I am wondering what push back will occur in response to grade crossings being blocked for long times by the new trend to longer trains. Mny cities already have laws about how long a RR can obstuct a crossing (which requires trains to be split if stopped). If a two mile long train has to go through a town and because of a crossover or a connecting track, its speed is twenty mph, a crossing can be blocked for over seven minutes or more. Or if it has to wait for an opposing train for a meet, are there enough locations where a two mile long train can fit between crossings? As in the case of the CSX mess in Richmond, VA.
I don't know to what extent train lengths are expected to grow. But I do recall an experiment by U.P. a few years ago when they ran an exceptionally long train as an experiment. The intent was to study the feasibility for routine practice, and they publically announced that. As I recall, there was plenty of official objection to the plan.
The June TRAINS, whose cover story concerns the trend to long trains, says there was only one of those super jobs on the UP, it caused such an operations snarl. To this day, UP has a lot of work to do on sidings and yards before it can super-size, the story says.
Finding the stretch room for longer sidings is a problem in itself, even up here in roomy North Dakota (for BNSF).
Watch what happens the first time a monster train blocks some emergency vehicles, police, fire, or EMT, especially in this lawsuit-crazed society where the ambulance-chasers are always circling like sharks.
There's probably a time and a place for monster trains, but they better be careful about the time and place. Out on the Great Plains where there's miles and miles of nuthin', probably OK. In urban, suburban, or built-up areas, not such a good idea.
It is hard to say how much the public reaction will be based on real delays versus the perception that longer trains will cause unacceptable delays. How many cars are they talking about with this new trend to longer trains? I can’t see that 100 more cars is going to cause a crossing time legal violation. It is usually a case of stopping on a crossing that brings the unacceptable delays. Some railroads routinely ran relatively long trains in the past. The CGW, Milwaukee, and Omaha each ran lots of trains that were 200 cars plus. The longest I heard of on the Milwaukee was 270 cars.
I live in a city of 175,000 people. I've been caught in several traffic snarls in the last year that held me up more than 7 minutes. I'm going to ask the city to not allow other cars on the streets between 5:00 and 6:00pm.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
The U.P. experimented with this in 2010. I recall this news article. It drew lots of attention with all sorts of different concerns and perspectives.
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jan/13/local/la-me-monster-train13-2010jan13
From the linked article:
An apparently unprecedented, super freight train extending about 3 1/2 miles rolled through Southern California over the weekend, catching state regulators off guard and prompting concerns about potential safety risks and traffic delays, The Times has learned.
Union Pacific said that the train was used to test equipment and find ways to improve operating efficiency, but that the company had no plans to run such trains regularly.
Some officials worry that the train may be a harbinger of things to come in a crowded region where passenger and freight trains already share tracks that cross hundreds of intersections bustling with cars and trucks.
"I will be asking a lot more questions," said Democratic U.S. Rep. Grace Napolitano, whose San Gabriel Valley district includes part of the train route.
"If they're testing to increase the size of trains in L.A., I have a problem with that," she said.
The state Public Utilities Commission raced a team to Imperial County on Saturday to monitor the train as it headed toward the Inland Empire. The train originally left Texas on Friday night and reached its ultimate destination, a large intermodal facility near the Port of Long Beach, on Sunday.
"We were quite concerned about it, which was why we scrambled our people to be out there Saturday to essentially find out what was going on," said Richard W. Clark, who oversees rail safety at the PUC.
There are no state or federal limits on the length of trains or requirements to notify agencies about unusually long trains, officials said. Union Pacific said it did alert local federal regulators, who observed the train's movement.
The 18,000-foot-long train was two to three times the length of a typical freight train, Clark said, and the largest he knew to operate in the state.
It linked 295 rail cars, carrying more than 600 cargo containers, mostly double-stacked, said Tom Lange, a Union Pacific spokesman. Nine locomotives were spread along the train and additional personnel were on board to monitor equipment.
The train, the longest ever assembled by Union Pacific, was permitted to travel up to 65 mph as it crossed the Los Angeles Basin, Lange said. He said the train needed three to five minutes to clear a grade crossing.
The test was part of an effort to explore ways to "better serve our customers," Lange said. Such trains reduce the chances of derailment, he said, because locomotive power is distributed along the train, easing stress on couplers and other equipment.
Firelock76Watch what happens the first time a monster train blocks some emergency vehicles, police, fire, or EMT, especially in this lawsuit-crazed society where the ambulance-chasers are always circling like sharks.
That happened just a few days ago in New Boston, MI. It wasn't a monster train, just one working TDSI. House is a total loss and the town mayor is screaming mad.
Norm
UP's current System Special Instructions allow an intermodal train to be up to 18000 feet long. To run that size they are required to be DP with the DP consists positioned 6000 feet apart. Even so, outside of the test train I've not heard of them running another that big. I have seen a couple 12 or 13000 foot stack trains.
Conventional manifest are allowed 10000 feet. DP manifests can be 15000 feet long. The midtrain DP consist must be within 8500 feet of the lead consist and equipped with an EOT repeater.
Contrary to what the story said, UP does operate monster trains east of North Platte to Proviso. We even have three symbols that are currently limited to 40mph because they often are 9500+ feet. Trouble is the restriction applies on days when they are more normal sized. Lately, two of those east bound manifests that regularly run big have been reducing before crossing the Mississippi. Even so, last night MNPPR was 10000 ft leaving Clinton. It was 12000 ft going into there.
They have even ran a 10000 ft manifest up the single track Short Line (or now more commonly known as the Spine Line) where no siding could hold it.
Jeff
Norm48327just one working TDSI
Please explain to this ignorant one what TDSI is.
Total Distribution Services Inc; it's part of CSX.
dakotafredThe June TRAINS, whose cover story concerns the trend to long trains, says there was only one of those super jobs on the UP, it caused such an operations snarl. To this day, UP has a lot of work to do on sidings and yards before it can super-size, the story says. Finding the stretch room for longer sidings is a problem in itself, even up here in roomy North Dakota (for BNSF).
Might even bring back the saw-by meet or pass.
*Enough sidings close together could function as double / 2MT, with the end turnouts similar to universal crossovers.
- Paul North.
Paul_D_North_Jr Might even bring back the saw-by meet or pass. - Paul North.
How ironic, mentioning meeting trains by sawing them through on the anniversary of one time that didn't work out so well.
Only one person killed, but they did write a song about it.
Thanks for the reminder Jeff.
RIP Casey. A childhood hero of mine, and nothing I've read about him in the past 50-plus years has caused me to change my opinion.
Good memory, Jeff !
For those who want to know, here's the link to a pretty good explanation of a (single) saw-by - 1 train too long, a double saw-by - both trains too long - commonly written about, and a reverse saw-by (first time I've ever seen that term and explanation):
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,1257921
Norm48327 Firelock76 Watch what happens the first time a monster train blocks some emergency vehicles, police, fire, or EMT, especially in this lawsuit-crazed society where the ambulance-chasers are always circling like sharks. That happened just a few days ago in New Boston, MI. It wasn't a monster train, just one working TDSI. House is a total loss and the town mayor is screaming mad.
Firelock76 Watch what happens the first time a monster train blocks some emergency vehicles, police, fire, or EMT, especially in this lawsuit-crazed society where the ambulance-chasers are always circling like sharks.
The train had nothing to do with the slow response time, and the mayor should investigate before getting "screaming mad".
http://www.wxyz.com/news/fire-chief-stopped-train-didnt-play-role-in-firefighters-response-to-new-boston-house-fire
"The chief said the reason it took so long to respond is because they have one person on duty all the time, and he was on the other end of the township doing inspections when the fire started."
An "expensive model collector"
Electroliner 1935 I am wondering what push back will occur in response to grade crossings being blocked for long times by the new trend to longer trains. Mny cities already have laws about how long a RR can obstuct a crossing (which requires trains to be split if stopped). If a two mile long train has to go through a town and because of a crossover or a connecting track, its speed is twenty mph, a crossing can be blocked for over seven minutes or more. Or if it has to wait for an opposing train for a meet, are there enough locations where a two mile long train can fit between crossings? As in the case of the CSX mess in Richmond, VA.
Back to the county & town fathers raising a ruckus: How many of them have suspect planners and traffic engineering bubbas that are a bigger threat to traffic flow than a train. Here in Colorado, "Home Rule" local government creates a whole new level of stupid. (like trying to run a main track through one quadrant of a traffic circle) ...
Huron Township fire stations one and two might have had an issue. Station three didn't have to cross the tracks, by the looks of it.
HTFD is a "combination" fire department - one paid FF (who was away from the station at the time, per the chief), the rest are "paid on call" - functionally volunteers who respond from home or work. Given the time of day, an extended (and limited) response would not be surprising.
Flat Rock FD (ladder truck, per story) had a clear shot, but they are also mostly paid on call.
The house was lightweight construction. After fourteen minutes, they were lucky it was even standing. "Toothpicks and cardboard" don't take long to burn...
The rail line is the CSX Saginaw Sub, running north from Toledo through Plymouth and on to Saginaw.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
n012944 Norm48327 Firelock76 Watch what happens the first time a monster train blocks some emergency vehicles, police, fire, or EMT, especially in this lawsuit-crazed society where the ambulance-chasers are always circling like sharks. The train had nothing to do with the slow response time, and the mayor should investigate before getting "screaming mad". http://www.wxyz.com/news/fire-chief-stopped-train-didnt-play-role-in-firefighters-response-to-new-boston-house-fire "The chief said the reason it took so long to respond is because they have one person on duty all the time, and he was on the other end of the township doing inspections when the fire started."
Norm48327 Firelock76 Watch what happens the first time a monster train blocks some emergency vehicles, police, fire, or EMT, especially in this lawsuit-crazed society where the ambulance-chasers are always circling like sharks.
Referencing the highlighted Thread segment[by n012944]
Mudchicken had stated[in part] "...Back to the county & town fathers raising a ruckus: How many of them have suspect planners and traffic engineering bubbas that are a bigger threat to traffic flow than a train. Here in Colorado, "Home Rule" local government creates a whole new level of stupid. (like trying to run a main track through one quadrant of a traffic circle) ..."
The 'Battle' between small town politicians and their Firefighters is as old time in small [money straqpped] communities. Particularly, if they operate with minimum 'paid' staffs. Some communities use Police as back up firefighters, and others use the paid on duty firemen with 'other' duties... When there is a fire call, and delays are incurred, the finger points starts....
Long trains and delays will be a whole new wrinkle in that 'dance' of not enough personnel allocated for the duties to be performend.
Saw a few hours ago a southbound auto-rack train (some cars full, some empty) going I estimate at about 40 M.P.H. uphill approaching the north slope of Cajon Pass (CA) on UP’s Palmdale Cutoff. It was unusually long, possibly 10,000 feet. It had three big units on the head-end, and one on the DPU end. The people stopped at one grade crossing didn’t seem to adversely react. After pondering what was seen, it has to be wondered how such a long train made it up the Tehachapi Mountains without mid-train helpers. Anybody have any ideas?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Towns of any size had better have fire stations on both sides of the tracks. Period.
dakotafredTowns of any size had better have fire stations on both sides of the tracks. Period.
Rantoul, IL parked a truck or two on the "other side of the tracks" temporarily when ICG rebuilt the overpass that otherwise allowed unfettered access across the tracks. That was in the early 1970's.
That particular situation was made worse because trains had to slow for the shoofly trestle that was built around the bridge site while it was being reconstructed.
AFAIK, they're back to having all the trucks in one station... Barring an incident involving the bridge itself, there wouldn't be a problem, and if necessary, there's always mutual aid.
Milford, MI has two railroad overpasses and other roads that will allow them to get around normal train-blocking-crossing issues. For them, a bigger access issue is the 120,000 people they get in for an annual festival that closes down most of the main drag for about five days. A fire in a downtown building would be a nightmare.
dakotafred Towns of any size had better have fire stations on both sides of the tracks. Period.
Most do. In your opinion, do the railroads have any responsibilities to the communities?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
So, going back to the point of the original post: What are the details of this supposed trend to longer trains? While trains have trended longer over the years, is there some reason to believe that they will just keep getting longer and longer? Is there some plan afoot to suddenly increase the lengths to some new common practice?
That outcome was implied by the 2010 test of the U.P. train, but I have not heard of any decisions to make that a common practice. Nevertheless, the mere public mention of the test and the implication of it becoming common practice was enough to raise a ruckus among the regulating community.
Comments and posts here over time, as well as the occasional news item, seem to show a trend to longer trains. One consistent problem holding the practice back is the lack of sidings (and yards) that will handle those trains.
I would suppose that one could blame technology for this. Wheel slip prevention and remote control of locomotives have both matured, allowing practices that would have been unheard of in the past, except in the occasional publicity stunt.
It would have taken six first generation Diesels to match the HP of two modern locos, and one could probably argue that advanced traction technology makes that ratio even greater. Similarly, mid- and rear train locomotives would have been helpers, not remote control, requiring additional crews.
If some folks had their way, that two mile plus train would be run by one person...
In the April 2016 issue of Progressive Railroading in the MOW budget review section, it says that CN is working towards getting all passing sidings to have 12,000 feet of clear track. As the leader in driving down operating ratios it seems that they might be on the leading edge of the trend.
There was definitely a trend toward loner trains that was brought on by dieselization and its capability for M.U. locomotive operation. I see distributed power as being a second milestone offering the same advances in train length offered by M.U. capability.
But regardless of the physical ability to increase train length, I get the impression that not all railroad management agrees that longer trains are better as part of a business model. The benefit is that you can move more tonnage with less labor cost. The downside is that longer trains tend to produce larger delays when they have problems, in addition to requiring longer sidings and other track changes. Perhaps the longer trains also produce longer running times in general.
kgbw49 In the April 2016 issue of Progressive Railroading in the MOW budget review section, it says that CN is working towards getting all passing sidings to have 12,000 feet of clear track. As the leader in driving down operating ratios it seems that they might be on the leading edge of the trend.
Once upon a time 2.5 miles of 2 tracks was considered double track - how times change.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
One trend I think I've noticed is that during a capacity increasing project, a siding may be relocated completely. Originally a town may have grown around a (shorter) siding which also acted as a team track, not a good situation today.
In some rural areas longer sidings are almost impossible to build due to existing grade crossings, see the BNSF 'funnel' between Spokane, WA and Sandpoint, ID. Only 2MT CTC is likely to keep longer trains moving and not blocking important crossings.
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
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