that delicious soft-coal-smoke taste in your food as well as the smell on your hair...
Thank you RME, that looks like a fun read.
On your other point, with all it's other great smells what's so wrong with a pizzaria smelling like a steam excursion?
Firelock76On your other point, with all it's other great smells what's so wrong with a pizzaria smelling like a steam excursion?
Don't misunderstand me; I love the smell of soft coal smoke on a steam excursion. It's just not real useful as, say, the next 'special' flavor of Doritos or a limited-edition ice cream taste from Baskin-Robbins or Breyers. Nor is the delicate scent of residual coal tar what we mean when discussing attractively 'smoked' salmon, or barbecue, or even cheese.
The reason the coal oven works so well is that it can produce 800 to 900 degree steady heat in still air without a ruinous fuel burn or hot spots or careful frequent adjustments to firing control. You don't get the quality OR the speed OR the throughput without that degree (pun probably intended) of effectiveness.
I still think that place in Trenton that has made upside-down toppings since 1912 deserves more mention than they get.
Oh, I haven't misunderstood, I'm just having a little fun with you!
What you said makes perfect sense, as a matter of fact since anthracite coal was THE preferred fuel for various urban uses back when that NYC pizzaria was built it makes sense it would have been the fuel used from that day to this.
A few years back "The Food Network" did a pizza show that showed how the coal oven was fired and it was very interesting to see.
Real pizzerias in Italy use wood-fired ovens, of course.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimmReal pizzerias in Italy use wood-fired ovens, of course.
Implying that American pizzerias are less "real" than ones in Italy?
The original reasons for the coal firing weren't found in Italy -- the cheaper fuel that involved less maintenance, the hotter temperature allowing quicker throughput to satisfy higher peak demand, etc. It might be interesting to see how Italian ovens would have developed had there been either the cheap fuel or the high demand and relatively higher 'affordability' in American cities.
Personally (as a native New Yorker) I have never particularly cared for the overcooked/burned kind of coal-oven pie. I've never really bought into the thin-crust style, either (of course, it was a red-letter day when I discovered the stuffed-crust pizza, the thing that made those leftover 'handles' on slices edible, so I am admittedly a pizza heathen in critical respects ab initio.) On the other hand, the moment you realize you can have a whole pie ready, to order, in about two minutes of ordering... doubt you'll get that with most wood-fired ovens, regardless of how they 'perfume' the crust...
In my opinion, American pizza is about as "Italian" as Mandarin restaurant cuisine is "Chinese". Some people may claim this makes the American style, including the American innovations in oven tech, less 'authentic' somehow. But it's more that it's different, and I think legitimately evolutionarily different.
RME, if you're a native New Yorker and you've never found a pizza you've really liked there it's very understandable.
The BEST pizza's over the George Washington Bridge in New Jersey! I'm an old Jerseyman so take my word for it!
And continuing the oven discussion, "Early American Life" magazine had a fine article on wood fired ovens about an issue or two ago, specifically the "beehive" types of colonial times which are very, very similar to the coal fired pizza ovens we've been talking about. Needless to say, those 18th Century ovens were wood fired but aside from the fuel used the firing procedures are exactly the same.
Firelock76RME, if you're a native New Yorker and you've never found a pizza you've really liked there it's very understandable. The BEST pizza's over the George Washington Bridge in New Jersey! I'm an old Jerseyman so take my word for it!
I'm almost as old a Jerseyman as you, having lived from age 2 1/2 in first Tenafly and then Englewood before 'going south' in the '90s (in the days of Mayor Dinky, before Giuliani turned things around). But I regret coming to pizza as a specialty comparatively late -- I wasn't a Hirams/Callahans man either, even though I had the Thunderbird convertible and the Black Russians pack rolled up in the T-shirt sleeve to capitalize on the experience... (Cheese steaks and scrapple in Philadelphia were more my style then)
About the most exotic I got was the occasional Ray's vs. Lombardi's pie; I knew there were places in the "Hoboken" area that were good but never actually took the trouble to go there ... where were the best places in NORTH Jersey, as opposed to places Phoebe might have gotten more than her hair red while laying over waiting for the train?
Firelock76 I've spoiled my clothes too, but that was on account of too many boilermakers. Cider, hard or otherwise, had nothing to do with it.
I've spoiled my clothes too, but that was on account of too many boilermakers. Cider, hard or otherwise, had nothing to do with it.
Best pizza I've ever had was in a former bowling alley in Old Forge, NY. The crust was to die for. Unfortunately, the place is now closed.
I'm sure the folks from Chicago will tell you that their pizza is best.
On the other hand, there's always "tomato pie" from the old Italian enclaves in Utica, NY...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68The crust was to die for.
Why is it that when people say that certain food is "to die for", that's taken to be a good thing?
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Paul of Covington Why is it that when people say that certain food is "to die for", that's taken to be a good thing?
If you're gonna go, you might as well go happy!
I did some quick on-line research. It appears the phrase appeared in the "late 20th century," with the most succinct definition being "extremely good." Odds are, we can "blame" one person, who used it in a publication, or on the air, and it took off from there. Viral, if you will...
It sounds too much like Heaven?
anthracite coal is used to make high quility pure carbon black which is used in the electronic and chemical industry. Carbon Black is still used in batteries as well.
jeffhergert I see one or two cars in one of our manifests quite often. IIRC, it's going to a steel mini-mill. Jeff
I see one or two cars in one of our manifests quite often. IIRC, it's going to a steel mini-mill.
Jeff
And not only UP gets some of this action....A couple of times recently. have been watching BNSF merchandise/mixed trains around here ...Noticed a couple of coal loads in Reading & Northeastern hopper cars heading west...ave no idea of what kind of coal was onboard, or where they were going, but they were pretty unusual cars and coal loads for Spring in the middle of Kansas, westbound on the Transcon.
CSSHEGEWISCH Firelock76 I've spoiled my clothes too, but that was on account of too many boilermakers. Cider, hard or otherwise, had nothing to do with it. Did you spill the beer after the shot??
The spoiling came from what happened when the aforementioned boilermakers had their unanticipated effect on me. I'll spare everyone the details.
Besides, the Irishman in me will tell you it's a mortal sin to spill good liquor!
RME, the best pizza places we used to go to in the Paramus area (where I'm from) were Pizza-Town on Route 17, now long gone, King Pizza on East Ridgewood Avenue, still there and still excellent, and once in a while Pietro's Restaurant in Ramsey, which is also still in business. Haven't been to Pietro's in about 15 years but last time there it was great.
I went to college in Glassboro NJ and was introduced to Philly cheesesteaks at that time. Wow! I was addicted immediately, but never developed a taste for scrapple. Oh, and that's cheeesesteaks "wit-out" onions, I don't care much for those vile vegetables.
Should you wend your way back up North Hiram's Roadstand is still there waiting for you, "Dogs, Burgers, and Brew, Since 1932!" as it says on the T-shirts. And Callahans is back from the dead, now in Norwood and operated by the grandson of the original owner.
Check out yelp.com for Hiram's Roadstand for some reviews and good stories about the place. Not everyone's a fan, which is to be expected, but most love the place.
One great place to go for a burger platter is the State Line Lookout Inn, it's in Alpine NJ right off the Palisades Interstate Parkway. The burger platters are outstanding, and if you dine al fresco you can't beat the view, 500 feet up from the Hudson on the Palisades. Strictly a 8 to 5 place though, it closes with the park depending on the season. The inn itself is interesting, a WPA stone and timber building going back to 1937.
I'd proudly take Phoebe to any of those places, but I wouldn't guarantee her dress would stay "white and snowy bright" if she really got into it!
RME schlimm Real pizzerias in Italy use wood-fired ovens, of course. Implying that American pizzerias are less "real" than ones in Italy? The original reasons for the coal firing weren't found in Italy -- the cheaper fuel that involved less maintenance, the hotter temperature allowing quicker throughput to satisfy higher peak demand, etc. It might be interesting to see how Italian ovens would have developed had there been either the cheap fuel or the high demand and relatively higher 'affordability' in American cities. Personally (as a native New Yorker) I have never particularly cared for the overcooked/burned kind of coal-oven pie. I've never really bought into the thin-crust style, either (of course, it was a red-letter day when I discovered the stuffed-crust pizza, the thing that made those leftover 'handles' on slices edible, so I am admittedly a pizza heathen in critical respects ab initio.) On the other hand, the moment you realize you can have a whole pie ready, to order, in about two minutes of ordering... doubt you'll get that with most wood-fired ovens, regardless of how they 'perfume' the crust... In my opinion, American pizza is about as "Italian" as Mandarin restaurant cuisine is "Chinese". Some people may claim this makes the American style, including the American innovations in oven tech, less 'authentic' somehow. But it's more that it's different, and I think legitimately evolutionarily different.
schlimm Real pizzerias in Italy use wood-fired ovens, of course.
I guess you would have to have watched preparation and eaten various styles of pizza in Italy to have a sense of what I mentioned. Wood-fired is less hot (650-900F) than coal-fired (800-1100F) but with more flame so that they cook more rapidly, usually 60-90 seconds.
RME[snipped - PDN] . . . I'd also agree that activated carbon is a likely use (this stuff is interesting in having something like 500 square meters of relatively reactive surface area for each gram of mass!) . . .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichloroethylene and then
https://cfpub.epa.gov/ncer_abstracts/index.cfm/fuseaction/display.files/fileID/12678
- Paul North.
Paul_D_North_Jr RME [snipped - PDN] . . . I'd also agree that activated carbon is a likely use (this stuff is interesting in having something like 500 square meters of relatively reactive surface area for each gram of mass!) . . . I'm told a good portion of the anthracite from the Shamokin, PA area (ex-PRR and RDG lines) is used for water purification in this form. I'm no chemist, but I believe it's especially effective at 'absorbing' (?) various 'organic' contaminants. That's not as in healthy from the farm, but instead being based on or involving carbon, such as Trichloroethylene. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichloroethylene and then https://cfpub.epa.gov/ncer_abstracts/index.cfm/fuseaction/display.files/fileID/12678 - Paul North.
RME [snipped - PDN] . . . I'd also agree that activated carbon is a likely use (this stuff is interesting in having something like 500 square meters of relatively reactive surface area for each gram of mass!) . . .
I'm told a good portion of the anthracite from the Shamokin, PA area (ex-PRR and RDG lines) is used for water purification in this form. I'm no chemist, but I believe it's especially effective at 'absorbing' (?) various 'organic' contaminants. That's not as in healthy from the farm, but instead being based on or involving carbon, such as Trichloroethylene. See:
https://www.bing.com/search?q=adsorption&form=EDGENT&qs=LS&cvid=dc405ba061804529931963f991bd5e35&pq=adsorption
I was introduced to the term back in antiquity when I slogging away at chemistry in college.
So, a given mass of activated charcoal can accomplish far more than the same mass of some other substance.
Johnny
[quote user="schlimm"]Wood-fired is less hot (650-900F) than coal-fired (800-1100F) but with more flame so that they cook more rapidly, usually 60-90 seconds.[/quote]
I hadn't thought about the lambent flame emission, but you're right (in part for the same reason anthracite firing requires different firebox design - less visible glowing carbon emission from the combustion plume means lower uptake on radiant exposed surfaces.)
The first true camelback engine was "built" in Italy. The P&R sent a Wooten firebox engine to demonstrate in Italy (since they have anthracite coal) and the P&R engineer had to move the cab from on top of the firebox to ahead of the firebox on the running boards in order to lower the height to fit through the Italian tunnels.
A convergence of Italy, anthracite and railroads.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusmanThe first true camelback engine was "built" in Italy. The P&R sent a Wootten [note sp.] firebox engine to demonstrate in Italy (since they have anthracite coal) and the P&R engineer had to move the cab from on top of the firebox to ahead of the firebox on the running boards in order to lower the height to fit through the Italian tunnels. A convergence of Italy, anthracite and railroads.
If this is locomotive 412, Paul Walker says France, not Italy, as the place where the cab was moved.
If you have a reference that says Italy, I'd like to see it.
Progress in academic research does produce changes, for example when better source materials or scholarship are developed over time. We're seeing that now with PRR T1 research.
Thanks, Mike --now can you provide me with the last page or pages? Bell's report cuts off right in the middle of an interesting sentence...
I have edited my post a bit to reflect the point I intended to establish there: not that the engine had not been sent to Italy (it was, with the results described) but that the Mother Hubbard "innovation" does not appear to have been derived there. I was hoping Bell's report would touch on this, but fascinatingly I don't see where he ever mentions the cab arrangement or the division of the crew at all, despite going into numerous and interesting discussions about other details of the locomotives, including variable front ends, better high-speed riding qualities, and the ability to burn both lignites and hard coals effectively! (This despite publishing illustrations that clearly show the separate cabs.)
I have always been tempted to note that a camelback cab is the quintessence of something designed by engineers who cared little if anything for the men who would run a locomotive. It seems like a good idea -- in the center of the engine for good riding, glazed in for protection from the weather; shorter view to the front, a shorter and more direct throttle arrangement. And then you realize your whole left side is bellied up against a boiler filled with scalding explosive power, the rods are oscillating right where they'll cut you in half if they break, and you have a hard time indeed communicating with the person firing your engine -- no help calling signals, or coordinating injector use with firing, or seeing what is to the left of the engine as it progresses down the track. Speaking tubes might help a bit for coordinating essential actions, but couldn't have been a sure answer.
Cautionary tale for those who want to innovate on the railroads...
While we are on the subject of Phoebe, the Road of Anthracite, and Camelbacks, how about something that has all three and some more besides.
The Lackawanna was so clean that even the tramps could be elegant...
[Note that this is the pre-jingle era, of 'this is the maiden all in lawn' fame...]
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