Standard Cabs vs Widecabs

[adrianspeeder]

I like the LEGO look.....

Yeah right.

Alco had it right with the PAs for pass.,Century series for freight, and RS-3 for yards.

But alas, we all must remember function before form

Adrianspeeder

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrnut282

Antonio,
Aren't you bored with the safety cab yet? I mean, SD60I, GP60M, SD70M, SD70MAC, SD80, SD90, SD70ACe, C40-8W, C40-9W, ....they all look alike blasting down the rail. I only get excited when it's not a safety cab.

RRnut,

I think I understand your view, but look where I'm coming from. I grew up in late 60s, 70s and 80s. All I saw: SPARTAN CABS, everywhere! This is why I grew really attached to the SDP40s, which resembled the FP45s. The cab style to me was "sleek" and connoted "speed". So today's EMD safety cabs very much resemble those old Cowls. So that's why I like them so much. I do think that they look sharp.

The "latest" EMD safety cab to me, borders on "hideous". But then, I'll get used to it.

Spartan cabs will still be around for many years to come. There are still so many of them out there!

[mvlandsw]

QUOTE: Originally posted by adrianspeeder

I dont like the term widecab either, how about "fatheads"?

Adrianspeeder

I never liked "wide cab" either. The cab is no wider than normal. It's the nose that's wider.

[rrnut282]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Eric: I have no idea why EMD rounded the corners on the GP60 demonstrators 5, 6 and 7, other than to look cool -- a marketing point only. Actual effect on fuel economy would be so small that it would be impossible to discern in a statistically meaningful test with actual trains on actual railroads.

I do! The were to reduce aerodynamic drag. The overall savings EMD quoted were 1% reduction at 60 mph for a typical train. Nobody bit - extra cost to purchase and own (more costly wreck repair) exceeded potential savings.

IIRC 1 % is the same fuel savings UPS gets for placing all those tassles above the tires on their trucks and trailers. If UPS thinks 1% is worth it, why didn't the railroads? Does it take more than 1% for RR management to overcome inertia?

[rrnut282]

Antonio,
Aren't you bored with the safety cab yet? I mean, SD60I, GP60M, SD70M, SD70MAC, SD80, SD90, SD70ACe, C40-8W, C40-9W, ....they all look alike blasting down the rail. I only get excited when it's not a safety cab.

[AntonioFP45]

M636C, Oltmannd

Seems like you're both correct.

In redesigning the Spartan Cab with the rounded corners, EMD at that time should have just made that cab the new Standard Cab, absorb the cost of the rounded sheetmetal and marketed the units as having "Updated, More Aerodynamic cabs that would help in fuel efficiency".

Even with slightly higher repair costs (yes, I used to do sheetmetal.......would not have been that much higher) EMD should have been already thinking that General Electric was rapidly closing the gap on EMD's sales.

But of course today, we have the safety cab. I'm suprised that some of you prefer the old EMD Spartan Cab. I grew up watching the: GP35, GP38-2, GP40-2, SD40, SD40-2, SD45, SD50,.......good goobly......Same Old Spartan Cab year after year! When Santa Fe introduced the GP60 with that "FP45 styled Safety Cab" I said "Yesssssss!!". I thought it was slick!

Not too long afterwards there was GE's version showing up left and right. Now, that one took a while to grow on me. I liked the old U-boat's flatter "*** Tracy" face better.

[oltmannd]

I do! The were to reduce aerodynamic drag. The overall savings EMD quoted were 1% reduction at 60 mph for a typical train. Nobody bit - extra cost to purchase and own (more costly wreck repair) exceeded potential savings.

[M636C]

QUOTE:

Eric: I have no idea why EMD rounded the corners on the GP60 demonstrators 5, 6 and 7, other than to look cool -- a marketing point only. Actual effect on fuel economy would be so small that it would be impossible to discern in a statistically meaningful test with actual trains on actual railroads.

I think that this was the period when road prime movers began to get the same "streamlined" effect, and EMD just followed the current fashion. Unlike truck buyers, nobody bought it, literally! I don't think the style improved truck drag much either, given that most was due to the flat rear of the trailer! But the styling has stuck because truck buyers apparently care more about appearance. Maybe that explains the SD70ACe! I've just got the November "Model Railroader", and the drawings don't make it look any better.

Peter

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

Man you must have really been in heaven when indoor plumbing was introduced......

LOL, [(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D] That one caught me off guard Dharmon!

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

Man you must have really been in heaven when indoor plumbing was introduced......

He must have stepped in it frequently.

[dharmon]

Man you must have really been in heaven when indoor plumbing was introduced......

[Anonymous]

Widecabs schmidecabs ............. stink pot widened crap on 2 rails. Who runs them? Now cab forward was some achievement. Those were the days.

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Eric: I have no idea why EMD rounded the corners on the GP60 demonstrators 5, 6 and 7, other than to look cool -- a marketing point only. Actual effect on fuel economy would be so small that it would be impossible to discern in a statistically meaningful test with actual trains on actual railroads.

Like I said, the cab front did little for the aerodynamics. I was guessing why they made the cab fronts different. Looking back, it was absurd to think that the engineers at EMD would be so incompentant that they would think this would make more than a negligable difference. I more reasonable guess would be yours or that an industrial designer thought it would make the locomotive look faster.

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Thanks my friend!

For a while there I was actually thinking that "Spartan" might have referred to the modified standard cabs that had the "rounded" corners. There were 2 or 4 EMD demonstrators that had this styling in the early 90s. Were they GP59s? TRAINS had the article. Some of you might remember it. I thought that the modified styling looked pretty neat, but the railroads didn't go for it.

Anyone know what became of these units as they were brand new then?

Cheers!

Antonio,

There were six units, three GP59 and three GP60 built with the modified cab (which wasn't used on the SD60 demonstrators built at the same time - maybe SDs weren't considered "fast" enough).

EMD 5,6 and 7 were GP60s and they may have stayed with EMD. EMD 8,9 and 10 were GP59s and became Norfolk Southern 4606 to 4608. These, with the other NS GP59s, were used on the Triple Crown Roadrailers in the 1990s, I'm told (The one time I saw it it had a GP50).

The vee-front cab reminded me of Alcos!

Peter

My guess is the cab front style is the result of the intended use of the locomotive. I am guessing EMD marketed the GP59/GP60 for running fast, light trains, while the SD60 was marketed more for lugging at slow speeds. Thus they probably tried to make the GP more aerodynamic. I have a feeling that cab front did little for this.

[adrianspeeder]

I dont like the term widecab either, how about "fatheads"?

Adrianspeeder

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Antonio: The CN cab more spacious? You must have been in different ones. Everyone I've ridden in is cramped and moving around in it is like navigating through a maze, much worse than a standard EMD cab. The F45/FP45 cabs, on the other hand, are so big it seems like you could have a square dance in there, complete with fiddler and audience. The DDA40X cab, on the other hand, was average in size, about the same as a standard EMD cab. It wasn't laid out the same inside as an F45 or FP45.

I do wish we could quit calling these wide cabs. They're the same width. Safety cab is more appropriate.

O.K Mark.

Points well taken. But isn't the Canadian cab more cramped because of the extra seats and conductor's desk?

You're right. While I've never been inside an actual FP45, I've been in quite a few SDP40fs which used modified FP45 bodies. I noticed that they were quite comfortable inside, especially compared to standard or "Spartan" Cabs.

You struck my curiosity though as the big DD's cab was from the FP45 cowl production. I went to www.railpictures.net and carefully looked at the photos of the UP unit.

It sure does seem that the DDA40X's "cowl cab" is a tad shorter length wise; front to back, when you compare it to the FP45. Does make the cab look more cramped!

Thanks Mark, I always enjoy reading your posts! [:)][:D][8D][;)]

High Greens!

[Sterling1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Thanks my friend!

For a while there I was actually thinking that "Spartan" might have referred to the modified standard cabs that had the "rounded" corners. There were 2 or 4 EMD demonstrators that had this styling in the early 90s. Were they GP59s? TRAINS had the article. Some of you might remember it. I thought that the modified styling looked pretty neat, but the railroads didn't go for it.

Anyone know what became of these units as they were brand new then?

Cheers!

Antonio,

There were six units, three GP59 and three GP60 built with the modified cab (which wasn't used on the SD60 demonstrators built at the same time - maybe SDs weren't considered "fast" enough).

EMD 5,6 and 7 were GP60s and they may have stayed with EMD. EMD 8,9 and 10 were GP59s and became Norfolk Southern 4606 to 4608. These, with the other NS GP59s, were used on the Triple Crown Roadrailers in the 1990s, I'm told (The one time I saw it it had a GP50).

The vee-front cab reminded me of Alcos!

Peter

That's exactly what I said when I saw the cab front, an Alco front made by EMD!!!

[Sterling1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dwil89

On another webgroup, discussing Norfolk Southern's preference for standard cab units, The NS SD70's were discussed. NS bought 56 of them back in 1993-94 and Conrail built another 24 of them in 1998 to NS specs. An interesting thought came to mind....If Standard Cabs were still economical to purchase, NS would likely have bought more. It would be interesting to have seen NS's latest orders for SD70M's with flared radiators combined with a Standard Cab....Aside from no dynamic brake blisters, it really would have been reminiscent of an SD45! An SD70ACe or SD70M-2 with it's 90MAC looking radiator design would have been something to see with a Standard Cab on it! Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

That web group has the topic name Electric, Diesel and Steam Locomotives. It's genral folder for detail related info and other little quirks of locomotives . . .

[ShaunCN]

well if you railfan CN long enough you get used to all the widecabs, almost all CN road units have had them, except recent units such as SD70I's, SD75I's and CN's later dash9's came with the GE widecab, but the first 23 of CN's dash9's had the 4 window widecab.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by drailed1999

QUOTE: Originally posted by ShaunCN

dose anybody know who built the first wide cab? It was CN!!! these cabs had 4 windows and a larger nose with the door opening on the nose, now all these new "widecabs are just a copy of the originall CN widecab with only two windows. see my pic below a SD40-2W with the CN widecab.

Are you sure ?? The EMD DD40AX was built for the UP in 1969 and the CN SD40-2W wasn't built until 1975.

Peter M636C. Thanks for the heads up. I'm going search www.railpictures.net and hopefully those units should be there.

Drailed, ShaunCN.

RE: The CN cab and the DDA40X. This gets interesting here. The Canadian Cab was a "Wide Cab" and more spacious than the standard cab.

The cab on the DDA40X was not officially classified as a "Wide Cab". The cab came from the streamlined F45 / FP45 "Cowl" units ( The Big Jacks) introduced in 1968. A few years later, the streamlined F40C and SDP40f also came with these cabs.

Since the Cowl cab was part of production catalog models, it was a simple matter for EMD to adapt it to a hood unit. That cab made the giant "DD" stand out and easily recognizable. While there is a resemblence, these were not "Safety Cabs" .

[dwil89]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

As far as standard cabs are concerned, when the first Dash-8's came out with their standard cabs, I once opined to a friend that CR's B40-8's looked like they should have a pantograph on the roof.

I will have to say that my favorite GE standard cabs are the C32-8's and C39-8's with their low cab roof lines in relation to the Carbody behind....I believe they were nicknamed Camels by some... Conrail's C32-8's were later painted in Ballast Express Gray. I know NS got rid of their share of Conrail C32's...don't recall if CSX got any of those, and if they still have them. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[M636C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Thanks my friend!

For a while there I was actually thinking that "Spartan" might have referred to the modified standard cabs that had the "rounded" corners. There were 2 or 4 EMD demonstrators that had this styling in the early 90s. Were they GP59s? TRAINS had the article. Some of you might remember it. I thought that the modified styling looked pretty neat, but the railroads didn't go for it.

Anyone know what became of these units as they were brand new then?

Cheers!

Antonio,

There were six units, three GP59 and three GP60 built with the modified cab (which wasn't used on the SD60 demonstrators built at the same time - maybe SDs weren't considered "fast" enough).

EMD 5,6 and 7 were GP60s and they may have stayed with EMD. EMD 8,9 and 10 were GP59s and became Norfolk Southern 4606 to 4608. These, with the other NS GP59s, were used on the Triple Crown Roadrailers in the 1990s, I'm told (The one time I saw it it had a GP50).

The vee-front cab reminded me of Alcos!

Peter

[espeefoamer]

I prefer standard cab units over wide nose units...But then, I prefer cab units over hood units,GG1s over AEM7s and HHP8s.And if I had seen steam, I would prefer that over diesel,but we can't stop progress,and engines aren't built to satisfy us railfans.

[AntonioFP45]

Thanks my friend!

For a while there I was actually thinking that "Spartan" might have referred to the modified standard cabs that had the "rounded" corners. There were 2 or 4 EMD demonstrators that had this styling in the early 90s. Were they GP59s? TRAINS had the article. Some of you might remember it. I thought that the modified styling looked pretty neat, but the railroads didn't go for it.

Anyone know what became of these units as they were brand new then?

Cheers!

[M636C]

Antonio,

Yes, the name "Spartan" for the cab reflected the simplicity of the design on the GP35 and SD35 (flat roof panels) compared to the very complex GP30 (which had a very tall electrical cabinet that required the "hump" above the cab) and the arched roof on the SD24 which preceded the 35 line. In fact, EMD export units from 1954 used the same angular styling, but the "Spartan" name only became popular after the GP35 was introduced. This became the "standard" cab so liked by NS in particular.

Peter

[AntonioFP45]

Quick question:

Is the standard cab also referred to as the "Spartan Cab"? Or was this another design?

[adrianspeeder]

Function over form people, function over form.

Adrianspeeder

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

I think the standard cab is much more aesthetic than the safety version.

Gabe

I'll second that. However, the tapered nose on later SD60Ms and SD70Ms does look nice.

[Anonymous]

widecabs .more room to walk around and likely more safe than standard.