What happens when a train stalls?

[gabe]

You often hear of trains stalling on a hill. Is there a standard operating procedure that governs what happens next or are there a variety of practices?

Does the train back down the hill and then double it? If so, is this more hazardous--in terms of letting the train get away from you--than normally going down a hill? I remember hearing that one of the worst rail accidents ever in terms of fatalities was when a train stalled on a hill then backed down the hill too fast and smashed into a passenger train full of school children—how horrible.

Or does the train stop, cut the train in half and then proceed up the hill without going down it first? Would it be impossible for a train to do this from a dead stop?

Finally, are there usually sidings at the crest of a hill for a train to reassemble after it doubles a hill or must it go down the other side and then come back up again? If so, does this imply that the crest of the hill must be flat enough to accommodate the siding?

Gabe

These questions allow one to tell that I was raised in Illinois and don't have much experience with trains on a hill.

[Randy Stahl]

I have seen it dealt with in a variety of ways. First a full service set to secure the train . The dispatcher is gonna need to be called before the train is backed down so you must make sure that the train is going to stay put. I have seen the train split at this point and half of the train taken over the hill but this only works if there is someplace to put the cars. I have seen a train back down the hill, usually the RR calls a taxi to get the conductor to the rear of the train, especially if a trestle is in the way. I have seen another train donate 1 or 2 locomotives to help also. The WC had it's biggest hill near the yard so it was easy to get a yard crew to go shove the train. The best way is to be sure the train has the horsepower it needs.
Randy

[arbfbe]

In the days of SD40/sd40-2 and like locomotives, the first thing to do was to try to restart the train. Seems the older units of this era would sometimes not make back transition when slowing down account the grade and thus were not loading properly when the trains would stall. Just getting the train to a stop would reset the contactors and when you got moving again you might even make better speed than when getting onto the grade.

Sometimes you can back the train a very short distance to get the power back onto straight track while laying down sand and try to start from there. This works best on wet rail or when the locomotive wheel slip systems are not working properly.

Doubling a train over the hill involves tieing a LOT of handbrakes on the rear of the train that is left. You cannot take any more cars to the top of the hill than the siding at that location will hold. Sometimes that will be less than 1/2 the train length. You look at your wheel report to see where the tonnage is and decide from there where to make the cut.

[dwil89]

I have seen and witnessed this happen on the grade between Altoona and Johnstown, Pa. If the crew is unable to get the train restarted, they will usually call the dispatcher and the dispatcher will dispatch an extra SD40-2 helper set. It may couple onto the rear of the train, or couple ahead....A specific example I can discuss was last Summer. I was Railfanning from the Iron Bridge at Cassandra in Pennsylvania when I saw an eastbound Coaldrag's headlight appear from around the Curve 3 miles distant....it did not appear to be moving very fast, and I heard a radio transmission over my scanner from the head-end to the rear, that one of the lead units was down...The rear helpers indicated that they were running with ammeters in the red, and asked the headend if they would like to stop...They did, and got the second unit restarted, and tried again..moved about 500 yards, when the second unit went down again and they stalled again, They ended up calling the Pittsburgh-East Dispatcher, and got a head-end helper set to take it over the mountain to Altoona. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

A stall, aside from the silent muttering of the dispatcher, will probably also cause the crew to receive a visit from the trainmaster, road foreman of engines and assorted other supervisory types.

[dwil89]

Another interesting incident occurred a couple of years ago..on a Winter night. I was watching trains in Cresson, Pa from the Station Inn when a Eastbound Stacktrain passed on restricting signal due to traffic ahead...it stopped, and was drifting backwards several car lengths, then back forward, then backwards...Apparently it had stalled, and the crew was backing the train while laying sand,They notified the dispatcher of this, and meanwhile, they got a clear signal ahead....They laid down enough sand that they were able to get underway again,,,The dispatcher had a helper set on the way to assist in the event the train was unable to recover from the stall, Dave Williams

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

A stall, aside from the silent muttering of the dispatcher, will probably also cause the crew to receive a visit from the trainmaster, road foreman of engines and assorted other supervisory types.

So it is the crews' fault when a train stalls? That seems kind of harsh.

Gabe

[dwil89]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

A stall, aside from the silent muttering of the dispatcher, will probably also cause the crew to receive a visit from the trainmaster, road foreman of engines and assorted other supervisory types.

So it is the crews' fault when a train stalls? That seems kind of harsh.

Gabe

I wouldn't thnk the crews would be blamed in the incidents I cited at Cassandra and Cresson....in one, they lost a unit, in the other, it was a snowy night on a grade with a heavy train with a unfavorable signal....Dave Williams

[gabe]

Move the throttle to eight, wait?

This is something else I am having some questions about. I seem to remember something to the effect that using too much throttle will cause the engines to red line? Do I have this backwards?

Gabe

[gabe]

What is it about increased speed that causes the traction motors to cool down, or not heat up?

Gabe

[MP173]

Gabe:

As I have posted this fall, the CN has had a mess with the hill here in Valparaiso. They were falling down 2-3 times daily. These were primarily the BN or UP coal trains, powered by 2 locomotives.

Since then they have started doubling the hill or waiting for a second EB to pull up and assist it up the hill.

There are options the CN uses here, based on a stall:
1. Double the hill.
2. Power from a WB comes down to help...all power is on the head end and that doesnt seem to work reall well.
3. Power from a trailing train.

Last Wednsday, the day before Thanksgiving, an EB manifest stalled, due to lousy power. It took from 5PM until 10pm to clear up the mess.

My son and I watched an EB come up the hill at probably 1-2 mph. We walked faster. It was impressive.

Interesting about the STR's. This train was at that speed for at least 20 minutes.
Perhaps he had powered down.

ed

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

Gabe:

As I have posted this fall, the CN has had a mess with the hill here in Valparaiso. They were falling down 2-3 times daily. These were primarily the BN or UP coal trains, powered by 2 locomotives.

Since then they have started doubling the hill or waiting for a second EB to pull up and assist it up the hill.

There are options the CN uses here, based on a stall:
1. Double the hill.
2. Power from a WB comes down to help...all power is on the head end and that doesnt seem to work reall well.
3. Power from a trailing train.

Last Wednsday, the day before Thanksgiving, an EB manifest stalled, due to lousy power. It took from 5PM until 10pm to clear up the mess.

My son and I watched an EB come up the hill at probably 1-2 mph. We walked faster. It was impressive.

Interesting about the STR's. This train was at that speed for at least 20 minutes.
Perhaps he had powered down.

ed

It never ceases to amuse me that freight trains stall in (northern of all places) Indiana and that there was/is a 5.89 percent grade in Indiana (holy snikies).

Ed, one of these days I am going to have to make a trip up to valpo to watch it. I hope you will join me.

Gabe

[arbfbe]

The red zone or short time ratings have to do with the amperage going through the traction motor windings. The more amps, the more heat. The slower the motor rotation the higher the amps. If you increase the speed the amperage decreases as does the heat. Those BNSF 500 series Dash-8 40BWs and 100 and 300 GP60's of ATSF heritage almost gaurantee a stall if your train is loaded right to the limit. They are higher geared and will go into the short time ratings at about 25 mph. When that happens the computer will start to derate the unit causing the speed of the train to fall even more which causes the computer to derate the unit even more. The train inevitably stalls. If you have a choice of routes you have to work hard to convince that the hp figure for these high speed units is illusionary and you just can't keep pulling in the short time ratings like you can with an SD40-2.

The other saying you hear on the mountain is "Make it or break it."

Alan

[Anonymous]

Question: Is it really that much of a wasteful spending issue to simply overpower (provide more locomotives than the minimum recommended by the tonnage) all trains as a standard operating practice?

[MP173]

Gabe:

Only a 2.5 hour drive to mountain railroading!

Well, big hill railroadings. Actually, kinda small hill railroading. But, hey we are proud of it!

Let me know, I will show you all the sites!

ed

[rrnut282]

If your railroad has, at any one time, over one-hundred trains running and each locomotive costs almost $2 million, that's a lot of money tied up to be used only once in a while

[Anonymous]

I would establish a helper station like they had in the old days in the locations that are a problem. Yes engines are expensive... but I would buy and crew a few extra for the job of keeping those trains moving.

Everytime a train stalls... very costly.

I too am not surprised by the fact they call out the Bosses to swarm the incident scene. It is the same here in trucking when there is a problem, many bosses tend to descend onto the hapless driver (who better have a darn good reason...)

[Anonymous]

When the CNW ran things. When a Westbound would stall on the Blair hill,they would "cut" the train and take half of the Train to Kennard & run it in to Main 2 uncouple the Power then the power would run back up the hill to retreve the other half of the Train where they would reasemble it back at Kennard to continue back to Fremont.
But now that the UP runs things,when the same thing happends the Omaha Dispatcher would just tell them to just sit there a wait till a Westbound comes which could range from 30 minutes to more than an hour or more! Hiway 91 is the one that always gets blocked by a stalled train........
I realy feel sorry for the People who have to sit there and wait at that crossing just waiting for a Train. The TRUCKERS realy get PISSED OFF!

[dwil89]

Well, most of the stalls on the Altoona-Johnstown grade can be attributed to losing an engine or two, although wet and.or icy rails can contribute too. A third example of a recent stall was this Summer again at Cassandra, Pa. An Eastbound stacktrain with 3 units passed upgrade at a decent clip....Suddenly its speed started dropping until it was down to a crawl....just out of view, it stalled. The crew announced it on the radio....Apparently it was down to one engine out of three. after its second unit dropped out between Cassandra and Lilly. When the crew spoke with the dispatcher, they also told him that the train had come out of Chicago with one unit down, The Dispatcher replied...' And you're just telling me now?" The crew replied that they were advised of this when they took over the train at Conway, near Pittsburgh, and reported it to the dispatcher that was in the chair earlier in the day. At any rate, the crew was able to get the second unit restarted, and the train made it up out of scanner range. Stalls are not a rare occurance on this grade. The crews either recover, or get a helper set to get them on the move again. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[Anonymous]

BSNF Railfan,

Of course the Truckers get pissed off. For some of them it is that close on the schedules and they can lose thier jobs for being an hour late. For a poor few, they are already late and the stalled train simply threatens to excaberate the situation.

I have been lucky on stalled trains. For me with refidgerated down near the border with Mexico, I found that you better try to get on the American side of the railroad tracks before dusk. These crews sometime sleep right where the train is blocking all kinds of stuff at night. Luckily life is rather slow and locals dont seem to mind at all.

[zardoz]

The "move the throttle to eight and wait" method of operating might be true of today's dumbed-down locomotives with their fancy wheel-slip control systems and such, but in the Dash-2 (and before) days, there was a definite trick to getting a train of sufficient tonnage up a hill. Depending on the characteristics of a particular hill, the engineer had to employ various tricks to keep the train moving.

The main trick was to 'feather' the indepandent brake valve to help prevent the wheels from picking up. or to slow the spinning wheels enough so they grab the rail. It is a very delicate operation: too much pressure, and you hinder forward progress more than you are aiding it; too much pressure and the locomotives will slow enough that when released they will lurch slightly which can cause a break-in-two; too much pressure to stop a spin and the rest of the wheels slow down too much. Just the right amount of pressure restricts the amount of spinning a slipped wheel will do; it keeps the wheels clean from the rust, oil, and leaves that collect on the rails, and also keeps the wheels dry and warm, all of which aid traction.

The engineer not only had to be aware of the amount of slipping his lead locomotive was doing, but also be aware of what the other locomotives in his consist are doing. And the only way to do that was by the "seat-of-the-pants"--knowing exactly how things should feel when working properly, compared to how things are working at that time. To be able to feel your third locomotive slipping from the lead locomotive was something that takes considerable skill and experience.

I have been told on occassion by a dispatcher to "do what was neccessary" to get the train up a hill, including pushing the short-time ratings. I always advised dispatch of what would be needed in order to comply, just to CYA. There are other times when I called dispatch from the deisel shop advising that we would stall; usually they just tell me to go with what I have. Maybe I'm a bit petty, but when they told me to "go with it" and I would stall, I just couldn't help but calling dispatch and say, "I told you so".

I've been on trains where the lead sanders stopped working, and the brakeman would walk in front of the (barely) moving train and manually apply sand, using a cut-in-half water jug (we used to have gallon-sized jugs on the trains) scooping sand out of the box and climbing down the ladder to pour the sand on the rail. I even had to do that a few times when I was a brakeman. Talk about a slow trip!

West Allis hill in Milwaukee is the steepest grade on the U.P. Milwaukee Subdivision. It is not particularly steep (max 1%), or particularly long (only about 5 miles). But since it is the only real hill, trains are frequently given just enough power to make the hill. What the power desk (and some dispatchers) do not realize is the unique situation on that hill. There are numerous grade crossings on this hill, hence there is quite a bit of oil dripped onto the rails from cars. In any type of inclement weather, the oil and moisture create a very efficient rail lubricator; unfortunately, it lubricates the top of the rail, not the flanged sides. So the wheels spin quite readily when going over those crossings.

It is so much fun to stall on that hill, especially when the lead unit is sitting right on a crossing: people have yelled at us, threatened us, thrown things at us. But I do understand their frustration--the tracks cut the town in half.

[mudchicken]

.....visions of little copper beads in the ballast section and wheelburns![}:)][}:)][}:)]

(Suddenly unit reduction ain't all that cheap![swg])

[banghead][banghead][banghead]

[Tilden]

Last time I was in the Cajon an engine lost it's electronics. That stopped the train on the grade around Mormon Rocks. Let's see, what did the UP do? Nothing, for a long time! Appearently the crew first tried to bring the errant engine back on line. Then, hours later, they sent a team from Colton to repair it. When that failed they sent another Locomotive. This tied up that line for half a day or so.
I guess it just depends on what else is happening and the conditions system wide.

[wesper]

UP FRONT DISCLAIMER: I am by no means any sort of expert on train operations. Unlike many posters in this forum who have hands on experience, my information is by way of what I've read and tried to learn. I do have some finance background, so here goes.

If I understand John Armstrong in his classic "The Railroad - What It Is, What It Does", selection of the correct motive power for a given routing is critical to operating profitablility. To address Dave's earlier question, over powering would have the significant downside of reducing the total tonnage that the fleet can haul. That forces a difficult decision - either reduce the number and/or size of trains, which cuts into revenue, or increase the size of the motive fleet, which drives up costs, impacts the capital structure, and introduces a new set of maintenance issues.

This is no doubt a much oversimplified explanation. I always welcome any disagreement, enlightenment, or discussion.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

BSNF Railfan,

Of course the Truckers get pissed off. For some of them it is that close on the schedules and they can lose thier jobs for being an hour late. For a poor few, they are already late and the stalled train simply threatens to excaberate the situation.

I have been lucky on stalled trains. For me with refidgerated down near the border with Mexico, I found that you better try to get on the American side of the railroad tracks before dusk. These crews sometime sleep right where the train is blocking all kinds of stuff at night. Luckily life is rather slow and locals dont seem to mind at all.

I must have to agree with you there!,Thanks.

[kolechovski]

zardoz-threw things at you? What kind of things? Sharp things?...

It is well known that the public doesn't take well to this kind of thing, and they don't even know jack about it. In the words of the engineer who ran the rail-train that tied up crossings here for over an hour, "Hey, you think these people are pissed now, I could have run this train during the afternoon, and then you'd really have a bunch of irate people!" (The rail train came through the campus at night...a bunch of students who never sleep were delayed at the crossings...one impatient kid went under the wheels...

anyway, even when they did this at night, when very few people would be affected, none of the people complaining had ever thought of how much worse it would have been during the day. There would have been much more light, so they work train's crew could have seen where they were cutting easier, but they waited in the best interest of the public and still got the shaft. People just are so inconsiderate these days.

[BaltACD]

Every stall is a unique occurence.....as dictated by why the stall occured, what other traffic is operating, the physical characteristics of the territory involved.

The fundamental reason for all stalls is insufficient 'working' power for the tonnage on the territory.

Each terrirory has it's own 'Ruling Grade'; the worst grade on the terriroty. Trains are nominally powered to just have sufficient power to conquer the Ruling Grade. In some territories that Ruling Grade may 1%, 2% or more. In other territories the Ruling Grade may be 0.3% or less. Needless to say locomotives operating in the 0.3% territory are rated for much more tonnage than they are in the 2% territory.

The Locomotive Management personnel do their best to insure that a 5650 Ton train has power rated for 5700 Tons. Therefore there is very little margin of error for being able to get the train over the Ruling Grade. As Mark Hemphill has stated, normally the biggest cause of stalling is locomotive failure of one variety or another. In some cases the failed locomotive is able to be restarted and the engineer is able to get the train restarted. In other cases tje failed locomotive is administered the last rites and it is up to the Dispatchers to formulate other plans to get the train moved....Shove with a following train, have a train from the opposite direction cut power off and double head the train over the grade, have the train double the grade with the remaining power, set stone cold dead on the hill because it is a single engine train and no other trains are in the area to assist. Every situation is unique.

A second factor that is involved is getting the train to its destination terminal. While the train may stall on Grade A, to continue to destination it must also traverse Grades B, C and D, which could be more or less severe than Grade A. The immediate solution to get the train over Grade A may not be the long term solutuion to get the train over Grades B, C and D. The ideal solution for the trains trip (adding additional powr) is rarely at hand so 'stopgap' solutions must be applied until the REAL solution can be applied.

As the railroads apply the new high horsepower, high adhesion locomotives to trains, the options available to move stalled trains become increasingly harder to find; you don't stop the roads 'overpowered' Intermodal or Automotive trains to give power to the max tonnage train that has stalled and is wrecking the subdivision. The overpowered trains will assist the stalled train, if they are the only option available and the stalled train is blocking their route, otherwise they continue on on the 'high flying' route. So it then falls to all the other 'slop freight' trains to donate an engine to the stalled train....facts are most all 'slop freights' are also powered to the maximum tonnage.

Trains stalling will wreck your entire workday (or night).

[Anonymous]

Then give the dispatch the power to have either a pool of engines somewhere or actually make his or her opinions enforceable.

If a train needs three engines, I would add one more and have a extra nearby. To heck with the higher ups. If there is enough power at the dispatcher level there would never be a need to bother the bigger bosses.

The tracks do indeed stop with them.

[arbfbe]

Highiron,

It would be nice just to thumb your nose at your boss and add an insurance unit to add to each train in the mountains but you do not have access to any units to add. All those coming in on trains are due out on other trains. Borrowing one of them will likely lead to a domino effect meltdown further along the line. The boss you are mad at for shorting you the power is just as steamed at his boss who has shorted him. He is still steamed at the board of directors that only bout 75 units of the 95 that was recommended since they didn't want to be stuck with unproductive multimillion $$ units.

Older units do not pull as well as newer units but the tonnage rating tables for the units never seem to get adjusted to reflect that. That does not help when the power/tonnage ratio is tight.

Then there is the least expected. BN added PVC drain pipes to the sump drains on their SD40-2s to convey the spillage from the locomotive sumps to drop between the rails. (Don't worry, these units now have retention tanks and such environmental degradation has been stopped.) Sometimes these angular 3" PVC serer pipes were cut just a little too short. When there was a lot of oil in the sump from a tired engine and you were going up hill just fine, you might come to a right hand curve and the oil would be deposited directly on the top of the rail. The first time this happened it was perplexing. Then I figured I could just fill the lower end of the drain pipe with a wad of old wheel reports and paper towels and cap that off with some sort of plastic bag duct taped around the outside of the pipe to staunch the flow. Then I could back the train 5-10 car lengths with the MU sanders on and try again.

You have just got to love this job.

Alan

[Roger38]

A few years ago the UP had a stall and the 844 steamer with a few freight cars was the following train. With the DS permission they pushed the stalled train over the hill.