Casey Jones and emergency braking

[gabe]

I am sure most, if not all, of you are familiar with the legend of Casey Jones--an employee with my beloved Illinois Central by the way. My collision post has me thinking about the legend of Casey Jones.

The way the story has been conveyed to me, Casey Jones--when the collision became imminent--told his fireman to jump and stayed on the train to "save the lives of the rest of the passengers."

I have always wondered, what good or purpose did his staying with the engine rather than bailing serve? Does the engineer have to stay on the engine in order to keep the train in emergency? All of the stories that I have recently heard under the "collision post" would make me think not. Why did he stay on?

Do explain,

Gabe

[gabe]

Sadly, that explanation has occurred to me. I know he was written up a number of times for low-speed collisions, and from what I know about this one, it wouldn't have looked good. I just dont understand why he stayed on board.

In any event, his staying with the train did not help it come to a faster stop, right?

Gabe

[dharmon]

Well let's see..if f=ma, f = say 180 lbs x 60 mph or 88 ft/sec comes to 15840 ft/lbs/sec subtract that from 400 ton train x 88ft/sec = alot ........nope staying with it didn't help or hurt.......

[techguy57]

Thanks for the laugh, Dan[:D]

I knew that the tale had some actual truth to it but I didn't know about the low-speed collisions. Maybe its the romantic in me, (at which point my girlfriend would probably say what romantic), but I always thought he did it to be like a captain going down with his ship. That way he faced the fate of his decisions head on. Maybe he thought he'd be a hero. I guess you could argue that fame is part of infamy.

Really who knows, right?

On second thought, Mark is probably right. No more investigations

Mike

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by techguy57

Thanks for the laugh, Dan[:D]

I knew that the tale had some actual truth to it but I didn't know about the low-speed collisions. Maybe its the romantic in me, (at which point my girlfriend would probably say what romantic), but I always thought he did it to be like a captain going down with his ship. That way he faced the fate of his decisions head on. Maybe he thought he'd be a hero. I guess you could argue that fame is part of infamy.

Really who knows, right?

On second thought, Mark is probably right. No more investigations

Mike

I just no that if I ever get over my disdain of politics, join a political party, and run for office, I want to reincarnate the Illinois Central employee who released that story to the press and make him my spin doctor.

Gabe

[Randy Stahl]

Labor day 1950 saw a head on collision between two trains on the Milwaukee Rapid Transit , First one out the door was the motorman/ RR president. The motorman on the other train (LeRoy Equitz) stayed in his cab and held the sanders on to try slowing the thing down. LeRoy lost his left leg. I think it just looks bad when an engineer on a passenger train beats the paying passengers out the door.
Randy

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Randy Stahl

Labor day 1950 saw a head on collision between two trains on the Milwaukee Rapid Transit , First one out the door was the motorman/ RR president. The motorman on the other train (LeRoy Equitz) stayed in his cab and held the sanders on to try slowing the thing down. LeRoy lost his left leg. I think it just looks bad when an engineer on a passenger train beats the paying passengers out the door.
Randy

Kind of the whole Captain going down with his ship thing...

LC

[gbrewer]

The only advantage I can imagine to his staying rather than "joining the birds" was to keep whistling to warn of the impending collision.

[jeffhergert]

Did Casey tell Sim to jump? In "A Treasury of Railroad Folklore" there is an article about Sim Webb 36 years later. In the interview, Sim stated that the last thing Casey said to him was moments before about how well the engine was running. He never says that Casey told him to jump while he stayed.
Maybe the legend of Casey telling Sim to jump while he stayed was added to make the legend of a brave engineer more heroic.
As to why Casey didn't jump, maybe he ran out of time.
Using the information in the articles from the above book (I can't find my Trains issue with the Casey Jones article) Flagman Newberry was 3000ft north of the north switch. His torpedo was a few hundred feet (up to 500ft for a previous train) south of his position, say 2500 feet from the switch. Casey"s train was estimated to have past Newberry waving his lantern at 70MPH. From all accounts Newberry's signals weren't seen. The torpedo seems to be the first warning, about 25 seconds or so from the caboose and cars still on the main.
It's very early morning and Casey and Sim had doubled back on this run without rest. Possible Casey is dozing off, maybe why he didn't see Newberry. Allow a couple of seconds to become fully alert to what's going on. Close the throttle, place the automatic brake into emergency. A few more seconds gone. From stories I've read about other engineers from that general era, many times engineers would try to reverse their engines to help stop. More time gone moving the Johnson Bar and opening the throttle, probably also operating the sanders. In the time left perhaps he froze after doing all he could. Maybe upon getting close he could tell it was a caboose in front of him and he thought it safer trying to ride it out behind the boiler. (the two stories in the book differ. The story about Casey says the engine turned over, Sim in his interview says the engine didn't derail, but the cab was stripped off.) Perhaps he tried to get out, but got a piece of clothing caught and lost seconds trying to get free.
Who knows for sure why he stayed, my account is just speculation on my part. I think in that era when engineers were held in high esteem by the public, that word of an engineer staying on his engine and dying in the wreck would be thought of, rightly or wrongly as bravely doing his duty. Besides, the song wouldn't be the same if it went,
"Casey Jones, running too fast.
Casey Jones, not going to last.
Casey Jones, rode into the wreck,
too dumb to jump to save his own neck."
I'd rather think, rightly or wrongly, he stayed trying to do everything he could to stop short or lessen the impact.
Jeff

[Anonymous]

Okay..How do you jump from a moving train and keep most of you limbs?

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Clevelandrocks

Okay..How do you jump from a moving train and keep most of you limbs?

<cough> <cough> ....of all folks, I wouldn't have expected you to ask that question...

[mloik]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Randy Stahl

First one out the door was the motorman/ RR president.

Wait a minute...the motorman was also the RR president? Looks doubly bad for him to be the first out the door.

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by Clevelandrocks

Okay..How do you jump from a moving train and keep most of you limbs?

<cough> <cough> ....of all folks, I wouldn't have expected you to ask that question...

Pick me up off the floor. I now know how it feels to jump from a freight train as that is how hard I hit the ground after convulsing with laughter.

[Randy Stahl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mloik

QUOTE: Originally posted by Randy Stahl

First one out the door was the motorman/ RR president.

Wait a minute...the motorman was also the RR president? Looks doubly bad for him to be the first out the door.

The Motorman was Jay Maeder, president of Speedrail. contemporary news accounts blame Mr. Maeder for running a red Nachod block signal. Mr. Maeder was operating a fresh painted light weight interurban car that collided head on with a 2 car duplex heavy weight. Ten NMRA fantrip riders were killed just north of National ave. in Milwaukee.
Randy

[espeefoamer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

QUOTE: Originally posted by techguy57

Thanks for the laugh, Dan[:D]

I knew that the tale had some actual truth to it but I didn't know about the low-speed collisions. Maybe its the romantic in me, (at which point my girlfriend would probably say what romantic), but I always thought he did it to be like a captain going down with his ship. That way he faced the fate of his decisions head on. Maybe he thought he'd be a hero. I guess you could argue that fame is part of infamy.

Really who knows, right?

On second thought, Mark is probably right. No more investigations

Mike

I just no that if I ever get over my disdain of politics, join a political party, and run for office, I want to reincarnate the Illinois Central employee who released that story to the press and make him my spin doctor.

Gabe

The man who wrote the song and made Casey Jones famous was an engine wiper named Wallace Saunders.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mloik

QUOTE: Originally posted by Randy Stahl

First one out the door was the motorman/ RR president.

Wait a minute...the motorman was also the RR president? Looks doubly bad for him to be the first out the door.

A Fine and Outstanding tradition of the Bigwigs bailing first when it hits the fan dating back to J. Bruce Ismay, President of the White Star Line, which operated a couple of boats in that big pond between America and England. When one of his biggest rowboats struck an Iceburg, he gallantly and bravely slipped quietly into a lifeboat and let 1500 passengers die on a ship with insufficient lifeboats. A condition that HE helped pu***hru when others asked to provide enough boats for everyone, he argued that A: the ship was unsinkable, and B: it would clutter up the deck reserved for the millionaire first class passengers and he wouldnt stand for that!!!! Ahh, the Executive Decision!

[ValleyX]

I've always wondered why Casey didn't jump myself but I believe you might be right, Mark. In the thorough TRAINS article of a few years ago, it looked like Casey didn't have the cleanest record and he appeared to cut a lot of corners that got him called on the carpet more than once. I always thought he got away with it because it was the attitude of the times he lived in. However, it finally caught up with him as it surely caught up with many, many unnamed others of those days. You have to wonder how many high wheeling engineers of those days actually made it to a ripe old age.

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

QUOTE: Originally posted by mloik

QUOTE: Originally posted by Randy Stahl

First one out the door was the motorman/ RR president.

Wait a minute...the motorman was also the RR president? Looks doubly bad for him to be the first out the door.

A Fine and Outstanding tradition of the Bigwigs bailing first when it hits the fan dating back to J. Bruce Ismay, President of the White Star Line, which operated a couple of boats in that big pond between America and England. When one of his biggest rowboats struck an Iceburg, he gallantly and bravely slipped quietly into a lifeboat and let 1500 passengers die on a ship with insufficient lifeboats. A condition that HE helped pu***hru when others asked to provide enough boats for everyone, he argued that A: the ship was unsinkable, and B: it would clutter up the deck reserved for the millionaire first class passengers and he wouldnt stand for that!!!! Ahh, the Executive Decision!

I don't know why the heck I feel the need to stick up for poor, downtrodden, helpless executives and what not--maybe it goes back to Mark's recent reference to irrationality on the forum and this is my version of not jumping to avoid a collision--but:

Don't get me wrong, the above behavior of the executives it is not good. But, I think the only difference between a lug like myself and an executive is the executive has the ability to “sneak on the lifeboat while the ship is sinking.”

Really, how many of us wouldn't do the same thing given the opportunity? Some extraordinary people sacrifice themselves (like the designer of the Titanic) for the good of others; however the vast majority do not. Statistically, the amount of people on this forum who wouldn't make the same decision as the execs could fit in a large telephone booth.

I am not saying that makes it right, and I certainly agree with Randy's conclusion that it looks bad. But, I have to admit, there would be a voice in the back of my mind saying I would rather look bad and alive than good and dead. I hope I would do the right thing, but:

"I wouldn't be my life on it"

; -)

Perhaps I should have jumped off the train and not made that argument.

Gabe

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

QUOTE: Originally posted by mloik

QUOTE: Originally posted by Randy Stahl

First one out the door was the motorman/ RR president.

Wait a minute...the motorman was also the RR president? Looks doubly bad for him to be the first out the door.

A Fine and Outstanding tradition of the Bigwigs bailing first when it hits the fan dating back to J. Bruce Ismay, President of the White Star Line, which operated a couple of boats in that big pond between America and England. When one of his biggest rowboats struck an Iceburg, he gallantly and bravely slipped quietly into a lifeboat and let 1500 passengers die on a ship with insufficient lifeboats. A condition that HE helped pu***hru when others asked to provide enough boats for everyone, he argued that A: the ship was unsinkable, and B: it would clutter up the deck reserved for the millionaire first class passengers and he wouldnt stand for that!!!! Ahh, the Executive Decision!

I don't know why the heck I feel the need to stick up for poor, downtrodden, helpless executives and what not--maybe it goes back to Mark's recent reference to irrationality on the forum and this is my version of not jumping to avoid a collision--but:

Don't get me wrong, the above behavior of the executives it is not good. But, I think the only difference between a lug like myself and an executive is the executive has the ability to “sneak on the lifeboat while the ship is sinking.”

Really, how many of us wouldn't do the same thing given the opportunity? Some extraordinary people sacrifice themselves (like the designer of the Titanic) for the good of others; however the vast majority do not. Statistically, the amount of people on this forum who wouldn't make the same decision as the execs could fit in a large telephone booth.

I am not saying that makes it right, and I certainly agree with Randy's conclusion that it looks bad. But, I have to admit, there would be a voice in the back of my mind saying I would rather look bad and alive than good and dead. I hope I would do the right thing, but:

"I wouldn't be my life on it"

; -)

Perhaps I should have jumped off the train and not made that argument.

Gabe

Gabe while I see your point I should also point out that John Jacob Astor, then the richest man on Earth by far, was also on that little rowboat. He stayed behind, even cutting open his lifebelt to show his young wife what was in it (He also made sure she was on one of the lifeboats). Many millionaires and famous names went down with that ship, many refusing to leave before any other gentleman or lady. Ismay actually left his servant behind to die. He was a pariah for the rest of his life.

Would Bill Gates stay behind? Donald Trump? Rupert Murdock?

Ya have to wonder these days...

[gabe]

I don't disagree with either of you. My point is that I hope I would do the right thing in such a circumstances, but in all honesty, I can't say for certain I would and I am hesitant to fault others for not doing something I cannot say with certainty that I could do. In the same breath, I don't know that I wouldn't do the right thing either.

I hope that makes me an honest rather than a bad person. God knows, I do not. (double entendre intended)

Gabe

[ValleyX]

Actually, Mark, I still think that in his mind in those last few seconds, he must have thought he could have gotten stopped without much loss of life. He was the only one killed and, as you say, it's lost to the myths.

The only wreck of that nature that I'm real familiar with where everyone but one person jumped, all agreed that the last thing they saw was the engineer walking back inside and sitting down at the console. Thought he could get it stopped? What other answers are there?

[Anonymous]

Gabe, I think it goes back to simple human psychology. If you are a passenger on a plane or a train (or a ship, for that matter) you place a huge amount of trust in the people who are actually running the conveyance. I'd like to think (innocent that I am) that the people in charge will do everything they can a) to avoid the accident and b) make the consequences of the accident a lot less devastating.

We will never know what Casey Jones was thinking or doing at the end of his career. I'd like to think that he was wondering what was left undone that he could still do. The same hope applies to Captain Smith of RMS Titanic; I'd like to think he went down with the ship, preferably sipping the last cup of hot tea his steward could bring him, trying to figure out how best to refloat the ship.

My observation is that people in that kind of work- be it train engineer, pilot, or ship's master- fall back on their training and reflexes to fix the problem. I think they are probably too busy in those situations to give much thought to whether it's best to jump or stay. I would like to think- perhaps wrongly- that they place their trust in their machinery to get them through sticky situations. By the time they realize that the machinery won't save them, the situation has progressed to the point where they can't save themselves.

Erik

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by erikthered

Gabe, I think it goes back to simple human psychology. If you are a passenger on a plane or a train (or a ship, for that matter) you place a huge amount of trust in the people who are actually running the conveyance. I'd like to think (innocent that I am) that the people in charge will do everything they can a) to avoid the accident and b) make the consequences of the accident a lot less devastating.

We will never know what Casey Jones was thinking or doing at the end of his career. I'd like to think that he was wondering what was left undone that he could still do. The same hope applies to Captain Smith of RMS Titanic; I'd like to think he went down with the ship, preferably sipping the last cup of hot tea his steward could bring him, trying to figure out how best to refloat the ship.

My observation is that people in that kind of work- be it train engineer, pilot, or ship's master- fall back on their training and reflexes to fix the problem. I think they are probably too busy in those situations to give much thought to whether it's best to jump or stay. I would like to think- perhaps wrongly- that they place their trust in their machinery to get them through sticky situations. By the time they realize that the machinery won't save them, the situation has progressed to the point where they can't save themselves.

Erik

I think you hit it on the head. There is an inate instinct that tells you you can beat this thing. Even in ejection seat equipped aircraft, many pilots have ridden it in, trying to save the situation; becoming so focused on it that they literally forget to take the last chance out. There are a ton of films of mishaps where you look saying to yourself..punch out, punch out, but he doesn't, and plenty of times when somebody actually brings it in and when asked why they didn't bail out, the answer is that the thought never crossed their minds. Most of ejections occur when it's a split second decision, like cold cat shot off a carrier or when a situation has deteriorated to the point that there is no chance or safe of making a safe landing...fire, over water or bad guy land, etc....I wouidn't presume to know what Casey was thinking, but I'd be willing to bet that he thought he could do it, and when the realization hit that he couldn't, it was already too late. Most rational folks wouldn't intentionally drive it in to their death, if they knew it.