RMEOut of curiosity, what's the procedure (if any) to override or resolve a conflict like this, where two rules or instructions clash?
I'm gonna guess that the ultimate rule of taking the safer course of action is going to prevail. Which is what jeffhergert appears to have done.
ChuckAllen, TX
Well, look who's back!
Hello there Overmod!
Well, if you're going to post that, I had a girlfriend from suburban Philadelphia who related this (it came up in conjunction with Winsor McCay, and I thought it was an amusing reference to two contemporary tropes)
Clemson University history professor Roger Grant
http://www.independentmail.com/news/clemson-professor-made-a-career-of-railroads-2d557af3-fae3-743f-e053-0100007f4299-371217481.html
read this poem on C-SPAN, from an ad for Illinois Traction Co.
http://www.c-span.org/video/?405378-1/interurban-electric-rail
AFTER A RIDE OF A DAY AND NIGHT,
OVER THE ROAD OF ANTHRACITE,
PHOEBE SNOW AND HER FIVE SISTERS
RUBBED AND SCRUBBED TILL THEY HAD BLISTERS.
STEAM ROADS ARE OUT OF DATE, SAID THEY,
WE’LL HAVE TO TRAVEL SOME OTHER WAY.
TOMORROW TO SPRINGFIELD WE WILL GO,
DRESSED ALL IN WHITE FROM HEAD TO TOE.
WHEN PHOEBE SAID, I MUST CONFESS
I’VE HEARD OF THIS ROAD, ITS SERVICE FINE,
IT‘S HARD TO BEAT AN ELECTRIC LINE.
THE CAR WAS CLEAN, THE WOODWORK BRIGHT,
THE TIPLESS PORTER TREATED THEM RIGHT.
NO DUST, NO DIRT, ALL OF WHICH SHOWS,
THERE WASN’T A SPECK ON THE SISTERS' CLOTHES.
THEY ARRIVED IN SPRINGFIELD WHITE AND CLEAN,
NOT FEELING TIRED, DIRTY AND MEAN.
SAID PHOEBE SNOW, RETIRING THAT NIGHT,
THIS BEATS THE ROAD OF ANTHRACITE.
During World War One it was the YMCA that was on the Doughboys and Marines "....-list." Long story, I'll tell it if anyone's interested.
Sam, I think it was even in the forties that the Red Cross was accused of selling doughnuts.
Johnny
Firelock76 Do a You Tube search "Voice of Florence Nightengale" if you want to hear what she sounded like. Believe it or not her voice was recorded in the 1880's on an Edison wax cylinder. Not like hearing the voice of a ghost, but close to it. On and on that red cross "controversy"... I enlarged the stove company catalog just to see what kind of a cross they used. It's a "cross patee'," similar to the Iron Cross we all know so well. The Red Cross organization uses what's referred to as a "Greek cross," four arms of equal length and straight sided. The Germans used to call it a "Balkankreutz." Henri Dunant, the founder of the International Red Cross took the flag of his native Switzerland and flipped the colors to get his institutional symbol Thought everyone would enjoy this bit of otherwise useless knowledge.
Do a You Tube search "Voice of Florence Nightengale" if you want to hear what she sounded like. Believe it or not her voice was recorded in the 1880's on an Edison wax cylinder. Not like hearing the voice of a ghost, but close to it.
On and on that red cross "controversy"...
I enlarged the stove company catalog just to see what kind of a cross they used. It's a "cross patee'," similar to the Iron Cross we all know so well. The Red Cross organization uses what's referred to as a "Greek cross," four arms of equal length and straight sided. The Germans used to call it a "Balkankreutz." Henri Dunant, the founder of the International Red Cross took the flag of his native Switzerland and flipped the colors to get his institutional symbol
Thought everyone would enjoy this bit of otherwise useless knowledge.
THANKS, FIRELOCK 76 and Wanswheel !
Interesting stuff ! BUT the American Red Cross is not on my Christmas Card list....Since '67 and '68 in RVN...
MidlandMike Deggesty The International Committe of the Red Cross was founded in 1863; who is the infringer of a copyright? Remember that Clara Barton became famous during the Crimean War (10/1853-3/1856). Was that Florence Nightengale?
Deggesty The International Committe of the Red Cross was founded in 1863; who is the infringer of a copyright? Remember that Clara Barton became famous during the Crimean War (10/1853-3/1856).
The International Committe of the Red Cross was founded in 1863; who is the infringer of a copyright? Remember that Clara Barton became famous during the Crimean War (10/1853-3/1856).
Was that Florence Nightengale?
Deggesty International Committe of the Red Cross
Aha! I looked at the American Red Cross. Shoulda looked deeper.
Regardless - I'm betting it was coincidence.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
No, Clara Barton was an American who served in Union hospitals during the War for Southern Independence.
The company that made Red Cross stoves, etc, was founded ca 1867 (and went out of business in 1930). The American Red Cross didn't come into being until 1881.
Nowadays, Clara would have been sued for copyright infringement...
Well thanks, Firelock! Yes, pathologically incredible. Google dredges up all this obscure stuff. I expected Red Cross ranges would be about the real Red Cross setting up field kitchens or something.
Wanswheel you're incredible! How do you come up with this stuff?
Most of the time the fireman was back behind the firebox in a separate partial-shelter semi-cab using his shovel.
Speaking of coaled pizza, who knew Clara Barton had a sideline.
While the "Mother Hubbard" camelback may not have been built until the 1870s, Winan's "Camel" dates to the 1840s, complete with all of the undesireable features of later camelbacks, along with several of its own. Reading had several, so the idea wasn't unknown there. The Camel was an early attempt to burn bituminous coal, before the firebrick arch made it practical in ordinary fireboxes.
Excerpt from Cabs by George Hart, Railroad Magazine, Oct. 1943 (Thanks Doug!)
Changes in boiler design frequently brought about new cab forms. In 1877, for example, John E. Wootten, general manager of the Philadelphia & Reading, amazed visitors who thronged the railroad displays of an international exposition in Paris, with a curious little ten-wheeler having an extraordinarily large firebox. In accordance with the current belief that a large grate was an asset in anthracite burners, this engine, the 408 [sic], employed a firebox seven feet six and three-quarters inches wide by eight and one-half feet long. The conventional type of cab was perched high over this abnormality. People scoffed at the engine’s ungainly appearance, so Wootten arranged a test run on the Northern Railway of France to show them his engine could perform well despite her dubious profile. The height of the cab atop that big firebox caused the 408 to exceed clearances on the road. Nothing daunted, the American railroad official had the shelter, controls and all, moved forward to the middle of the boiler, while running board was provided on either side of the barrel, reaching back to the floor-plate on the tender. Thus was born the Mother Hubbard or Camelback locomotive. With this type of power the engineer occupies the traditional right-hand side of the cab while the fireman sits on the left. The boiler between them prevents the two from getting very chummy. Besides, the fireman only sits in his half of the cab when he isn’t busy wielding the scoop. There’s a reason for this cab provision. The I.C.C., which some years ago outlawed Camelbacks but has given certain roads permission to extend their use until shortages of motive power could or can be met, has also stipulated that firemen must have shelter from the elements.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
While we are on the subject of Phoebe, the Road of Anthracite, and Camelbacks, how about something that has all three and some more besides.
The Lackawanna was so clean that even the tramps could be elegant...
[Note that this is the pre-jingle era, of 'this is the maiden all in lawn' fame...]
Thanks, Mike --now can you provide me with the last page or pages? Bell's report cuts off right in the middle of an interesting sentence...
I have edited my post a bit to reflect the point I intended to establish there: not that the engine had not been sent to Italy (it was, with the results described) but that the Mother Hubbard "innovation" does not appear to have been derived there. I was hoping Bell's report would touch on this, but fascinatingly I don't see where he ever mentions the cab arrangement or the division of the crew at all, despite going into numerous and interesting discussions about other details of the locomotives, including variable front ends, better high-speed riding qualities, and the ability to burn both lignites and hard coals effectively! (This despite publishing illustrations that clearly show the separate cabs.)
I have always been tempted to note that a camelback cab is the quintessence of something designed by engineers who cared little if anything for the men who would run a locomotive. It seems like a good idea -- in the center of the engine for good riding, glazed in for protection from the weather; shorter view to the front, a shorter and more direct throttle arrangement. And then you realize your whole left side is bellied up against a boiler filled with scalding explosive power, the rods are oscillating right where they'll cut you in half if they break, and you have a hard time indeed communicating with the person firing your engine -- no help calling signals, or coordinating injector use with firing, or seeing what is to the left of the engine as it progresses down the track. Speaking tubes might help a bit for coordinating essential actions, but couldn't have been a sure answer.
Cautionary tale for those who want to innovate on the railroads...
dehusmanThe first true camelback engine was "built" in Italy. The P&R sent a Wootten [note sp.] firebox engine to demonstrate in Italy (since they have anthracite coal) and the P&R engineer had to move the cab from on top of the firebox to ahead of the firebox on the running boards in order to lower the height to fit through the Italian tunnels. A convergence of Italy, anthracite and railroads.
A convergence of Italy, anthracite and railroads.
If this is locomotive 412, Paul Walker says France, not Italy, as the place where the cab was moved.
If you have a reference that says Italy, I'd like to see it.
Progress in academic research does produce changes, for example when better source materials or scholarship are developed over time. We're seeing that now with PRR T1 research.
The first true camelback engine was "built" in Italy. The P&R sent a Wooten firebox engine to demonstrate in Italy (since they have anthracite coal) and the P&R engineer had to move the cab from on top of the firebox to ahead of the firebox on the running boards in order to lower the height to fit through the Italian tunnels.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
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