And on another note: "...So, a major Space Shuttle design featureof what is arguably the world's most advanced transportation system was determined over two thousand years ago by the width of a horse's ass.
{and a tip of the hat to Steve, and his sister!}
Ave Caesar! Roma aeterna est!
And as long as I'm at it...
Senatus Populus Que Romanus!
Firelock76And as long as I'm at it... Senatus Populus Que Romanus!
If you're going to be at it, do it as the Romans would. "Populusque" is one word: the additive suffix (technically it's an enclitic particle, but that sounds vaguely non-family-friendly) meaning 'and' in the sense of 'thoroughly together with'.
Why not try for INRI, a phrase from perhaps the greatest historical Roman supposed horse's ass of all? ...And it's even the right time of year!
Don't take EVERYTHING I say here so seriously!
When I'm serious, believe me, you'll know it.
As far as the other horse's patootie, let me quote the fictional Pontius Pilate from "Ben Hur"...
"Where there is greatness, either great government or great feeling, error also is great."
Fiction, but it makes sense.
When I visited Rome in 1974, I was amused to note that the tramcars were lettered "SPQR".
However, the horse width story of gauge selection is generally regarded as an urban myth.
M636C
Why are the rails 56 1/2 inches apart?
Probably because George Stephenson chose that gauge for the Stockton and Darlington back in 1830. Stephenson went on to manufacture locomotives to 'Standard' gauge for the British Isles, the Continent and 'The Colonies' (US and Canada.)
Why? Because Stephenson had worked at a colliery with tracks gauged 56 inches. He freed up the gauge by 1/2 inch since the Stockton and Darlington would be running longer wheelbase rolling stock. (Brunel derided Stephenson's 'Standard' gauge as, "Mine cart gauge," and built his own railroad to 7 foot 1/4 inch gauge.)
So, why was that colliery using that gauge? GOOD question.
Chuck
tomikawaTTSo, why was that colliery using that gauge? GOOD question.
Yeah. Five even feet, with the flanges on the outside of the plateways.
When you shift the flanges to the inside of the wheels, with clearance, and measure over those to get gauge, it's not as surprising that you get an odd fraction.
The two-horse-chariot is a fun meme, but it shouldn't be thought of as actual industrial history.
All that latin talk ust-jay ire-tays ee-may out-hay.
Ja, genau!
RME tomikawaTT So, why was that colliery using that gauge? GOOD question. When you shift the flanges to the inside of the wheels, with clearance, and measure over those to get gauge, it's not as surprising that you get an odd fraction. The two-horse-chariot is a fun meme, but it shouldn't be thought of as actual industrial history.
tomikawaTT So, why was that colliery using that gauge? GOOD question.
Most anything else with some sort of spacing is measured "Center to Center" (studs in a wall are usually "16-inch on center").
Wheels originally were like a pully with a groove around the middle of the tread, (or flanges on both sides) to fit on the logs used as rails. That "track" was "60 inches on center".
When it was understood that the outside flanges were a major cause of derailments if the wheels are rigid to one axle, they were removed and then the only measurement of any meaning was the "gauge" (or inside of rail to inside of rail). Thus the dimention was 4' 8.5".
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Semper VaporoWheels originally were like a pulley with a groove around the middle of the tread, (or flanges on both sides) to fit on the logs used as rails. That "track" was "60 inches on center".
No, originally wheels were ... well, flat wagon wheels, like any other road-vehicle wheels, and the flanges were on the flat 'plateways' that were laid to provide a smooth and level surface just under the (relatively thin) treads of those wheels.
Whether it would make sense to measure the 'gauge' of a plateway anywhere except between the external 'flange' faces -- which, after all, is the control dimension of effective 'gauge' in that application -- would be up to whoever was installing or managing a system at a particular colliery or wherever, and I do not have any hard information on specifics. (I think there is at least one paper in the Transactions of the Newcomen Society that takes this subject up, though.)
54light15All that latin talk ust-jay ire-tays ee-may out-hay.
Opstay owingshay usyay utway ayay igpay ouyay areyay. (use W's if so inclined...)
Insultedhay Iay amhay. Inhay Odayay Ihay otewray. (now if I could only do it with a Scottish accent, I'd be all set.)
A post by Trevor Hodge, classical scholar and rail enthusiast
http://www.grijalvo.com/A_Trevor_Hodge/Roman_roads_gauge.htm
--David
The original post is a myth and has zero to do with railway gauge. It ignores the development of railways in this and other countries where railways were first built in multiple gauge sizes and some even had wooden vs iron rails, etc. I believe standard guage was settled on for the purpose of interchanging rail cars and cargo and the gauge that was selected was the most common size in use at the time although on this last point I am not sure how the standard gauge was selected. Certainly had nothing to do with the Romans or horses for that matter.
CMStPnPThe original post is a myth and has zero to do with railway gauge.
Yeah - but it's fun...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
"Good enough for the Romans" may have been a more pervasive philosphy 200 years ago than you might suspect.
Back in those days if you went to college or a university, and remember only the elites went to college, you got an education that was heavy on classical studies, i.e. ancient Greece and especially ancient Rome, how brilliant and advanced they were and how worthy of emulation. You learned their histories and also their languages. I can't help but think this must have had some effect on decision making at the time, among other things like art and architecture. Ever see that ridiculous statue of George Washington in a Roman toga?
Hey, around the time of the Civil War someone thought it'd be cool to outfit artillerymen with a short sword that was almost a dead-ringer for a Roman gladius. BOTH the Union and Confederate armies!
Those cannon-cockers who got them didn't think they were so cool, they "lost" them as soon as they could get their hands on a Colt or Remington revolver!
As an aside, when General Lee became president of Washington College after the war he scrapped most of the classical curriculum and replaced it with practical subjects like engineering, mathematics, agriculture and the various sciences, things the students could use to rebuilt the war-ravaged South.
As to that statue of George Washington, I have seen it--buried in the depths of the Capitol: I saw it when it was possible to wander around inside the building all by oneself, without benefit of a guide. I also saw the bier that held President Lincoln's body (I understand that it is still used from time to time), and I rode both Senate subways. The only time anyone said anything to me was when I was told to sit down in the visitors' gallery in the House of Representatives.
Johnny
I haven't been to the Capitol in a long time, at least since the 70's, and I imagine the days of wandering through the building un-escorted are LONG gone.
I've seen that "what the hell..." statue of Washington myself, I think it's in the Smithsonian now, but still in a basement gallery.
Talk about changes, when I first saw the Liberty Bell in Philadelphia in the late 60's you could walk right up to it and touch it. No more, it's in it's own pavilion next to Independence Hall and roped off, don't even THINK of touching it now!
I even got to ring the Bell after a fashion. I gave the edge a slight rap with my knuckles with my ear close to it. "BONGGGGGG..." Had a nice tone to it, even with the crack.
Firelock76 I imagine the days of wandering through the building un-escorted are LONG gone.
I wandered around the capitol for a bit on a whirlwind trip to DC in early 1970 - all by myself. Climbed all 444(?) steps to the to the top of the Washington Monument (the elevator was being used for some sort of movie shoot), and zipped through all three halls of the Smithsonian on that visit, too.
To Firelock:I also had an opportunity to "ring" the Liberty Bell--and restrained myself lest someone wring my neck for touching it.
To Carl: I thought no one was now allowed to walk up to the top of the Washington Monument--I rode the elevator up and walked down in 1969 .
Deggesty, I didn't think anyone would mind, as I said you could walk right up to it (it was in the foyer of Independence Hall at the time, but I'm sure you know that) and just about everyone was touching it.
Besides, before I rapped it I made sure no-one was looking!
It WAS a thrill, let me tell you!
By the way, here's something everyone can try if you get the chance. If you ever visit a Civil War or Revolutionary War site and there's any bronze artillery pieces on outdoor display, take a stick or something hard plastic like a pen and rap one of those cannons on the muzzle. It'll ring like a bell too! Back in those days that was one way the inspectors would check for the soundness of the casting.
Only works on bronze guns though.
https://books.google.com/books?id=DYgFAAAAQAAJ&pg=RA1-PA97&dq=%22George+washington%22+%22horatio+greenough%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiVqObWhczMAhWDpR4KHecYBTM4WhDoAQgoMAI#v=onepage&q&f=false
The statue of Washington currently being discussed was commissioned by Congress, although the style was left up to the sculptor. When the statue was unveiled, the esteemed Members Of Congress sought to have it blown up, until the parliamentarian ruled that such a practice was not permitted.
CMStPnP The original post is a myth and has zero to do with railway gauge. It ignores the development of railways in this and other countries where railways were first built in multiple gauge sizes and some even had wooden vs iron rails, etc. I believe standard guage was settled on for the purpose of interchanging rail cars and cargo and the gauge that was selected was the most common size in use at the time although on this last point I am not sure how the standard gauge was selected. Certainly had nothing to do with the Romans or horses for that matter.
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