Murphy Siding If I had called you a nut, that would have been a personal attack of sorts.
The way you tend to use the word 'conspiracy' usually comes across as though you mean it that way. Not worth further discussion, So I'll let it rest there.
zugmannBut what would make a customer want triple crown (or any roadrailer) over conventional intermodal? Is there any reason? Is there a need that roadrailers can uniquely fill?
(sigh) Murphy was asking for a scenario of how I might try to "sell" the service, so i provided one. If you read back, you'll see that i prequalified it as an exercise in futility since NS doesn't seem to want to "grow" that segment.
It would be the roadrailer service operator having the preference to promote their service to the customer, not the customer's preference for Roadrailer over "can on a chassis".
There must have been such a preference at one time, or roadrailer wouldn't have existed in the first place. The tare for the rail segment of travel would have to be less for roadrailer, so possible fuel savings comes to mind as a possible reason.
greyhoundsThis proposed TV ad is quite silly. It demonstrates that the proposer is basically clueless with regards to transportation economics (and advertising)
You can say that if you want, but in a country where people will buy auto insurance from a lizard I have to disagree.
Getting people's attention long enough to make your pitch IS advertising.
Murphy SidingI guess if it makes you feel better, I could quit using "you" and "your" and instead use "you're".
A better plan would be for you to fault ideas that you disagree with, rather than the source of the idea. fwiw
greyhounds[snipped - PDN] . . . The incompatibility issue was never solved. That issue destroyed any advantage that the use of RoadRailers may have had. There is no, none, zero, nada service that RoadRailer can provide to a customer, of any size, that cannot be more efficiently provided by a container. . . . RoadRailers have been tried and found wanting on the NS, BNSF, UP, CSX, my ICG and the CN. We all need to accept reality. Container movement, for any size customer, is simply a superior system.
. . .
RoadRailers have been tried and found wanting on the NS, BNSF, UP, CSX, my ICG and the CN. We all need to accept reality. Container movement, for any size customer, is simply a superior system.
No question that RR is practically incompatible with conventional freight or passenger operations. Don't know if it could work on the tail of an IM train - has that ever been tried ?
One advantage that RR has over containers - as presently utilized - is that the RR does not require a huge terminal with monstrous equipment and large traffic volumes to actually be put into/ onto a train and then off. RR can function with just a narrow and long paved area, a 'yard jockey' type tractor, and a large forklift to handle the bogies. So in theory, RR could be more suited for Origins-Destinations that wouldn't have the volumes for one of those big terminals.
As such, RR could be closer to the shipper/ receiver, thus reducing the dray distance and costs.
If containers could operate from low-budget glorified sidings with side-loaders as Kneiling advocated - then RR would have no advantage in any scenario.
(Maybe more later - other things happening right now that I need to attend to.)
- Paul North.
greyhoundsContainer movement, for any size customer, is simply a superior system.
Do you have any reliable figures for how much (total) intermodal originates in this country vs imports? percentage, dollars, tons, any would be fine.
Convicted OneConvicted One wrote the following post an hour ago: greyhounds This proposed TV ad is quite silly. It demonstrates that the proposer is basically clueless with regards to transportation economics (and advertising) You can say that if you want, but in a country where people will buy auto insurance from a lizard I have to disagree. Getting people's attention long enough to make your pitch IS advertising.
No, you've also got to get the right peoples' attention. People who are in a position to buy your product or service. TV ads for auto insurance work because seven out of eight people who drive a car buy auto insurance. (The other 1/8th drive illegally with no insurance.) That's a mass market.
People making decisions on routing freight do not constitute a mass market. There are very few such people. Communication to these few people can, and should, be done in a much more targeted way.
greyhoundsThere are very few such people.
We were talking about small businesses that might have a logistics need. To define a segment lets say " industrial users occupying 20,000-100,000 sq ft" fit that bill. There are hundreds of such operations in the major metropolitan areas. Paper products distributors, beer distributorships, jobbers, manufacturers reps, production shops, specialty manufacturers,...the list is long.
Owners of those small businesses watch television, and make everyday decisions for the companies they run. I believe buying a few spots on local tv IN TARGET MARKETS, before ground support starts knocking on doors... would be worthwhile.
Convicted One greyhounds There are very few such people. We were talking about small businesses that might have a logistics need. To define a segment lets say " industrial users occupying 20,000-100,000 sq ft" fit that bill. There are hundreds of such operations in the major metropolitan areas. Paper products distributors, beer distributorships, jobbers, manufacturers reps, production shops, specialty manufacturers,...the list is long. Owners of those small businesses watch television, and make everyday decisions for the companies they run. I believe buying a few spots on local tv IN TARGET MARKETS, before ground support starts knocking on doors... would be worthwhile.
greyhounds There are very few such people.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
I used to see C&O (Pere Marquette) roadrailers come into the C&NW station in Chicago after Chicagos Grand Central Station was closed. I believe they were for the postal service and were for Northern Michigan. Don't know where they were added/subtracted from the train. Had to be a pain to be the back up man when they backed in and or out of the station. So my questions are:
Do roadrailers have a tariff that is better (less costly to the shipper) than a container? My thought is that the costs are the controling factor in the railroads and the shippers decision making and not having access to these, I have difficulty making a judgement. Of course, costs may not be the driving factor as we know railroads sometimes make decisions on items such as "Not invented here" and "We don't want that kind of business" etc. So, bottom line, what are the pro's and con's of roadrailers vs TOFC or COFC?
Murphy SidingI disagree with your idea of TV marketing.
Well, at this late stage it's COMPLETELY unproductive to debate what never will be. So let's just agree to disagree.
LOL, never know, TV marketing could have been where NS missed the boat.
For the $10k such an add would cost to produce, and the few hundred dollars per spot to run on local channels seems to me like small potatoes in comparison to the magnitude of the total investment in equipment and facilities one would have to make just to be in this business.
If the end result was for just a few dozen entrepreneurs to respond to the door to door cold calls "oh yeah, I've seen your ads on TV, come on in" rather than "Beat it, I'm too busy to play choo-choo" then I think it would be money well spent.
But, it's all moot now.
Murphy Siding Convicted One greyhounds There are very few such people. We were talking about small businesses that might have a logistics need. To define a segment lets say " industrial users occupying 20,000-100,000 sq ft" fit that bill. There are hundreds of such operations in the major metropolitan areas. Paper products distributors, beer distributorships, jobbers, manufacturers reps, production shops, specialty manufacturers,...the list is long. Owners of those small businesses watch television, and make everyday decisions for the companies they run. I believe buying a few spots on local tv IN TARGET MARKETS, before ground support starts knocking on doors... would be worthwhile. I disagree with your idea of TV marketing. You say there are "there are hundreds of such operations in the major metropolitan areas". By definintion, hundreds would mean between 101 and 999. That means in the top 100 metropolitan areas in the US you would have between 10,100 and 99,900 prospective customers. Based on a population of 324,000,000, even the 99,000 number is a relatively tiny percentage. What kind of TV ad would a restaurante (or insurance company) utilize to appeal to 3/10ths of 1% of America? A specialized service offered to a narrow slice of customers begs for a specialized group to capitalize on the idea. They would go out and find the customers. I can't picture that a TV ad would make much difference to those particular buyers or sellers.
I disagree with your idea of TV marketing. You say there are "there are hundreds of such operations in the major metropolitan areas". By definintion, hundreds would mean between 101 and 999. That means in the top 100 metropolitan areas in the US you would have between 10,100 and 99,900 prospective customers. Based on a population of 324,000,000, even the 99,000 number is a relatively tiny percentage. What kind of TV ad would a restaurante (or insurance company) utilize to appeal to 3/10ths of 1% of America? A specialized service offered to a narrow slice of customers begs for a specialized group to capitalize on the idea. They would go out and find the customers. I can't picture that a TV ad would make much difference to those particular buyers or sellers.
GE has been running two series of ads featuring Owen, a newly hired college grad, to develop software that will "change the world." The target appears to be young people in computer science to get them to realize that GE is a cutting edge company. How large a target population is that? There are at least six different ads in this series.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Computer coding is a major area of focus in high school and college education these days, because the big push in almost every area of manufacturing is to develop Internet-enabled products - "The Internet of Things". In fact, many forward-thinking K-12 school districts are starting to teach coding at the elementary level. If you can code in some of the latest languages you can probably have your pick of jobs.
kgbw49 Computer coding is a major area of focus in high school and college education these days, because the big push in almost every area of manufacturing is to develop Internet-enabled products - "The Internet of Things". In fact, many forward-thinking K-12 school districts are starting to teach coding at the elementary level. If you can code in some of the latest languages you can probably have your pick of jobs.
Yes. But my point was that GE runs national TV advertisements for months for a relatively small number of jobs with them, at most a few thousand, probably far less. Convicted One was criticized for proposing advertising a more retail cusomer oriented freight service for a small number of potential cusomers. Yet that number would be far greater than GE's target audience.
schlimm kgbw49 Computer coding is a major area of focus in high school and college education these days, because the big push in almost every area of manufacturing is to develop Internet-enabled products - "The Internet of Things". In fact, many forward-thinking K-12 school districts are starting to teach coding at the elementary level. If you can code in some of the latest languages you can probably have your pick of jobs. Yes. But my point was that GE runs national TV advertisements for months for a relatively small number of jobs with them, at most a few thousand, probably far less. Convicted One was criticized for proposing advertising a more retail cusomer oriented freight service for a small number of potential cusomers. Yet that number would be far greater than GE's target audience.
Murphy SidingI wonder if you aren't mixing apples and oranges. The railroads are trying to sell a specific service to a narrow slice of consumers. GE seems to be trying to attract technical types into their business. It sure looks like GE would get better results focusing their attention on schools that graduate the types of talent they are seeking. The fact that GE is casting this far and wide might be because they want to project a certain image to their current and future stockholders?
As far as the first point goes, I'd say no. You said "between 10,100 and 99,900 prospective customers." for the business Convicted One was discussing. I doubt if GE needs more than 100-300 new employees in software design.
Second point: Yes, more to do with updating image.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-03-17/how-ge-exorcised-the-ghost-of-jack-welch-to-become-a-124-year-old-startup
Makes RoadRailers seem great:
http://www.nscorp.com/content/nscorp/en/shipping-options/intermodal/norfolk-southern-services/triple-crown.html
But the Sept. 2015 "restructuring":
http://www.nscorp.com/content/nscorp/en/news/norfolk-southernrestructurestriplecrownservicessubsidiary.html
I'd like to know what traffic there was - i.e., commodities - to justify running them to the Bethlehem, PA terminal (at Lehigh Valley Rail Management) for so many years. No auto plant around, but maybe it was for the reefer bsuiness ? I'll have to ask one of my colleagues next time I see him - he was a terminal manager there for a few years.
schlimmConvicted One was criticized for proposing advertising a more retail cusomer oriented freight service for a small number of potential cusomers
If what has been done in the past hasn't worked, then you try something that hasn't yet been done. It's not rocket surgery.
The ads I envisioned were not intended to get prospective customers to pick up the phone. Just to give prospects an idea of what to expect when the salesman eventually came knocking at the door. Those first 5 seconds can be brutal when the prospect has no idea what you are talking about and hasn't the time to spare to figure it out
Paul_D_North_JrFar be it from me to seriously disagree with greyhounds, - who has far more experience in these matters - but I do offer the following thoughts: No question that RR is practically incompatible with conventional freight or passenger operations. Don't know if it could work on the tail of an IM train - has that ever been tried ? One advantage that RR has over containers - as presently utilized - is that the RR does not require a huge terminal with monstrous equipment and large traffic volumes to actually be put into/ onto a train and then off. RR can function with just a narrow and long paved area, a 'yard jockey' type tractor, and a large forklift to handle the bogies. So in theory, RR could be more suited for Origins-Destinations that wouldn't have the volumes for one of those big terminals. As such, RR could be closer to the shipper/ receiver, thus reducing the dray distance and costs. If containers could operate from low-budget glorified sidings with side-loaders as Kneiling advocated - then RR would have no advantage in any scenario. (Maybe more later - other things happening right now that I need to attend to.) - Paul North.
Oh, go ahead and disagree with me. I'm not right all the time.
Actually, with RoadRailers, you don't need to pave anything. In years gone by I took visitors from foriegn lands to see a RoadRailer train assembled at the NS Chicago Triple Crown terminal in Calumet yard. I'd pick them up at their hotel, take them to a steak dinner, then show them the operation. Nothing was paved at Calumet. All that was done was dump some white rock over the rails. It worked fine.
RoadRailers were tested and approved by the FRA for movement at the rear of trains consisting of other intermodal equipment. But why mess with that when the same load could be moved in a container?
Most rail IM terminals today are large and expensive. But they don't have to be built that way. I've also seen an unpaved TOFC/COFC terminal. It was in Venice, IL and served the St. Louis market. A low cost COFC terminal at a place such as Storm Lake, IA (pork and turkey production) is certainly possible.
I can't see one advantage leading to the use of RoadRailers.
How many containers can be placed on a flat car? Seems like there would be a serious tare disadvantage for COFC compared to Triple Crown. The rail segment being the longer, I'd think that would more than compensate for the greater tare on the road segment.
Convicted OneSeems like there would be a serious tare disadvantage for COFC compared to Triple Crown. The rail segment being the longer, I'd think that would more than compensate for the greater tare on the road segment.
You are missing the point of which mode is mores sensative to the difference in tare. In highway mode the excess tare of Roadrailer equipment comes out of the load, which means it comes out of revenue per load.
In COFC the excess tare of the rail equipment is expressed in a bit higher axle loading, and a bit more fuel consumption. There is a calculabe cost to the fuel consumption but it is far, far less than the loss of revenue in the roadrailer case.
The bigger burden on COFC vs. TC is the high cost of terminals and the higher average cost of dray due to generally longer length of dray.
Mac
greyhoundsMost rail IM terminals today are large and expensive. But they don't have to be built that way. I've also seen an unpaved TOFC/COFC terminal. It was in Venice, IL and served the St. Louis market. A low cost COFC terminal at a place such as Storm Lake, IA (pork and turkey production) is certainly possible.
I agree. But why have the railroads reduced the number of those terminals so greatly? Centralization is efficient, of course, but at the expense of much longer drayage charges to and from potential sources and targets.
PNWRMNMwhich means it comes out of revenue per load.
Thanks, that's the best rationale I've seen yet.
schlimmI agree. But why have the railroads reduced the number of those terminals so greatly?
Have they? We have two new IM yards and the other two existing ones have expanded in the past 5 years. How many intermodal yards have closed (besides the triple crown yards, which were adjacent to IM yards in this neck of the woods)?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Convicted One How many containers can be placed on a flat car? Seems like there would be a serious tare disadvantage for COFC compared to Triple Crown. The rail segment being the longer, I'd think that would more than compensate for the greater tare on the road segment.
When I held a triple crown train, they were limited to 150 trailers per train. I don't know if any other places hauled longer strings, but there were a few cases of trailers being ripped apart, coming off their bogies, or rubber wheels dropping down on the main. Whether it was due to trailer fatigue, train handling, or a combination of both I don't know.
CSX acording to there rules circular charges 2,000.00 minimum fee to ship to a container yard that is not in a published lane. So Baltimore to Philly, Cleveland to Buffalo, Chicago to Indy will cost you way more to move a 20ft container then a independent trucker will charge. You could move a short haul for 500.00 or less if the trucker needs a backhaul bad enough.
Some major railroads' intermodal site maps:
https://www.up.com/customers/intermodal/intmap/index.htm
https://www.bnsf.com/customers/pdf/maps/small-intermodal-map.pdf
The BNSF map includes several other lines. As can be seen, there are long distances between many places and the closest IM facility.
schlimmThe BNSF map includes several other lines. As can be seen, there are long distances between many places and the closest IM facility.
But have any been closed?
Well this country still has large spaces of open unsettled land inthe middle and the BNSF go right through it
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