So, suddenly I can't quote anymore. I click on it, and it ignores me. Sort of like some people I know.
So.
Yes. I have found out that salt water doesn't come up to Vancouver on the Columbia River. So, clearly, that bridge is not susceptable to salt water corrosion.
That would be the swing bridge that is older than the Portal Bridge.
So then the problem with the Portal Bridge is salt water corrosion. Right? I look forward to hearing more about that.
Ed
7j43k blue streak 1 MC: Yep 2 additional tracks across the Hackensack river cannot be denied. So arguments about not building the new bridge are moot. The bridge CAN be denied. Becaus they lied. And so I dance the poot. And hope someone brings a suit to investigate the galoot who stands to rake in the loot. Ed
blue streak 1 MC: Yep 2 additional tracks across the Hackensack river cannot be denied. So arguments about not building the new bridge are moot.
MC: Yep
2 additional tracks across the Hackensack river cannot be denied. So arguments about not building the new bridge are moot.
The bridge CAN be denied.
Becaus they lied.
And so I dance the poot.
And hope someone brings a suit
to investigate the galoot
who stands to rake in the loot.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
7j43k I'll note that SP&S also has a swing bridge across the Columbia at Vancouver (the American one). It is two years older than Portal. And I suspect that salt water comes up the River that far, though I am not sure. It's in good working order, and is opened far more often than Portal. Ed
I'll note that SP&S also has a swing bridge across the Columbia at Vancouver (the American one). It is two years older than Portal. And I suspect that salt water comes up the River that far, though I am not sure. It's in good working order, and is opened far more often than Portal.
The Columbia River has a strong flow, and salt water only gets about 30 miles upriver during low flow. It does not reach anywhere near Portland. There are 3 swing bridges on the former SP&S Astoria line, and the one closest to Astoria is probably within 30 miles of the ocean. Nevertheless, salinity currents follow the bottom of the river, and the fresh water flow tends to over-ride it.
Balt: Great Grandpa Grumbles can only see through the filter of a balance sheet. No sense having a war of wits with an unarmed individual. At some point PDN will drop in, but even he may not be able to get thru to GGG.
Since some are questioning the cost of a bridge over troubled waters; what about a hole in the ground?
B&P Tunnel replacement in Baltimore $60M for preliminary design work, $3.7B to $4.2B for construction.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-rail-tunnel-study-20151218-story.html
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I'd assume the sludge is coming from a sewage treatment plant. I know there's one in the Hackensack Meadows somewhere, not sure where though. The sludge is what's left over from the treatment process, and I believe it's barged off the Jersey coast and dumped far offshore where the ocean can take care of the dilution process.
Now, THIS makes some interesting reading. I had a quick skim. Oh, yes. I've got a couple of questions. I've got to read it more thoroughly:
http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/8000/8400/8417/SIR9701.pdf
RAILROAD SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
REPORT
DERAILMENT OF AMTRAK TRAIN NO. 12 AND
SIDESWIPE OF AMTRAK TRAIN NO. 79 ON PORTAL
BRIDGE NEAR SECAUCUS, NEW JERSEY,
NOVEMBER 23, 1996
Great minds and all.....
My idea was to use a conveyor belt.
I've gotta find out about this sludge stuff. Like, is there a sludge mine? Or is it somehow GROWING? And why right there?
Probably a lot cheaper in the long run to build a pipeline for the sludge to an area south of the bridge, eliminating barges entirely, and just welding the bridge permanently shut.
Why not? Especially if the barges are the only marine traffic that need an opening bridge.
blue streak 1 About shifts 8 hour shifts for bridge 4 bridge tenders, 4 bridge maintainers, 4 signal maintainers, 4 MOW persons. It add up. Not counting the various `management persons. May also occasionally need some CAT maintenance persons.
About shifts 8 hour shifts for bridge 4 bridge tenders, 4 bridge maintainers, 4 signal maintainers, 4 MOW persons. It add up. Not counting the various `management persons. May also occasionally need some CAT maintenance persons.
Four bridge tenders. For a bridge that's opened every 4 days. Oh, THAT is a sweet job.
And four signal maintainers? Full time signal maintainers for a bridge? That opens every 4 days? THAT may or may not be a sweet job. But I do wonder what they do. Maybe change lightbulbs in a signal somewhere. Or sand contacts.
Now bridge maintainers. Yup. Now, I'm assuming they get out there and sand the rust off and paint and all. 'Cause that's what I see guys doing on the Bay Bridge. THAT may not be a sweet job. Perhaps the bridge tenders who are waiting and waiting and waiting for a barge could come out and help sand and paint. Perhaps.
MOW? Four guys. Doing what?
1997 Report states ~300 openings had ~30 failures of various times. Reliability of just 90% bad.
The bridge is a swing bridge span of 300 feet. That gives a passage clearance of ~140 - 145 feet on each side of pivot. More likely of barge to strike present supports. New bridge appears to be 325 -350 clearances for channel straightening. Believe Coast guard now requires clearances of 200+ feet for new installations.
I'm pretty sure I read in the paper, just yesterday or so, that there was 70 bargeloads of sludge past the bridge plus 15 other openings a year. And we're spending 1.3 BILLION so the sludge can keep moving? If the sludge stayed where it was, maybe someone could build condos-with-a-view-of-New-York on top. Just a thought.
Anyway, if there was a potential problem of a barge striking the fenders, it just really can't cost 1.3 BILLION to replace them with something much more sturdy. Like concrete. And steel. Sorta like the new bridge, but much smaller. And cheaper.
The First bridge ( north bridge ) will enable 4 tracks to be placed in service from the North River portals thru Secacus to Newark Penn station. As plans now stand ( subject to change ) the Portal swing bridge will remain in service including outages until the south bridge with additional 2 - 3 tracks is built and put into service. The first new bridge will speed up those trains from present portals to Newark Penn that use the new high bridge. Then when new Gateway tunnels in service trains will not be restricted by 2 tracks across the Hasensack.
MidlandMike I assume they do extra maintenance, but it is still not going to totally mitigate the effcts of salt water getting on and into the bridge and its working parts.
I assume they do extra maintenance, but it is still not going to totally mitigate the effcts of salt water getting on and into the bridge and its working parts.
I agree. But while not total, there will be a certain amount of mitigation. We do not know the extent of that mitigation. Or the extent of degradation of the structure due to salt air/water.
A person could declare that the maintenance was done to perfection and blocked all salt damage. Or a person could say that salt has ravaged the bridge so much that it won't last the decade. Each could be true. Or it could be anywhere between those extremes. COULD. Not IS.
Norm48327 Firelock76 1.3 BILLION for a bridge? Don't forget they have to pay off the politicians. (Sarcasm intended.)
Firelock76 1.3 BILLION for a bridge?
Don't forget they have to pay off the politicians.
(Sarcasm intended.)
Being from New Jersey myself, left in 1987, I suspect they'd have to pay off the right "godfather" as well to ensure they don't have any union trouble.
A little more sarcasm intended, but remember, for something to be funny it has to contain a grain of truth.
Firelock761.3 BILLION for a bridge?
Norm
7j43k MidlandMike Salt water was mentioned by another poster. Are you dismissing salt waters effect on steel? Gosh, no. I am sure that maintenance on a bridge near salt water is (much) more extensive than one that is not. Ed
MidlandMike Salt water was mentioned by another poster. Are you dismissing salt waters effect on steel?
Salt water was mentioned by another poster. Are you dismissing salt waters effect on steel?
Gosh, no. I am sure that maintenance on a bridge near salt water is (much) more extensive than one that is not.
blue streak 1 Read somewhere that bridge requires 4 - 6 full time employees to maintain the bridge. so four four shifts = $ ?.
Read somewhere that bridge requires 4 - 6 full time employees to maintain the bridge. so four four shifts = $ ?.
What is "four four shifts"?
Six full time employees billed out at $50 per hour is $576,000 per year. If you divide 1.3 BILLION dollars by that number, you could hire the guys for 2257 years. Assuming no overtime.
Hopefully nothing will break that will require an obsolete part to be custom built.
I suppose I could divide the cost of the custom built part into 1.3 BILLION.
7j43k Firelock76 1.3 BILLION for a bridge? Maybe I'm naiive, but can anyone tell me just where that 1.3 billion is going to? That number's just a ballpark. I think it's a few million more. Ed
Firelock76 1.3 BILLION for a bridge? Maybe I'm naiive, but can anyone tell me just where that 1.3 billion is going to?
1.3 BILLION for a bridge? Maybe I'm naiive, but can anyone tell me just where that 1.3 billion is going to?
That number's just a ballpark. I think it's a few million more.
Prices vary between rural Washington state and the urban environs of New York City and the Northeast Corridor.
A big cost will be the columns to support the bridge.. Amtrak just got $30M + to do preliminary work to build the replacement bridge. That is just for access roads and clearing of debri near the construction site. Then casions will have to be sunk for many (?) feet to the bedrock. All this in a swamp land.
The accident when Amtrak went in the water at Portal was fortunatel that no one was killed. Hopefully nothing will break that will require an obsolete part to be custom built.
cx500 A couple of points. Those SP&S bridges may be not be directly comparable. In the early years of the 20th century train weights were increasing rapidly so a difference of only a few years will likely mean a more robust bridge design from the beginning. On the GN main line many bridges, from presumably the same general era, later were substantially strengthened by the addition of extra supports. An extreme example is the bridge at Rock Island WA that had new trusses tied to the outside of the original ones. I assume the floor system was upgraded at the same time. It can be done but takes a lot of labor, cheap then but very expensive now.
Secondly, over many years some of the steel members will lose section (become thinner). Microflexing at a connection can gradually cause wear, and of course surface corrosion is inevitable even if painted regularly. While each is minor individually, it all adds up. Steel composition and quality control at the mill was not as sophisticated back then either.
Swing spans present a unique challenge for the bridge engineer. When closed they are supported at both ends as well as in the middle. But when open the stresses are completely different as they become essentially a cantilever, supported only in the middle.
It's not just the bridge itself. Because the Portal Bridge can't be replaced in place the new approaches, trackage, electrification parts all have to be built in a nearly inaccessible location with punitive environmental restrictions. The original Portal bridge could be built from the railroad right of way with no traffic interference as the route to Penn Station didn't go anywhere in 1907. The current Portal Bridge sees several hundred movements per day.
Look, after 150 years of railroad building and engineering in this country there should be no mysteries about putting up a bridge. Any well-trained engineer at this late date should be able to come up with a replacement design with his eyes closed. Environmental impact studies? There's been a rail line and bridge there for 100 years, what else is there to know? Matierials studies? If they don't know the strengths of the required matierials by now then someone's slept through classes.
Then, I'm no engineer, so if someone could explain it to me I'll certainly listen.
7j43k .................................... .......... Ed
..........
7j43k MidlandMike 7j43k ... But, so far, all I've heard is "It's old!", as if that's a reason to replace the bridge. It is not. BNSF, for example, is still using bridges along the Columbia River that were installed when SP&S was first built--about 100 years ago. ... The Columbia River is fresh water, well above where it enters the ocean. Yes. But the claims against a hundred year old bridge were based on multiple stress cycles and age fatigue. And I supplied an example of such bridges that are still in service. Ed
MidlandMike 7j43k ... But, so far, all I've heard is "It's old!", as if that's a reason to replace the bridge. It is not. BNSF, for example, is still using bridges along the Columbia River that were installed when SP&S was first built--about 100 years ago. ... The Columbia River is fresh water, well above where it enters the ocean.
7j43k ... But, so far, all I've heard is "It's old!", as if that's a reason to replace the bridge. It is not. BNSF, for example, is still using bridges along the Columbia River that were installed when SP&S was first built--about 100 years ago. ...
...
But, so far, all I've heard is "It's old!", as if that's a reason to replace the bridge. It is not. BNSF, for example, is still using bridges along the Columbia River that were installed when SP&S was first built--about 100 years ago. ...
The Columbia River is fresh water, well above where it enters the ocean.
Yes. But the claims against a hundred year old bridge were based on multiple stress cycles and age fatigue. And I supplied an example of such bridges that are still in service.
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