Your tax dollars at work. Good primer though. They recently combined the Army railway MOS into one. So now one person will be trained on track maintenence and construction, locomotive and equipment maintenence and locomotive and equipment operation (the existing commercial railway labor unions would probably flip at that revolutionary idea of combining crafts).
They are going to start teaming the railway MOS folks to go out into the field with Special Forces units...........which is an interesting new twist at nation building.
Here is the manual link:
http://armypubs.army.mil/doctrine/DR_pubs/dr_a/pdf/atp4_14.pdf
Anyways, read a reference on the Illinois Railway Museum web page that the 757th Army Railway unit visited IRM recently from Ft. Eustis, VA. They did not specify why but perhaps for some training or familiarization? Not sure but it would be neat if Railway Museums could benefit from their labor.......while they train on equipment. Win-win situation.
CMStPnP Your tax dollars at work. Good primer though. They recently combined the Army railway MOS into one. So now one person will be trained on track maintenence and construction, locomotive and equipment maintenence and locomotive and equipment operation (the existing commercial railway labor unions would probably flip at that revolutionary idea of combining crafts). They are going to start teaming the railway MOS folks to go out into the field with Special Forces units...........which is an interesting new twist at nation building. Here is the manual link: http://armypubs.army.mil/doctrine/DR_pubs/dr_a/pdf/atp4_14.pdf Anyways, read a reference on the Illinois Railway Museum web page that the 757th Army Railway unit visited IRM recently from Ft. Eustis, VA. They did not specify why but perhaps for some training or familiarization? Not sure but it would be neat if Railway Museums could benefit from their labor.......while they train on equipment. Win-win situation. (Highlighted: samfp1943)
(Highlighted: samfp1943)
With references tto the last paragraph: I recall reading an article a couple of years back about the Wiscassett,Waterville and Farmington Railroad Museum That had the good fortune to have an "Army Unit" ( Reserve or National Guard) that came to the museum and did some volunteer track work that was badly needed to help the museum track and bridge work(?).
The public tends to forget the work of the US Army's Railway Battalions performed during in most theaters of the WWII. And even their activities in WWI providing troop transport, and ammunition resupply at the 'Front'. As well as the work done on both sides of the Civil War to manintain, and disrupt the infant American Railnetwork.
It might be that the current generations do not view 'railroads' to be as 'sexy' as some of the other endeavors such as cyber warfare, or armored engagements ( much of which is now taught by training with video games(?). Drone operations(?). It is still going to take individual effort; individual's with small arms, and their own sweat and blood to combat an enemy who is so inclined to fight for the same ground, to grind out 'victories'. Not nearly as 'sexy' as big engagement with expensive weaponry, but every bit as necessary. Transport of bullets and beans to areas of combat will always call for those that understand 'arcane' systems like railroad infrastructure to get there "fustest with the mostest" To sort of paraphrase Confederate General Nathan B. Forrest.
"Amateurs study tactics; professionals study logistics." - attributed to many.
Interesting booklet. My very perfunctory review concludes that there's a lot of unnecessary material - too much on the operation of wrecking cranes is a good example - and some material that's very dated. A week or two on a decent-sized and busy shortline or regional railroad would probably be a better training experience.
Note: "HN" = "Host Nation" - took me awhile to figure out that.
(I was going to quote from the 1st paragraph, but somehow I fumbled it and it was destroyed. I'm so tired of that happening on this website, I'm not going to bother recreating it.)
I thought Afghanistan - around which experience this booklet is written - didn't have any railroads ? Well, apparently not much/ many until recently, and even then only about 50 miles and a 20 mile branch - but lots of plans:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Afghanistan
http://www.andrewgrantham.co.uk/afghanistan/
- Paul North.
A good article about his experiences during WW II - might also be some stories in his others, too:
samfp1943Your tax dollars at work.
Apparently, not very ****** well !!
I didn't get very far into this manual before I blew my top. This Expeditionary Railway Center (ERC) (what desk jocky dreamed that one up?!) they're talking about would have a total authorized strength of 184 people. That's broken down as:
The headquarters element consists of 14 Soldiers, including the ERC’s O-6 commander. The railway planning and advisory teams each consist of 34 Soldiers, including their O-5 commanders.
Now I've been out of the service for a few years (few=50+) but I do remember pay grades, ranks, etc. The two sentences I quoted above mean that the ERC will be commanded by a full Colonel with an administrative staff of 13 and five Lieutenant Colonels who will each command 33 people. (For you Navy veterans, that's a Captain and five Commanders.) For comparison purposes, an Army or Marine Corps rifle company is about 200 people commanded by a Captain (O-3) with four Lieutenants (O-1 or O-2) who are, as I was informed when I was one, "learning to be officers".
The current base pay (not including benefits) for less than 2 years to more than 18 years service is $6,267 to $9,848 for a full Colonel and $5,224 to $8,389 per month for a Lieutenant Colonel. You can bet the ranch that these people will be closer to 18 years service than 2; if you were in the service, how many people with these ranks did you know with less than about 15 years service? I didn't know any.
So do the numbers. We (you and I) are going to be paying these six officers alone $313,440 to $696,720 per year to run an outfit that's little more than half the size of a rife company. That rifle company Captain and four Lieutenants, by the way, receive a maximum of $304,848.
If there is a Table of Organization and Equipment (TO&E) available for the ERC, I'd love to see it. I'm betting that at least half the other ranks are junior officers (Majors and below) and the other half are senior NCOs. There probably is no formal TO&E yet for the ERC though; the Army may not be using them any more and they're typically not drawn up until the unit is about to be manned.
I've only skimmed the rest of the manual so far but from what I've seen and what you said about combining the Army's railway MOSs into one, maybe the ranks I'm ranting about are justified. It sounds like they at least think they have a source of railroad supermen.
Gotta back off. My blood pressure is going through the roof.
ChuckAllen, TX
I retired from the Department of Defense worked a number of years in logistics computer operations and programming. No a TOE (table of equipment) and TOO (table of organization are not available to the general public. Seperatly they are not classified. BUT together they are classified SECRET. That information would give an adivsary knowledge of our equipment, strenght and capabilities. Any time we handled that information in hard copy form it was kept in the secure vault.
samfp1943 It might be that the current generations do not view 'railroads' to be as 'sexy' as some of the other endeavors such as cyber warfare, or armored engagements ( much of which is now taught by training with video games(?). Drone operations(?). It is still going to take individual effort; individual's with small arms, and their own sweat and blood to combat an enemy who is so inclined to fight for the same ground, to grind out 'victories'. Not nearly as 'sexy' as big engagement with expensive weaponry, but every bit as necessary. Transport of bullets and beans to areas of combat will always call for those that understand 'arcane' systems like railroad infrastructure to get there "fustest with the mostest" To sort of paraphrase Confederate General Nathan B. Forrest.
I read in TRAINS article from one of the Soldiers in one of the railway BN. Both Army Reserve Railway Bn deployed to Iraq and were instrumental in getting the Iraqi railways back up and running on a limited basis post 2003 invasion. So yes they are still used.
cefinkjr samfp1943 Your tax dollars at work. Apparently, not very ****** well !! I didn't get very far into this manual before I blew my top. This Expeditionary Railway Center (ERC) (what desk jocky dreamed that one up?!) they're talking about would have a total authorized strength of 184 people. That's broken down as: The headquarters element consists of 14 Soldiers, including the ERC’s O-6 commander. The railway planning and advisory teams each consist of 34 Soldiers, including their O-5 commanders. Now I've been out of the service for a few years (few=50+) but I do remember pay grades, ranks, etc. The two sentences I quoted above mean that the ERC will be commanded by a full Colonel with an administrative staff of 13 and five Lieutenant Colonels who will each command 33 people. (For you Navy veterans, that's a Captain and five Commanders.) For comparison purposes, an Army or Marine Corps rifle company is about 200 people commanded by a Captain (O-3) with four Lieutenants (O-1 or O-2) who are, as I was informed when I was one, "learning to be officers". The current base pay (not including benefits) for less than 2 years to more than 18 years service is $6,267 to $9,848 for a full Colonel and $5,224 to $8,389 per month for a Lieutenant Colonel. You can bet the ranch that these people will be closer to 18 years service than 2; if you were in the service, how many people with these ranks did you know with less than about 15 years service? I didn't know any. So do the numbers. We (you and I) are going to be paying these six officers alone $313,440 to $696,720 per year to run an outfit that's little more than half the size of a rife company. That rifle company Captain and four Lieutenants, by the way, receive a maximum of $304,848. If there is a Table of Organization and Equipment (TO&E) available for the ERC, I'd love to see it. I'm betting that at least half the other ranks are junior officers (Majors and below) and the other half are senior NCOs. There probably is no formal TO&E yet for the ERC though; the Army may not be using them any more and they're typically not drawn up until the unit is about to be manned. I've only skimmed the rest of the manual so far but from what I've seen and what you said about combining the Army's railway MOSs into one, maybe the ranks I'm ranting about are justified. It sounds like they at least think they have a source of railroad supermen. Gotta back off. My blood pressure is going through the roof.
samfp1943 Your tax dollars at work.
Well you can relax now....
Well it might not be apparent in the manual or internet articles but the Expeditionary Railway Center actually is the new name for the Railway Transportation Corps at Ft. Eustis, VA. They are reponsible for all the training and doctrine of the Army railway MOS'. Which I might add includes two Railway BN in addition to the center. And if you add in the support BN needed, amounts to half an Army Brigade of manpower. More that appropriate to be headed by an O-6 Full Bird Colonel. On top of that the Army has moved to a Modular Brigade Structure which again is where "Expeditionary" comes from. They no longer deploy at the Division level as they used to but rather Brigade or smaller level. So it is not unusual say for the 101st Airborne Division to have Infantry Bn in Iraq, Afghanistan, Africa and South Korea all at once and under different commands. It's smarter and cheaper to do things that way as they do not have to maintain as much overhead or as large a standing Army.
So net result is savings to the taxpayer. So potentially, I would have to go to the Ft. Eustis webpage to see what other units fall under this Expeditionary Railway unit to make it self sufficient to deploy at the Brigade level or less. I have no idea as I have not studied the new Organization nor asked about it.
Additionally and finally after almost 5 decades of waiting for it. The Army and Army Reserve / National Guard are going to start operating as one unit instead of three. They are starting to affliate both Army Reserve and National Guard units with Active Army units. So now when an Active Army unit deploys such as First Cav or Third Infantry Division, they will be taking their National Guard and Army Reserve affiliates with them. No more of the stay at home business that took place prior to the GWOT. It's going to be interesting how that plays out because communities are going to feel it more now when an Active Army unit deploys overseas as it's taking the weekend warriors with them now. When I was in the National Guard in the 1980's they tried doing that but the Army Generals would fight it tooth and nail. They tried it again with Operation Desert Storm but again Army Generals intervened and nixed the plan. Finally now with the troop cutbacks they feel they have to do it and finally the Army Generals are not fighting it. So in reality with a 450,000 Active duty Army Force plus NG and Reserve we are back up to almost 800,000 standing Army again. Throw in the Marines and we are close to or over a Million.
No longer is the National Guard or the Army Reserve unit a place of safety or a place to hide out and bide your time. Finally they will share the risk and mission with the Active Duty Force equally.
So a LOT has changed just within the last 10 years.
caldreamerNo a TOE (table of equipment) and TOO (table of organization are not available to the general public.
"In my day" they were a single table (hence the & in TO&E). I don't recall if they were classified or not. If they were, I doubt it was above "Confidential" as they were frequently referenced in Orderly Rooms, Supply Rooms, Maintenance, etc. But I can see how the information therein would have been invaluable to an enemy, particularly a clandestine enemy.
Thanks for the lengthy reply, CMStPnP. You did reset my blood pressure a bit but that manual seemed to me to be saying this was the entire organization that would actually go abroad to work with HN railroads.
My first choice of branches on graduation was Transportation Corps (my second was Armor with Europe and Hawaii as assignment preferences --- any suprise that I wound up as a tanker in Korea? ). Even though I didn't get TC, I've always known about Eustis and kind of followed any stories about it.
The word "Center" in ERC should have been a clue that they were talking about Fort Eustis. I guess I'm too much old school and out of touch with the modern Army. I guess "Fort" doesn't sound warm and fuzzy enough for ... Ooops, almost got political.
Even with your explanation though, I still wonder at the wisdom of a single railway MOS. Nobody can possibly be expert enough in all aspects of railroading to be able to step into an engineer's job today, a dispatcher's job tomorrow, and RoW construction or mainenance the next day. And these people are expected to advise HN operating personnel? Maybe the HN people will let 'em make coffee every morning.
As a former Transportation Corps lieutenant who spent my years on active duty at Ft. Eustis, I'm very glad to learn that the US Army is retaining some rail capability. I thought they had totally done away with rail in the latest round of cuts. (I was with the "Railway Operating Detachment" for a while, but then I was moved to a truck company. I then did two year's reserve time with the 1157th Trans Co., part of the 757th, in Milwaukee.)
I was disappointed that their new document did not include anything about moving containers and trailers. Or the special terminal requirements for intermodal. I reason that's a lot of what would be moved from arrival ports.
Could the Army be brought in to break a railway strike in a national emergency?
cefinkjr Nobody can possibly be expert enough in all aspects of railroading to be able to step into an engineer's job today, a dispatcher's job tomorrow, and RoW construction or mainenance the next day. And these people are expected to advise HN operating personnel? Maybe the HN people will let 'em make coffee every morning.
Nobody can possibly be expert enough in all aspects of railroading to be able to step into an engineer's job today, a dispatcher's job tomorrow, and RoW construction or mainenance the next day. And these people are expected to advise HN operating personnel? Maybe the HN people will let 'em make coffee every morning.
I was Infantry in the early to mid-1980's a lot has changed there. When I asked on FB why the 101st Infantry were allowed to wear cold weather masks now with ballistic glasses, I was given an update that they are ballistic masks because they fire low velocity "paint" bullets at each other now and that mask keeps the round from tearing / bruising exposed skin. They no longer use the MILES equipment as much with the new paint rounds..............so even that has changed fairly radically. They have completely dropped Drill and Ceremony from the Infantry MOS basic and AIT and concentrated on war fighting, specifically in the insurgency area. You go to Ft. Benning now and they have posters in the training barracks on how to identify an IED or VBIED on approach before it detonates. They are actually too immersed in insurgency training and need to be reoriented back to conventional warfare training so say the Generals of today.
From what I gather reading and talking to folks online is the new generalist railway MOS is for advise and assist missions that partner with Special Forces. Special Forces for those that were never in the Army is not intended as a combat force they are largely teachers for Nation Building and most are required to know more than one foriegn language as well as more than one native culture. Though they are equipped for combat and enter combat areas and can engage in combat. Really they are supposed to bring in the Nation Building MOS's like Civil Affairs, Transport, etc to get things up and operating again..........in a environment where a government has collapsed or failed. Thats where the past two political administrations have poured their money, Nation building capabilities and improving Infantry skills (largely entirely for Special Forces expansion). Thats their pre-emptive strategy for preventing a country from becomming a terrorist base.
Last time I was at Ft Benning was 2009 as my Nephew enlisted Infantry, it was pretty neat to go back and see all that had changed with training emphasis. They get much better and more realistic war training now in Basic and AIT. I also get quarterly updates still from the 101st Airborne via a Veterans Magazine for former Veterans of the units there..........which is kind of a nice way to stay updated on what is going on. National news media does not cover everything and it is nice to fill in the gaps. The 101st throws a big party each year in August called "Week of Eagles" for current Soldiers of the units there and past Veterans to get together for a week and meet each other, share stories of the unit. Only one other unit does that, that I am aware of......82nd Airborne with it's All American Week.
greyhounds: Your military 'career' sounds like what I had in mind for myself. Didn't quite work out that way though. For instance, I quite agree with your comment about containers because the first big container ship I ever saw was in the Port of Quinhon, RVN when I arrived there aboard USNS General John Pope (AP110).
CandOforprogress2 Could the Army be brought in to break a railway strike in a national emergency?
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act
Carrier officials provide limited critical services in case of a strike.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Hey CMStPnP, I was at Fort Bragg 1955-1957, on Smoke Bomb Hill, but not with the Artillary, but with Special Warfare, the PsyWar Center. Assistant Audio-Radio Member of the PsyWar Board. A shavetail that made First on-schedule. Never did get sent to Korea, but most of my students in loudspeaker operations did. Got to know Fayetteville fairly well. Occasionally visited Myrtle Beach for a swim in the ocean.
I "commended" a test-and-evalution group of three-to-five enlisted men, always including one sargeant. And one of my PFCs was one of my best friends and classmate as undergraduates at MIT. No problems arose from that, and we are still very good friends, with common interests in railroads, audio, and music.
In fact, he arranges each year for me to receive the very beautiful Providence and Worcester calender.
Some of the higher ranking officers really impressed me, and I can be proud to have been their friend. There was Lt. Bailey, red-headed, had been a prisoner of the Chinese for half-a-year and survived some very very miserable experiences. There was Major Keravauri, who had been in WWII as a young soldier on the "wrong" side, fighting for Finland against the Russians and proud to share his knowledge to preserve freedom.(Finland did NOT turn over its own Jewish population to the Nazis, and all but 100 Jews who fled to Finland found refuge there, and the 100 who did not were the result of an error.) And there was a Colonial Gulley, who was a very devote and knowledgable Catholic, with whom I had interesting theological disciussions.
I let the two BOQ orderlies use my hifi set while cleaning the building. Both loved classical music a much as I did and do. One, Jerry Schoenfeld, became a very wealthy advertizing executive on Madison Avenue. Don't know what happened to the other, Ivo Fierabend, who had fled Communist Hungary. He still had nostalgia with a beautiful picture book of historic buildings in Budapest.
Indian Head in Maryland has tracks in place, many with railcars sitting on them. But the former right of way into the complex has been converted into a recreational trail with no sign of any rail to connect the facility to the outside world. I guess those railcars will slowly rust in place.
BaltACD CandOforprogress2 Could the Army be brought in to break a railway strike in a national emergency? Carrier officials provide limited critical services in case of a strike.
I had that privilege once and it wasn't even our (then-NYC) people who were on strike. A major customer could be serviced only via a track running through the property of a second customer who was on strike. Our crews wouldn't cross the picket lines to serve the customer who was not on strike.
That was the occasion of my being introduced to climbing on a moving tank car . . . on a foggy night! Scary.
daveklepper Hey CMStPnP, I was at Fort Bragg 1955-1957, on Smoke Bomb Hill, but not with the Artillary, but with Special Warfare, the PsyWar Center. Assistant Audio-Radio Member of the PsyWar Board. A shavetail that made First on-schedule. Never did get sent to Korea, but most of my students in loudspeaker operations did. Got to know Fayetteville fairly well. Occasionally visited Myrtle Beach for a swim in the ocean. I "commended" a test-and-evalution group of three-to-five enlisted men, always including one sargeant. And one of my PFCs was one of my best friends and classmate as undergraduates at MIT. No problems arose from that, and we are still very good friends, with common interests in railroads, audio, and music. In fact, he arranges each year for me to receive the very beautiful Providence and Worcester calender. Some of the higher ranking officers really impressed me, and I can be proud to have been their friend. There was Lt. Bailey, red-headed, had been a prisoner of the Chinese for half-a-year and survived some very very miserable experiences. There was Major Keravauri, who had been in WWII as a young soldier on the "wrong" side, fighting for Finland against the Russians and proud to share his knowledge to preserve freedom.(Finland did NOT turn over its own Jewish population to the Nazis, and all but 100 Jews who fled to Finland found refuge there, and the 100 who did not were the result of an error.) And there was a Colonial Gulley, who was a very devote and knowledgable Catholic, with whom I had interesting theological disciussions. I let the two BOQ orderlies use my hifi set while cleaning the building. Both loved classical music a much as I did and do. One, Jerry Schoenfeld, became a very wealthy advertizing executive on Madison Avenue. Don't know what happened to the other, Ivo Fierabend, who had fled Communist Hungary. He still had nostalgia with a beautiful picture book of historic buildings in Budapest.
Ok well first being former PsyWar you need to rent the movie "Men that Stare at Goats"........the entire movie is mostly an inside Army Joke directed at the PsyWar folks of the 1960's and 1970's but done during the GWOT. It was a civilian movie done with George Clooney and released post 2000 but most that went and saw it the jokes fell flat because they did not understand the training back in the 1960's and 1970's..........which is too bad. I thought the movie was funny.
Most folks did not get that the Goats in the movie were a dig at the notorioius Goat Lab that the SF Medics still use. I think PsyWar split off and is called PsyOps until a few years ago, not sure what it is called today. They keep reorganizing and renaming things BUT it is interesting it survived until around 2008-2009. RANGER training was Mandatory for PsyOps but not Special Forces training in it's later years. They had BOQ when I served in the 1980's but I don't think they have them anymore.
Amazingly a lot of items have been privitized now. I chuckle at these Bernie Sanders folks saying our Army is example of Socialism........ehhh, maybe shortly after WWII and maybe during Vietnam BUT not anymore!!! The enlisted troops that are married live in really, really beautiful built private houses now that I wish were available during my period of service. Same deal with the officers. Barracks today look better than a college dorm with a shared kitchen and restroom but with three really nice barracks room off that common area and each barracks room has a nice computer desk and fairly massive closet space. No more open bay barracks or sharing rooms. They have a few tours of the new barracks on youtube if you do a search.....you'll be blown away. Troops these days don't brasso or shoe shine any longer. Their class A low quarters are the never shine but always shiny corfan leather, their brass has a ever shine finish on it now. Combat boots are now the desert sand suede that they just brush off each day. Very few Army cooks and firefighters.......their work is done via private contractors. They are slowly phasing out mechanics as well. They have some MP's still but not in the numbers they used to.
Now here is a big change. No longer is it "do what I say because I have rank". Troops now are allowed to challenge direction and ask why, they have to do it respectfully and politely of course but this was unheard of during the Vietnam era. It does make for better leaders to always be on their toes with a plan A, plan B and plan C and be able to answer pointed questions on each. Also Infantry Officers now are the smartest West Point and ROTC has to offer now. Officer slots and Officer Branches are competed for based on academic record and physical fitness and Infantry as well as Special Forces are at the top of the list by those competing. RANGER school is expected of all Infantry Officers to attend and earn the RANGER tab. In Airborne units most Company Commanders are former Special Forces and have earned the Special Forces tab. It's quite a change, Infantry used to be towards the bottom during the draft era but no longer.....that started to change around the early 1980's. They booted out the folks that could not do HS math or read at a HS level.
82nd Airborne and the units at Ft. Bragg are still the tip of the spear though and among the first to deploy when there is a crises.
CandOforprogress2Gee our US Army can rebuild railroads in Iraq and elsewhere but what about right here? The Ravenna Arsenal tracks in Ohio has not been touched in 50 years
I believe it has to be a not for profit enterprise. Railroad Museums that qualify as not for profit, probably every once in a while the Army unit can do a training exercise there (but not repeatedly). Interestingly NGO's like churches in the United States can order Boeing C-17's to airlift donated cargo to anywhere in the world the USAF flies on a space available basis and that can even be done by a church. However they have to apply via the USAF Airlift Wing and submit forms reviewed by committee and get approval...........and of course they must be not for profit.
The Army sometimes has an issue I know there was a case in Wisconsin where an Engineer unit repaved a church parking lot and the local Athiests got all hot and bothered. Courts found it was OK though based on the non-profit criteria and it being a church had zero to do with it.
I believe those are the basic rules.
CMStPnPNow here is a big change. No longer is it "do what I say because I have rank". Troops now are allowed to challenge direction and ask why, they have to do it respectfully and politely of course but this was unheard of during the Vietnam era. It does make for better leaders to always be on their toes with a plan A, plan B and plan C and be able to answer pointed questions on each. Also Infantry Officers now are the smartest West Point and ROTC has to offer now. Officer slots and Officer Branches are competed for based on academic record and physical fitness and Infantry as well as Special Forces are at the top of the list by those competing. RANGER school is expected of all Infantry Officers to attend and earn the RANGER tab. In Airborne units most Company Commanders are former Special Forces and have earned the Special Forces tab. It's quite a change, Infantry used to be towards the bottom during the draft era but no longer.....that started to change around the early 1980's. They booted out the folks that could not do HS math or read at a HS level.
I'm afraid I have to take issue with much of what you've written in this paragraph. I am a Vietnam veteran. I say that only so you'll know where/when I'm coming from. A large part of my Leadership training courses and guidance from senior officers after joining my first unit was that I had to tell my subordinates the "why" of what I wanted them to do. It was also my experience that telling them why was soon enough; they could and did figure out the what for themselves. And the bonus, of course, was that knowing the why and figuring out the what made them much more enthusiastic about getting the job done.
The best of West Point and ROTC graduates getting first choice of branch and initial duty station assignments is nothing new. That was true in my day as well. Interestingly enough, the top students usually chose Infantry, Armor, Artillery, and Engineers in that order; probably because they correctly saw better advancement and career opportunities there. I don't know but I assume the same was and is true of OCS graduates.
As to Ranger or Airborne qualification, branch didn't matter then. You could not get a Regular Army commission unless you were Ranger or Airborne qualified. And if you were not in one of the four combat branches I mentioned above, you had to serve in one of them for a minimum period of ??? months before reverting to your Finance, Transportation, or whatever other branch you were assigned to.
All of this, of course, is based on my experiences at Fort Knox, in Korea, at then Fort Lewis, and finally in Vietnam. But it's a big Army and you may have had very different experiences. It does sound though like it is improving more than I thought it would based on the drug problems we had in Vietnam. Our unit was blessed with a HUGE SP7 medic who periodically "lectured" younger people; they generally avoided drugs after one of his "lectures" rather than risk another. Other units I know were not so blessed and had really serious problems.
Absolute true story.
So I was this 22 year old 2nd lieutenant then in charge of what was left of the rail training facilities at Ft. Eustis. I had something like 15 men.
I wanted to get a Jordan Spreader (we had one) out and push back the vegitation encroaching on the right of way. The train would have to go across a couple trestles that hadn't been used in a while. So I asked the post engineer's office to check the trestles and make sure they were OK to use. The Corps of Engineers major told me the trestles looked OK and that any possible collapse would be slow. We'd have time to back off the trestle if it started to fail.
So, being the safety oriented Army Railroader that I was, I decided to station men on the mostly dry river beds so they could keep an eye the trestles as our SW-7 moved the Jordan across. We had a draftee PFC off the Birmingham Southern. He was OK as a railroader but a somewhat indifferent soldier. I walked him out on the trestle, pointed out where I wanted him to stand, and explained what I wanted him to do. As an after thought I said to him: "And watch out for the snakes." As I walked away I heard him repeat that to himself. "And watch out for the snakes". (What will they have me do next?)
I then saw him standing on a trestle bent, looking down at the river bed, while waving his arms. He yelled: "Hey snakes, you'all go away."
Anyway, everybody did what they were assigned to do and the train crossed the trestles without a problem. A few months later a reserve engineer unit came in and surveyed/repaired the trestles.
I'll remember that until the day I die. That young PFC standing there waving his arms and yelling: "Hey snakes, you'all go away".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1eLlS5ZhRU&t=1m
greyhounds Absolute true story. So I was this 22 year old 2nd lieutenant then in charge of what was left of the rail training facilities at Ft. Eustis. I had something like 15 men. I wanted to get a Jordan Spreader (we had one) out and push back the vegitation encroaching on the right of way. The train would have to go across a couple trestles that hadn't been used in a while. So I asked the post engineer's office to check the trestles and make sure they were OK to use. The Corps of Engineers major told me the trestles looked OK and that any possible collapse would be slow. We'd have time to back off the trestle if it started to fail. So, being the safety oriented Army Railroader that I was, I decided to station men on the mostly dry river beds so they could keep an eye the trestles as our SW-7 moved the Jordan across. We had a draftee PFC off the Birmingham Southern. He was OK as a railroader but a somewhat indifferent soldier. I walked him out on the trestle, pointed out where I wanted him to stand, and explained what I wanted him to do. As an after thought I said to him: "And watch out for the snakes." As I walked away I heard him repeat that to himself. "And watch out for the snakes". (What will they have me do next?) I then saw him standing on a trestle bent, looking down at the river bed, while waving his arms. He yelled: "Hey snakes, you'all go away." Anyway, everybody did what they were assigned to do and the train crossed the trestles without a problem. A few months later a reserve engineer unit came in and surveyed/repaired the trestles. I'll remember that until the day I die. That young PFC standing there waving his arms and yelling: "Hey snakes, you'all go away".
Johnny
DeggestyNot absolutely true; here is the truth: the PFC yelled, "Hey snakes, Y'all go away."
Oh, is that the correct spelling? I didn't know that. I apologize for my error.
Anyway, I came back from Virginia saying "Y'all" a lot. Two of my female cousins found that extremely funny.
cefinkjrI'm afraid I have to take issue with much of what you've written in this paragraph. I am a Vietnam veteran. I say that only so you'll know where/when I'm coming from. A large part of my Leadership training courses and guidance from senior officers after joining my first unit was that I had to tell my subordinates the "why" of what I wanted them to do. It was also my experience that telling them why was soon enough; they could and did figure out the what for themselves. And the bonus, of course, was that knowing the why and figuring out the what made them much more enthusiastic about getting the job done. The best of West Point and ROTC graduates getting first choice of branch and initial duty station assignments is nothing new. That was true in my day as well. Interestingly enough, the top students usually chose Infantry, Armor, Artillery, and Engineers in that order; probably because they correctly saw better advancement and career opportunities there. I don't know but I assume the same was and is true of OCS graduates. As to Ranger or Airborne qualification, branch didn't matter then. You could not get a Regular Army commission unless you were Ranger or Airborne qualified. And if you were not in one of the four combat branches I mentioned above, you had to serve in one of them for a minimum period of ??? months before reverting to your Finance, Transportation, or whatever other branch you were assigned to. All of this, of course, is based on my experiences at Fort Knox, in Korea, at then Fort Lewis, and finally in Vietnam. But it's a big Army and you may have had very different experiences. It does sound though like it is improving more than I thought it would based on the drug problems we had in Vietnam. Our unit was blessed with a HUGE SP7 medic who periodically "lectured" younger people; they generally avoided drugs after one of his "lectures" rather than risk another. Other units I know were not so blessed and had really serious problems.
I think you misunderstood what I said. There is NO choosing of branch any longer, you place what branches you want on a wish list and if your academic and fitness scores make the cut you get it otherwise the Army chooses for you. The slot also has to be open and if is not at the time you graduate, you also get assigned somewhere else.
I am aware of how it worked in the 1970's and 1960's we still had some that enlisted back then in the early 1980's or bounced back in after doing a stint as a civilian. Specialist ranks other than Specialist 4 were phased out around 1982-1983.......they transitioned to the equivalent ranks after attending classes or they left the service. Some of what you say was a wartime measure. Ranger school was made an expectation/requirement because of the experience in Vietnam of sending 2nd LT's overseas that new less than the multi-tour Sergeants. I don't know when that changed in the 1960's but it was a 1960's change, only mentioned it because Dave said he was in the late 1940's or 1950's I believe. The change was made by General Westmoreland who also implemented the Recondo course as a "RANGER light" course because the RANGER course was too long. Met General Westmoreland in 1986 duing a Week of Eagles get together, he was retired of course and it was right after the Dan Rather hatchet job he took. He was very nice and I am aware a lot of the Vietnam Vets do not like him. Still nice of him to show up and great history to see the guy in the flesh and hear him speak.
Fortunately, the Army pulls in a well balanced cross section of society economic class wise and social problem wise. So it will always have a drug issue to an extent. They conduct unannounced urinanlysis tests and catch most but not all the drug users......they all get caught eventually. I would say 7-8% of an Infantry unit is undergoing Chapter proceedings at any given point in time (folks getting booted out), it varies from drug use, alcholism, theft, etc. The drug issue is not as bad as it was in Vietnam I was so informed by the serving Vietnam Veterans. My squad leader by the way was a SGT that served with the Americal Division and he had a CIB and very bad PTSD. He tried civilian life and did not like it, re-enlisted I think in 1980....he got drunk sometimes but was smart enough not to be on duty drunk, he lost most of his teeth due to a but stroke in the face by VC. Bn Commander was a Vietnam Vet served there as a LT he had a huge chest scar because of a VC slash series across his chesk with a bayonete during a charge.........he is still serving retired wise he helps out by visiting the wounded 101st Soldiers at the Hospitals in DC, giving them T-shirts and stuff he was a Currahee (503rd). He is pretty old now though......LTC in 1984, he was in his late 30's then. Other Vietnam veterans as well still serving in the 1980's......mostly senior NCO's some Junior though.
On the flip side in my time of service we had enlisted Soldiers with Masters degrees and one going for a PhD in Economics. A good percentage had one or more years of college but still about 50% of the Infantry is just high school graduate. The only way they accept GED's now is with 15 college credits from college level courses on top. They no longer take high school dropouts nor do they allow the "join the Army or go to jail" folks and they turn away those that show up with that type of sentence commutation by a judge.......those are changes from the Vietnam era that were implemented in the 1980's and hold true today. Also no longer accept folks with PTSD......once you leave the service with that ailment your locked out unless you waive it via the VA as an ailment. Unless you have a valor medal. Folks with valor medals can come and go as they please still (Bronze Star, Silver Star, Medal of Honor). They are de-emphasizing OCS now, in favor of ROTC or West Point. A change I don't think is smart and I am not sure why they are doing that.
One of the biggest benefits I got out of the Army was living and working with the less fortunate. Really made me appreciate my family. Also the diversity and intermixing of different cultures was interesting (Somoan, Phillipino, Puerto Rican, Central American, Russian.....yeah even during the Cold War, European, African American, etc)........some minor racial issues but very rare. Also the various religions intermixing (Muslim, Druid, Wiccan, Athiest, Catholic, Christian, Fundamentalist Christian, Presbyterian, Baptist, Fundamentalist or screaming Baptist, Jewish, Orthodox, etc)..........all very interesting. It was really the best education that no money could buy. Also, some peoples Parents were Angels other peoples Parents were the scum of the Earth. Saw one Parent bring their kid marajuana to smoke during "Family Day" which was a weekend break between basic and AIT........of course he got booted out right after for possession. What a real stupid thing for a Parent to do, but it's example of what I classified as scum Parents. Again made be grateful for how blessed I was to have better Parents than that.
I second the thought on what the USA Army did for ME. I was bright enough to make MIT and was a successful student there. At the time, the kind of education there coiuld give a graduate a swell head. The Army fixed that for me and taught the vertue of humility which I TRY to obtain, and hopefully sometime succeed. Also self-disciplin and the real ability to work with all kinds of people.
All my young fellow students have seerved`or are serving or will serve in Israel's armed forces. The Yeshiva accepted me because I am a USA veteran. And I get along with the youngsters because of what I learned in the Army.
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