Wizlish Deggesty I thought that anyone who knew anything about railroads knew that you do not step on rails. You said it, not me! On the other hand... the idea of not stepping on rails is part of the 'culture of safety' that keeps people from being injured or killed. Why tell Saunders about that?...
Deggesty I thought that anyone who knew anything about railroads knew that you do not step on rails.
Johnny
Wanswheel- Some superb digging up of historical information-top notch!
From the paper clip...."has pledged to stockholders his determination to restore the "Pennsy" to the forefront of the transportation industry" The phrase "Epic Fail" has not yet been invented.
....from the video clip he is boasting about the anticipated industrial expansion along the N&W that should translate into thousands of new carloadings....it means nothing, just empty rhetoric. Maybe the business all went to trucks or they lost more than they gained. There are no specifics about new signed contracts or any factual information. It's a bunch of hooey.
Was this man ever held accountable for the incredible economic failures that followed him, the desperation fixes and vast waste of capital and destruction that all came to light...no, they justified everything and danced their way through enriching themselves.
I have to agree that the demo of Penn Stayion was abad thing almost any way you look at it. However, remember that there was no great outcry until it had been reduced to a oopen construction site, when it was way too late to reconsider. Why was that? Didn't the city realize what they weere losing? I don't know, of course, but I think it might have been because PS had become infamous for its dirt. Iwas in and out of PS frequently during the late 40'2 and again in its final years. The place was filthy. I once asked a station emplyee why. He said that during the war. station staff was cut drastically and never replaced, Therefore, the dirt built up. The place looked (and smelt) terrible Women. were especially repulsed> So it was no surprise that there wasn't Much opposition to the demo. I think a lot of New Yorkers and commuters were actually happy to see it go.At least it seemed that way at the time. Yes, it's sad and a shme it'gone and never cleaned up. Sometimes I wonder if thePS was allowed to deteriorate on purpose. probably not. It was probably just one of those poor management practices the PRR had fallen into. Sad,really sad.
Well, we should look at the other side of the coin, at least for a bit.
It is true that with the slow death of the American passenger train Penn Station had become a "white elephant" that had outlived it's original purpose and was a drain on the PRR's finances. Certainly the building, if saved, could have been remodeled and repurposed internally for other uses, but remember back in the 60's few people, if any, even thought that way. "It's old, it's obsolete, it goes" was the prevailing mindset.
Look at it this way, maybe Penn Station had to die so others like Grand Central Terminal might live. Man's a funny animal, sometimes he needs a helluva wake-up call to realize what's going on around him and what he's going to lose if he's not careful.
Backtracking a bit to Stuart Saunders, he certainly wasn't an evil man, far from it, but instead of staying in the law department where he might have done some good he managed to "waterwalk" his way to the top of the heap eventually finding himself in a position that he was totally unfit to handle by training and temperament. It happens, in government, business, and the military. It's not for nothing Lawrence Peter came up with "The Peter Principle."
Ramrod/Firelock76- The City of New York, The State of New York and the Federal Government and the very top people of the mighty Pennsylvania RR all function in elite circles at these very high levels. These were important people, leaders, shakers, intellects. They knew better. Tax concessions, restoration/clean up monies could easily have been had even back then. The almighty buck won at all levels. The destruction of the PRR continued to its final demise.
Passenger revenue was never important to the bottom line. The demise of passenger trains was of benefit to the railroads.
I believe that today's remaining subterranean Penn Station is the busiest in America. It's functional but "Let them eat cake" comes to mind. Of course Washington Union Station has been restored to its former glory along with its raving reviews and self congratulatory pats on the head.
The picture of Saunders and Perlman speaks volumes. They are pretty pleased with themselves. "Here we are, we pulled off the heist and boy are we rich. It's all ours to do with as we please." Reading on in the report in a years time 61% of Trainmasters, 81% of Transportation Superintendents, 44% of Division Superintentents ( 80% in a year and half) and all but one General Manager were replaced by people with less than a years experience. So they gutted the officer core. Ensuing choas creates lost cars and even whole trains, no billings or multiple billings. Cars kept in motion for lack of someone to go. Yards choked. The picture says "we know what's coming and it's going to be fun when we cut bait and watch it all go to hell". The picture says " we don't give a damn about employees or service or tradition". The picture says "I put Penn Station in a swamp in New Jersey, got stinking rich and no one could do anything about it. Man are we going to be wealthy". The picture says " You are all fools".
Its all wrong because it's not in the spirit of free enterprise, responsibility, leadership, fairness, nation building and good intentions. I do not believe for a moment his intentions were honourable In any way.
MiningmanIts all wrong because it's not in the spirit of free enterprise, responsibility, leadership, fairness, nation building and good intentions. I do not believe for a moment his intentions were honourable In any way.
Is this in the right thread?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
ramrod The place was filthy. I once asked a station emplyee why. He said that during the war. station staff was cut drastically and never replaced, Therefore, the dirt built up. The place looked (and smelt) terrible Women. were especially repulsed> So it was no surprise that there wasn't Much opposition to the demo
An Episcopal priest I knew grew up in New Jersey in the late 1950's & 1960's, and knew enough about the reputation of the place so that for years, he said, he thought the phrase in the Lord's Prayer was "...and lead us not into Penn Station."
ramrod "I have to agree that the demo of Penn Stayion was abad thing almost any way you look at it. However, remember that there was no great outcry until it had been reduced to a oopen construction site, when it was way too late to reconsider. Why was that?" Not so. The 'Action Group for Better Architecture in New York" had an organized a protest to the destruction of PS on August 2, 1962, the group of 150 surrounded and picketed protesting the plan to demolish the building. This was before details of such were even announced. Other architectual organizations joined in the protest and petitioned the mayor of New York, Robert Wagner, to take action to stop or delay demolition. The problem, no legal authority at that time to do such. As stated in an editorial by the New York Times on October 30, 1963.."we will be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed.". Another attempt to save PS before destruction was a proposal for the New York Port Authority buy the station. No one within such considered it. Ultimately the whole situation formed the Landmarks Preservation Commission and new legislation to support their efforts. Its first test and victory, saving Grand Central Terminal from selling air rights and resulting in a look similar to the PS's now Madison Square Garden.
"I have to agree that the demo of Penn Stayion was abad thing almost any way you look at it. However, remember that there was no great outcry until it had been reduced to a oopen construction site, when it was way too late to reconsider. Why was that?"
Not so.
The 'Action Group for Better Architecture in New York" had an organized a protest to the destruction of PS on August 2, 1962, the group of 150 surrounded and picketed protesting the plan to demolish the building. This was before details of such were even announced. Other architectual organizations joined in the protest and petitioned the mayor of New York, Robert Wagner, to take action to stop or delay demolition. The problem, no legal authority at that time to do such.
As stated in an editorial by the New York Times on October 30, 1963.."we will be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed.".
Another attempt to save PS before destruction was a proposal for the New York Port Authority buy the station. No one within such considered it. Ultimately the whole situation formed the Landmarks Preservation Commission and new legislation to support their efforts. Its first test and victory, saving Grand Central Terminal from selling air rights and resulting in a look similar to the PS's now Madison Square Garden.
NKP guy ramrod The place was filthy. I once asked a station emplyee why. He said that during the war. station staff was cut drastically and never replaced, Therefore, the dirt built up. The place looked (and smelt) terrible Women. were especially repulsed> So it was no surprise that there wasn't Much opposition to the demo An Episcopal priest I knew grew up in New Jersey in the late 1950's & 1960's, and knew enough about the reputation of the place so that for years, he said, he thought the phrase in the Lord's Prayer was "...and lead us not into Penn Station."
Yes, my impression as well. I notice the pictures are from the glory years, in B&W mostly and even so, dark, almost gloomy.
GCT was a much better design, IMO.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Don't let that forced smile on the face of Al Perlman fool you, he was NOT in favor of a merger with the PRR but was overruled by the NYC's board of directors. As a good soldier he went along with the plan but believed it wasn't going to end well for a variety of reasons such as different corporate cultures, the two 'roads essentially parallelling each other in an area where the "Rust Belt" phenomenon was well underway leaving both 'roads scrambling for shippers, and other reasons. The merger was akin to two drowning men grabbing onto each other for support. If there was to be any merger with anyone Perlman's advice was to make it a "point-to-point" merger with a stronger 'road, anyone other than the PRR.
After the merger Perlman's position was really without power in the new organization, which in the end worked to his advantage. He was one of the few people to emerge from the Penn Central debacle with his reputation pretty much intact.
Firelock76- Ok thanks for that. The PRR showed its first signs of trouble in posting a loss in 1947 but I think it was widely considered a fixable glitch, a one of. When do you think the real demise of the PRR began in earnest. It really went downhill quite rapidly. I believe the Central Region of PRR held up the best. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.
Living in Southern Ontario at that time I had much more exposure to the NYC. The CASO (NYC) once superb high speed line fell into serious disrepair through deferred maintenance and non use. Such a shame and a waste. I vividly recall very long mail/express trains with pretty shabby looking baggage cars and beat up paint peeling E8's up front.
Never saw Penn Station but did arrive in Grand Central several times. You came within an inch of losing it but thank God wiser heads prevailed.
One additional note regarding Penn Station. The former Grand Trunk, later CN, union station in Ottawa, Canada's national capital, is a half scale replica of Penn Station. It barely survived the wreckers ball itself. It was slated for demolition in 1967 but that was Canada's Centennial Year of Confederation as a country and the government did not want a mess in the heart of the city during all the ongoing festivities. So it was postponed to the following year. Then it became a Government conference centre after some swivel servant pointed out there was a serious lack of meeting/conference space near the Parliment Buildings. It was that close to its demise. It is open to the public so if you wish to see what Penn Station looked like inside the waiting rooms take a trip to Ottawa. Of course the train sheds and tracks are long gone replaced by an expressway.
There's also BCE Place in Toronto. I always thought that Penn's concourse was it's inspiration
https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=bce+place+toronto&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001
Miningman, let me recommend a super book to you, I've mentioned it quite often, it's called "The Men Who Loved Trains." A major part of the book is devoted to the Penn Central, how it came about and the subsequent disaster. It was published several years ago but I don't think it's too hard to find. Trust me, once you start it's hard to put down, an outstanding business history.
Another book on the subject is "The Wreck Of The Penn Central" but as I've never read that one I can't comment on it. I think it was published back in the 1970's so it may be a bit harder to find.
According to "TMWLT" the Penn Central debacle came about due to corporate arrogance, incompetance, downright stupidity, and institutional inertia and blindness. Greed had very little to do with it.
Firelock76- Seen your reference to this book in other posts so thanks for recommendation. Have a ton of railroad books but not that one. Will do.
We Could/Should have done something like this with PS..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laySTZ0Kl2I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly-tjrV27-w
Miningman Firelock76- Seen your reference to this book in other posts so thanks for recommendation. Have a ton of railroad books but not that one. Will do.
I will caution you as to the accuracy of the book Wreck of the Penn Central, it has been noted to contain historical inaccuracies and although an attempt to be partial was made the book was written in haste to capitalize on the timing of the subject.
As recommened by others the Men Who Loved Train is a better choice, also the book No Way to Run A Railroad by Stephen Salsbury is another. Both written at a time after the dust had settled and clearer thinking prevailed. Others also available rather cheap from on line sellers.
I have read several items on the PC, interviewed employee's who lived the adventure of America's then biggest bankruptcy. Now the PC has gone the way of the Kennedy assination, so many fingers being pointed, ego's, bias opinions, hurt finances, inaccurate reporting, you just don't know who to believe.
For me America's two largest railroads didn't get that way because they were bad companies, they were both great in their day. As we ponder the PC it shadows the world of railroading around it and the problems and issues faced by many railroads, it just wasn't the PC. The PC is the poster child of the state of America's railroading at that time, a slap in the face that woke people up. So I wonder, if a "Stagers Act" had occured in 1960 rather than 1980 would the pain have been less, accomplishing what many feel would have resulted in something very similar to todays railroad structure. Undoubtedly as history shows, we needed a more cooperative and less restrictive government when came to railroads. They learned a harsh lesson, be thankful for Conrail.
Let the PC rest in peace, appreciate the study or being witness to two really good and sometimes entertaining railroads.
K4sPRR- In the very early 50's all the north eastern railroads were buying full page ads in the newspapers, even in Trains magazine I believe, denouncing the unfair competition arising from federal monies going into airports and the St. Lawrence Seaway. Top management could see what was happening and the consequences and were pushing only for fairness and a level playing field. Had the federal government addressed this perhaps a "Staggers" type act could have occurred even earlier yet. Considering the untold and under appreciated ( not amongst us railfans however) story of the railroads incredibe role and sacrifices for WWII, it would have been fair and shown gratitude for the government of the day to do so. Then things evolve quite differently... And much misery is avoided.
Wizlish Deggesty I thought that anyone who knew anything about railroads knew that you do not step on rails. On the other hand... the idea of not stepping on rails is part of the 'culture of safety' that keeps people from being injured or killed. Why tell Saunders about that?...
K4sPRR, thanks for the heads-up on "The Wreck Of..." I remember when the book came out, maybe in Barnes and Noble or Brentano's, as I remember the PC bankruptcy, but as I wasn't a railfan at the time I gave it a pass. I'll give it a pass now if I see it, unless I can get it cheap.
Would the Staggers Act have prevented a lot of railroad failures if it went into effect in the early 60's? Possibly, indeed probably. Remember many have said the railroads in the Northeast were essentially overbuilt, by that I mean there were too many of them for the available on-line business. When the Northeast was an industrial powerhouse the overbuilding wasn't an issue, there was plenty of business to go around, but as soon as the "Rust Belt" phenomenon began (for a variety of reasons which we probably shouldn't go into or we'll all get in trouble) it was a disaster for all those Northeast 'roads, AND of course there was the double whammy the anthracite 'roads faced when the demand for anthracite coal began to evaporate.
You said it, the PC bankruptcy was the "2x4 to the head" the legislators needed to wake up.
wanswheel
- Paul North.
Miningman K4sPRR- In the very early 50's all the north eastern railroads were buying full page ads in the newspapers, even in Trains magazine I believe, denouncing the unfair competition arising from federal monies going into airports and the St. Lawrence Seaway. Top management could see what was happening and the consequences and were pushing only for fairness and a level playing field. Had the federal government addressed this perhaps a "Staggers" type act could have occurred even earlier yet. Considering the untold and under appreciated ( not amongst us railfans however) story of the railroads incredibe role and sacrifices for WWII, it would have been fair and shown gratitude for the government of the day to do so. Then things evolve quite differently... And much misery is avoided.
So true!
Paul_D_North_Jr wanswheel Note the early version of Starbucks in the foreground, dispensing the lifeblood of the industry - oh wait, that belongs in zugman's thread . . . - Paul North.
Note the early version of Starbucks in the foreground, dispensing the lifeblood of the industry - oh wait, that belongs in zugman's thread . . .
And I'll betcha the "Coffee Pot" had some pretty good sinkers too!
As a college student, I worked my co-op assignments on the Buckeye Region of the PRR in the late fifties. We still had manual crossing gates on the crossings in Coshocton and Newcomerstown. Manual block running between Richmond and Logansport. Four daily passenger trains between Columbus and Cincinnati and three daily trains between Cincinnati and Chicago. Maned towers all over the place. And defered maintenance. But there was 152 lb rail on the little Miami. I was involved in reducing the Loveland crossing of the B&O from two PRR tracks to one to save costs. The Little Miami is a trail. and its hard to find any trace of the double track cab signalled racetrack East of Indianapolis. Too much plant for too little traffic. Amtrak was too late to save the PRR. I did get a job offer from the PRR in 61 when I graduated and I said to my dad that things were bad and they couldn't get much worse. I was so wrong. I chose to go with an Electric utility that made me a much better offer. I fault the ICC, management, and the unions for the demise of the mighy PRR. Management for failing to face facts and not being more aggressive in controlling costs and paying dividends when it didn't have the cash. Unions for failing to see that featherbeding was killing the goose that laid the golden egg, and the ICC for not recognizing that maintaining the status quo wasn't feasable any more.
This society requires a crisis to initiate change. There has to be a fatality at an intersection to motivate the installation of traffic signals. It took the demolition of Penn Station to save Grand Central. It may take the shut down of the Hudson River tunnels to get the new ones funded. Congress will fiddle until the public wakes up but it often is too lillte, too late. And of course, it costs more to rebuild after its gone.
Wanswheel- Terrific stuff. Watched the whole PBS documentary. Simply incredible. Thanks a ton.
When one looks at the enormity of what the PRR built when they put six tunnels under the rivers, building Hell Gate Bridge, and Sunnyside yard, as well as Penn Station and the post office, it is of such a magnitude that not many projects equal or exceed it.
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