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Articulated diesel?

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Posted by carnej1 on Thursday, January 14, 2016 11:26 AM

From a purely operational perspective any M.U'd multi-locomotive consist could be considered "articulated" as it is a modular tractive effort producing system intended to pull(or push if the units are DPU's/Helpers) a train of unpowered vehicles with flexible linkages between the power units..

About the only modern idea I can think of that might meet the exact definition is this:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20110067390A1/en?q=mobile&q=diesel&q=power+system&q=separated&q=engine&q=exhaust&assignee=Clean+Rolling+Power%2c+LLC

The patent describes installing auxiliary cooling, exhaust after-treatment and waste heat recovery systems on a tender unit coupled to the locomotive and connected by flexible piping.

The industry doesn't seem to be showing any interest in the idea. Given the added complexity one can see why.......

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, January 14, 2016 7:12 AM

I'll throw out the following proposal to see if we can get some sort of consensus.  Since Wiener's definition of an articulated locomotive is overly broad when applied to diesels, an articulated diesel may be defined as either:  A. an inseparable jointed arrangement such as ATSF M-190, or B. a jointed arrangement in which tractive or buff forces are transmitted through the truck frames only such as a
Baldwin Centipede or the Baldwin experimentals like BLW 58501.

Note that this excludes multiple units linked by drawbars such as FT sets or cow-calf sets.  Drawbars were often replaced by couplers in many of such sets.

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Posted by DS4-4-1000 on Thursday, January 14, 2016 6:47 AM

Paul_D_North_Jr
 
Euclid
With a diesel locomotive, D-D trucks are likely to be too long to negotiate curves, so each truck must be articulated. . . . [snipped - PDN]

 

The 1960's "2 locomotives on 1 frame" period in the US did have these 2 EMD models with D-D trucks:

 

http://www.thedieselshop.us/Data%20EMD%20DD35A.HTML

http://www.thedieselshop.us/Data%20EMD%20DDA40X.HTML "Centennial"

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Don't forget that the Baldwin Centipedes had "D" trucks as did the Little Joe electrics and those two giant electrics that GN had.

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Posted by samfp1943 on Sunday, January 10, 2016 10:06 AM

It seems that the EMD TR1 [Cow&Calf]  has not been mentioned as a type in this Thread. 

ICRR had two pair, on Blomberg-style Trucks, used originally around Chicago and then St. Louis until retired.

UPRR had some that they referred to as 'Transfer Sets'  (total 8(?) were used as helpers on Cajon Pass, and were specially equipped for that service-see note on linked 'Railpictures' photo- @ http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=516942&nseq=1

ALCO had also made Cow&Calf models for Oliver Mining Co in Minnesota (see note) @"... Baldwin VO-1000, DS-4-4-10, S-12 and S-8 cow/calf locomotives compromised a majority of the mine railroad power, followed by EMD SW-9, SW-1200 and TR-6 cow/calf models and in third place were Alco S-2, RS-2 and S-6 cow/calf models..." 

from link @ http://www.missabe.com/cms/about-oliver

 

 


 

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Posted by dehusman on Sunday, January 10, 2016 8:51 AM

From a purely technical standpoint virtually every diesel bought by class 1 railroads ARE articulated engines already, the drivers are not rigidly attached to the frame of the locomotive and can rotate with respect to the frame.

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Posted by Euclid on Sunday, January 10, 2016 8:34 AM
Re- AT&SF locomotives #1158 and 1159:
Yes, the bellows connection to achieve a flexible boiler was indeed a failed experiment.  I understand that it failed because the inner “V” pockets of the bellows filled with packed cinders, preventing the “V” pockets to collapse when rounding curves.  So the resulting counterforce pulled the bellows ring rivets in two.
The bellows were primarily intended to be the mechanical joint for the boiler articulation.  Inside of the bellows was a form of ball-and-socket slip joint nearly as large as the boiler barrel.  That detail, I do not exactly understand.
In any case, I assume that this flexible bellows was just connecting an open fire throat, and that the fire tubes terminated in tube sheets on each side of the bellows.  So the joint was not under steam pressure.
I assume that the engine sets also were hinged in the same location as the boiler bellows.  What this would have achieved all together is reducing the lateral boiler displacement on curves that is a characteristic of typical articulated steam locomotives where the engines articulate, but the boiler does not. 
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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Sunday, January 10, 2016 5:25 AM

Euclid
With a diesel locomotive, D-D trucks are likely to be too long to negotiate curves, so each truck must be articulated. . . . [snipped - PDN]

The 1960's "2 locomotives on 1 frame" period in the US did have these 2 EMD models with D-D trucks:

http://www.thedieselshop.us/Data%20EMD%20DD35A.HTML

http://www.thedieselshop.us/Data%20EMD%20DDA40X.HTML "Centennial"

- Paul North. 

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
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Posted by mudchicken on Sunday, January 10, 2016 1:15 AM

Euclid
The AT&SF experimented with articulated steam locomotives where the two frames were rigidly attached to the boiler, but the boiler itself articulated by the hinge effect of a bellows connection in the boiler barrel.  See Figure 4 here:
 

bendy-boilers and the prairie mallets were a disaster. Thankfully the 4x and 5x bendy boilers never even got off the drawing board.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Saturday, January 9, 2016 10:22 PM

Your tractor example has its wheels fixed mounted, and turning is done at the pivot.  This is like the AT&SF flexible boiler experiment, except that the flexible boiler was not really a pivot.  It was a failed experiment, whereas the articulated locos with the articulation at the frames became the standard.  The articulated frame carried thru to early heavy electrics, and even a few Baldwin diesels.  The Balldwin centipede perhaps could have been fully (body) articulated since it had two diesel engines, and it had enough axels to support a split body.  However, if you look at the DD40X, you will see the small footprint of the 4 axel trucks at each end.  If you tried to balance each half of the articulated bodies over the (fixed mounted ?) truck, the ends of the loco would have large overhang that would work aginst smooth coupling force transfer.

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, January 9, 2016 10:02 AM

Long Island RR's "Mike and Ike" were a pair of single truck, drawbar connected locomotives (later separated) that were intended to operate as a single locomotive.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Saturday, January 9, 2016 7:07 AM

I think that most of us could agree to go with Lionel Wiener's definitions of articulated, semi-articulated and other types of flexible locomotives.  They don't apply very well to diesels but it gives us a starting point.

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Posted by DSchmitt on Saturday, January 9, 2016 1:11 AM

Boyd

Articulated, as in a pivot in the middle with a hinge like an International 3388 4wd tractor my family had on our farm before it was sold in 1981. That was my intent when I started this thread. 

 

Using that as the criteria, none of the locomotives mentioned so far except the expermental ATSF loco referenced by Euclid in his post and perhaps Garretts are articulated.

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Posted by Boyd on Saturday, January 9, 2016 12:56 AM

Articulated, as in a pivot in the middle with a hinge like an International 3388 4wd tractor my family had on our farm before it was sold in 1981. That was my intent when I started this thread. 

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Posted by DSchmitt on Saturday, January 9, 2016 12:49 AM

Articulated locomotive usually means a steam locomotive with one or more engine units which can move independent of the main frame.

Besides the types we usually think of (Mallet, Garrett, Meyer)  Heislers, Shays and Climaxes and some others can also be considerated articulated.

 

 

Actually in a broad sense any diesel locomotive with two or more trucks could be considered "articulated".  They consist of a power generator on one frame (analogous to a steam locomotive boiler) and units on separate frames that can move independent of the main frame (the trucks with traction motors) to convert the power to movement on the rails.

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, January 8, 2016 9:53 PM

Since a slug can stand alone when disconnected from its source of power, I do not think that you can consider one as part of an articulated locomotive. 

Do calves have separate controls? I imagine that they do so they, just as B units, can be moved about even though they do not have cabs. 

Beyer-Garratts are articulated: if you remove one engine, you have to prop the part that had rested on it up, just as is necessary with any articulated locomotive that is/was a familiar sight in this country.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Friday, January 8, 2016 9:27 PM

Speaking of something that can't work without the other, what about slugs?  I don't guess anyone thinks of them as articulated, but they are a flexable arrangement.

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Posted by tree68 on Friday, January 8, 2016 7:06 PM

ORNHOO
if the definition is one part cannot work without the other you might include the natural gas diesels with their CNG tenders, but then EVERY steam locomotive was articulated (except tanks, fireless, etc.)

Which is why I excluded steam locos, although the Garratt was, indeed, articulated.

Even though a steamer needs its tender (unless it's a tank engine), both the locomotive and the tender can be moved independently.  If the tender was actually supported by the locomotive (ie, no front trucks on the tender), it would be a different story.

Kinda like another thing I won't mention - I can't define it, but I know it when I see it...

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Posted by ORNHOO on Friday, January 8, 2016 6:19 PM
if the definition is one part cannot work without the other you might include the natural gas diesels with their CNG tenders, but then EVERY steam locomotive was articulated (except tanks, fireless, etc.)
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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, January 8, 2016 1:21 PM

Alco's C855 and GE's U50 (also GE Gas-Turbines for UP) had AAR type B trucks on span bolsters.

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Posted by wjstix on Friday, January 8, 2016 11:36 AM

MidlandMike

GM's early road diesel, the FT, was often built in A-B sets connected with drawbars.

 
Yes, as designed and first produced, there was no provision for couplers between the A and B units, only a drawbar. There wasn't even a door you could close between the two units. A railroad could buy an A-B or A-A set with drawbars. ATSF wanted the flexibility of having couplers at both ends, and EMD was able to rig up a coupler to fit in the space for the drawbar.
 
Many railroads bought, numbered, and operated F units in A-B-B-A sets, often with drawbars between the A and B units. The units were thought of as parts of one engine, and the four unit set had roughly the same horsepower as a typical Mallet articulated steam engine of the time.
 
BTW many early diesels were serviced in steam-era roundhouses, and an A-B set of F's would fit on a typical turntable, but not an A-B-A or A-B-B set.
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Posted by carnej1 on Friday, January 8, 2016 11:21 AM

Euclid
With a diesel locomotive, D-D trucks are likely to be too long to negotiate curves, so each truck must be articulated. One way is to use two B-B trucks with a span bolster, and then connect the center of the span bolster to the center bearing of the locomotive frame.  This is common on Brazilian locomotives such as shown here:
 

True , but note that one of the major Brazillian operators of Bolster connected BBBB trucked units also rosters SD45 variants with DD trucks so both designs work for them..

 

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Posted by Euclid on Friday, January 8, 2016 10:19 AM
With a diesel locomotive, D-D trucks are likely to be too long to negotiate curves, so each truck must be articulated. One way is to use two B-B trucks with a span bolster, and then connect the center of the span bolster to the center bearing of the locomotive frame.  This is common on Brazilian locomotives such as shown here:
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Posted by Euclid on Friday, January 8, 2016 10:09 AM
The AT&SF experimented with articulated steam locomotives where the two frames were rigidly attached to the boiler, but the boiler itself articulated by the hinge effect of a bellows connection in the boiler barrel.  See Figure 4 here:
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Posted by DS4-4-1000 on Friday, January 8, 2016 9:39 AM

Boyd
In the 70s as a child I thought that they could make a diesel/pneumatic locomotive.

That was already done in the 1920s.  in "Dawn of the Diesel Age" Kirkland shows photos of some of the alternate transmissions tried.  Pneumatic, direct gearbox (3 speed no less! keep your foot off of the clutch), siderods from the crankshaft and probably one or two I am forgetting.

 

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Posted by tree68 on Friday, January 8, 2016 9:02 AM

BaltACD

To me - drawbar connected and articulated are totally different animals.  Articulated is two carbodies sharing a common truck at their coupling - the original Zephyrs were articulated.

I was going to say that I'd take that a step further and say that articulated means two parts that must be flexible but cannot be separated without making both useless.  That would include consists where a truck is shared between two cars.  

But that would include today's intermodal "cars," which do just that.  I can't say that I've heard them called articulated.

I must exclude from that steam locomotives and tenders, and B units.  

I think most folks think of articulated as a something that could be one, but is made into two for sake of flexibility.

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, January 8, 2016 6:28 AM

Some of UP's M1000x sets had drawbars between units.  AT&SF 1 and 1A (original EMC Super Chief power) had couplers on both ends.

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Posted by ORNHOO on Friday, January 8, 2016 12:41 AM
Wasn't the SF-1 (1st motive power for the Super Chief) described as an articulated? I'm not sure if that means permanently coupled, drawbar, or what.
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Posted by Boyd on Wednesday, January 6, 2016 11:46 PM

This could be a future Trains article: early, oddball and articulated diesel locomotives. In the 70s as a child I thought that they could make a diesel/pneumatic locomotive. I was thinking of a lot of things as a child in the 70s: opposed piston engine,,, as in two Pistons per cylinder facing each other with two crankshafts linked via gears. My engineer brother looked it up and it turned out to be a Fairbanks Morse. 

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Posted by MidlandMike on Wednesday, January 6, 2016 10:05 PM

BaltACD

To me - drawbar connected and articulated are totally different animals.  Articulated is two carbodies sharing a common truck at their coupling - the original Zephyrs were articulated.

 

Articulation just means a flexible joint.  Car bodies sharing a common truck is one type of articulation.  Some steam engines and early electrics, as well as the Centipededs, had articulated frames.

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