Catskill Mountain RR to Be Partially Torn Up

[MidlandMike]

As reported in NewsWire, parts of the CMR will retain Rails-With-Trail, while parts will be converted to a trail, especially in the Ashokan Reservoir area.  Apparently CMR will take the compromise.  More details in local newspaper:

http://www.dailyfreeman.com/general-news/20151215/ulster-county-lawmakers-amend-trail-policy-to-allow-tourist-trains

 

[tree68]

I'm betting that the county executive is currently biting his tongue.  He's been pushing very hard to pull the entire rail line up, and I doubt he's very happy with the compromise, despite his comment in the article.

[daveklepper]

I, for one, am very unhappy about Lake Placid loosing a rail connection with the continental system.

[tree68]

daveklepper

I, for one, am very unhappy about Lake Placid loosing a rail connection with the continental system. 

That battle is not completely over.  The state agreed to allow ASRR to operate at Lake Placid at least another year, which gives time to do more lobbying and perhaps reverse the decision.

The true motives of the "trail advocates" are starting to come out, and they have nothing to do with a trail...

[MidlandMike]

If the Catskill compromise model was used in the Adirondack case, they might make the existing Lake Placid-Saranac segment Rails-With-Trails, while converting Saranac-Tupper Lake to trail only.  Nevertheless the Catskill agreement states that if a segment is intended for Rails-With-Trails, and it turns that there is only room practically for one, then trails wins.  As I remember on the Lake Placid-Saranac line, there are spots where the rails take up all of a narrow fill thru swamps.

[daveklepper]

Cannot added fill material be used to widen the fills?

Is not this a worthwhile investment for State money?

CAnnot all passenger-minded raiifans living in New York State write the Governor to insist that the rail connection to Lake Placid be retained?  They should outnumber the trail advocates.

[tree68]

daveklepper

Cannot all passenger-minded raiifans living in New York State write the Governor to insist that the rail connection to Lake Placid be retained?  They should outnumber the trail advocates.

Believe me, there have been plenty of campaigns along that line - petitions, postcards, you name it.

Unfortunately, there's a fellow or two with more money than sense who have been funding the "trail" campaign, including numerous campaign contributions.  So far, no one on the rail side has been willing to put that kind of money into it, and the railroad certainly can't fund it.

[tree68]

daveklepper

Cannot added fill material be used to widen the fills? Is not this a worthwhile investment for State money?

It would be a worthwhile investment.  It would benefit a good many people.

However, it's becoming obvious that the "trail advocates" don't want a trail at all - they just want everyone out of "their" woods.

[mudchicken]

Getting the Army Corps to sign off on a 404b permit and the State to come up with a mitigation plan would not be cheap. As it is, railroad coexisting with trail is a gut-check with some of us, knowing how stupid some people are. If the insurance people get involved.....

[daveklepper]

Of  courae not, but still wrthwhile.  Certainly a continuous fence would be necessary with spaced warning signs.   only designated crossings with flashing lights at each.

[mudchicken]

Fences are relatively futile to determined stupid people and their equally determined lawyer buddies.In addition, won't stop most things falling off a moving railcar.

AREMA tried several years back to write a policy statement about trails and railroads co-existing.  ... Wound up being a non-issue(not successful) after days of spirited debate. The ones saying it works usually have a one sided agenda or aren't looking at the liability side of the equation.

ps - If it's not livestock related, the railroad isn't gonna maintain the fence which means the financially responsible* trail agency is supposed to maintain the fence which means it won't be maintained in the real world.

*constantly broke

[tree68]

daveklepper

Of  courae not, but still wrthwhile.  Certainly a continuous fence would be necessary with spaced warning signs.   only designated crossings with flashing lights at each.

We're talking forest here - the critters have to have a way across, too.

Lights?  We're talking forest here, the Adirondacks, in fact.  You wouldn't believe what it would (administratively) take to run a pole line - and in some places it simply isn't going to happen.

MC is right about maintenance - although the railroad (as a tenant on the corridor) would probably be given the task.

[Wizlish]

daveklepper

Cannot added fill material be used to widen the fills?

There are at least two problems with this.

First, there are a LOT of places that would require additional fill.  Any added material would have to settle in place and then be graded, probably more than once.  Mudchicken et al. can provide an estimate of the cost, but it isn't something that the state of New York could possibly justify for the mere purpose of having a full trail parallel to the track in the affected area.

Second, even the state would have problems conducting major work in the Adirondack park area.  This is a designated wilderness area with only a small easement for the track.  There are powerful groups who will resist even slight encroachment into the reserved area, to say nothing of the environmental insults from the construction (even if the fill is supplied from the railroad by something like side-dump cars and carefully moved to form the trail bed).

The thing I'm looking forward to is how much the 'converted' trail turns out to cost, how the snowmobilers like dealing with hikers in the winter, whether the local communities see an increase in their businesses ... and whether the hikers and bikers like the prices they will be charged...  this might be the best possible thing for the rest of the Adirondack Scenic operations in the long run!

[Railvt]

This is another sad example of the abuse of the "Rails to Trails" process in New York state. Following is a copy of tetimony I submitted to NYDOT on the even more atrocious plan to convert the section north of Tupper Lake of the Utica-Lake Placid former New York Central Adirondack line to a snowmobile trail.

This was intended for what hd been advertised as a formal public hearing in Tupper Lake in November of last year. But in hindsight it's clear the anti-rail fix from the Cuomo Administration was already in. No testimony was taken. Instead attendees were encouraged to "chat" (their words) with NYDOT staff at a series of "Action Stations" set up round the entry lobby of the Wild Center (the venue), which were simply tables with maps. No contrasting views on either side were publically heard, but we got a preview in a preliminary sl1de show (no comments or questions allowed) of what proved to be the final outcome--retain rail to Tupper Lake (40 miles short of the only real draws on the line--Saranac Lake and Lake Placid) and convert the north end for exclusive trail use.

Never the less I stand by our observations and the attempt to get the NYDOT and trail folks to consider the value of the organized tour business which can not use any trail even if it wanted to (due if for no other reason to the age/physical abilities of most tour clients). New York is throwing away a proven asset in favor of ludicrous specualtions about the numbers of likely trail users. Alas.

We have been bringing business to the Catskills to ride the Catskill Mountain RR (at least until its only scenic line segment from Mount Tremper to Phoenicia was destroyed in 2011 by hurricane flooding only finally repaired late this year) and to the much longer Delaware and Ulster RR on the same former U&D/NYC line for over 20 years. The economic impact figures would be very similar.

In any event here's what we submitted. I once supported the rails to trails idea, when they seemed to honor their original promise never to push to eliminate an intact rail line in favor of a trail. In light of the most egregious recent examples of their hypocracy in the northeast alone, the attempt to force the abandonment of the Western Maryland Scenicc RR (where for once shared use prevailed as the ultimate outcome), the Catskill Mountain RR and most tragically the Adiromdack Scenic RR I realize I was a fool.

RAIL TRAVEL ADVENTURES

 

This testimony is to strongly support the retention of the Adirondack Rail Corridor to Lake Placid for rail use, with shared trail usage where safety permits.

The removal of the track ends forever any possible use of the corridor for real and expanded public transport. The railway heroically served the 1980 Winter Games, when the roads were virtually paralyzed. Over 70,000 passengers now ride each year on the trains from Utica to Thendara/Big Moose and between Saranac Lake and Lake Placid. Over a 1.5 million passengers have ridden since service resumed in 1992.

 

The focus of this hearing is the question of continuing to implement the management plan for the restoration as an active rail line of the segment from Tupper Lake north to Saranac Lake. This allows regular train service to operate from Tupper Lake to Lake Placid. Fixing the track from Tupper Lake to Saranac Lake reopens what will be the most beautiful portion of the entire line. The restored segment connects tourist centers like the Olympic complex, the new Saranac Carousel and the Wild Center. If the final gap to Big Moose from Tupper Lake is reopened, the potential for ridership is truly extraordinary. Even as two disconnected segments the Adirondack Scenic RR has become one of the best-used tourist railways in the country.

 

The repair of the full length of the line restores a remarkably useful route into the heart of the high peaks. Direct service from New York City to Lake Placid could resume. Pullman Rail has active plans for just such a service, and the Amtrak/Adirondack Scenic RR connection at Utica is already active. But it will be very difficult to raise the money to complete repairs until the Adirondack Scenic Railroad is unambiguously confirmed in its right to use the line. The state of New York needs to close this discussion now with a clear endorsement of future rail operation over the entire corridor. In particular the removal of the track from Tupper Lake to Lake Placid would be a dreadful mistake, as it would remove the two most important population and tourist centers on the line.

 

My company has been bringing groups to the Lake Placid and Thendara regions to ride the railway for over 25 years. We typically stay five nights along the railway in the Adirondack Park, bringing 40-45 passengers on each tour, while buying 20-25 hotel rooms each night, plus meals, sightseeing and bus charters from New York state companies. In the absence of the railway none of this would have occurred.

As an example, our October 2012 and 2014 tours stayed two nights in Lake Placid, and three nights in the Blue Mountain Lake. 80 passengers were accommodated between the two trips. We purchased over 20 rooms each night at the Golden Arrow Lakeside Resort in Lake Placid and at the Minnowbrook "great camp" in Blue Mountain Lake, while visiting the Olympics attractions, High Falls Gorge, the Wild Center, Sagamore, and the Adirondack Museum, cruising on Racquette Lake and buying meals from area restaurants. We rode the Adirondack Scenic RR at both Lake Placid (to Saranac Lake) and at Thendara (to Otter Lake) and the new Saratoga and North Creek RR between its namesake towns. We used the state-supported Amtrak “Adirondack” train from Albany to Plattsburgh enroute to the Park.

Revenue from just these two tours specifically directed to Adirondack businesses was over $124,000. This does not include client spending for drinks, souvenirs and meals not otherwise included in the package. This is an example of just one program from one company.

There are countless other destinations we could visit if New York made the Adirondacks inaccessible for railway tourism. To repeat, in the absence of the railway none of this income to local Adirondack area suppliers would have occurred.

 

The advocates for trail use only of the corridor present a hypocritical and grossly selfish proposal. Claims that hundreds of thousands of potential hikers/snowmobilers would be drawn to a rail trail on the corridor verge on the ludicrous. The railway corridor is already open to snowmobilers each winter. The state already offers a vast network of wonderful hiking trails in the Adirondacks. By comparison the railway corridor will be for hikers a long, flat, and generally uninteresting walk through the woods. The train’s ridership is real and growing. Trail use is entirely speculative.

 

And of course the corridor can absolutely be jointly used for both rail service and as a trail. The roadbed is wide enough to accommodate joint train and trail use. Indeed this is obvious given the existing snowmobile use each winter. Given the frequency of future scheduled trains, (2-3 per day), even bridges could be shared, as they already are during snowmobile/ski season. There are many examples of shared rail/trails in both the USA and the U.K. A good example is the Cumberland, MD Western Maryland Scenic Railway/Trail.

The claim that reuse of the in-place rails would pay for the trail is completely false. The rails are very old, are made to a design unique to the former New York Central Railroad that was not used elsewhere in the USA and would be valuable only to be melted down as scrap. No serious market exists other than as low-value scrap for such elderly rail.

But most of the rails can continue to be used for train traffic. What this line most needs is the immediate replacement of ties and the leveling/surfacing of the roadbed, plus repairs to bridges that would also be required for trail use. This work has already been done from Utica to Big Moose and from Saranac Lake to Lake Placid. It is ridiculous to squander this work when the line is in active and growing use, serving over 77,000 visitors in 2012 alone!  

As the efforts of the Saratoga and North Creek RR to revive freight service northwest of North Creek have shown, there could be freight use of the corridor again as well. Immediately fuel-oil, road salt and timber could/should be moved by train if the tracks were open through to Lake Placid. But if the rails are removed this will never happen. Everything will be trucked, at higher cost. With the certainty of global warming it is madness to remove an intact railway (needing only quite easy repairs) in favor of more auto usage to bring people to a completely unneeded "trail", when snowmobilers already use the route for the half the year. Instead the railway should be used to bring in both summer hikers and winter sports fans!

The Adirondack Rail Corridor must remain what it was built to be, a railway. Within reason it can be shared with walkers and responsible snowmobilers, but it must be retained as a rail transportation asset. I deeply appreciate the opportunity to share these remarks.

Carl Fowler, President, Rail Travel Adventures

 

 

 

[mudchicken]

"This is another sad example of the abuse of the "Rails to Trails" process in New York state. Following is a copy of tetimony I submitted to NYDOT on the even more atrocious plan to convert the section north of Tupper Lake of the Utica-Lake Placid former New York Central Adirondack line to a snowmobile trail." - Rail Travel Adventures

 

Let's be clear: This portion of railroad NEVER was part of the federal "rails to trails" NITU-CITU process. The state bought the line(s) because of the formation of Conrail and the fact that these lines were purposely left out of Conrail by USRA. (Plus the Winter Olympics) This is solely a New York State issue.

The New York & Saratoga survives today because the locals there, arrogant and stupid, failed to do their due-dilligence homework AND made some really bad assumptions. (The line was never abandoned at the federal level, because of that it is still there today. The locals just ass-u-me d it was - Doesn't work with railroads.)

If and when the rail comes up, the state is about to get itself into one heckuva jackpot that, from the sounds of it, are going to eat their shorts and create consequences that many of the antagonists are going to be shocked over.

Really ought to be called a New York State asset management blunder and leave the federal conotations out of it.

[Railvt]

Mudchicken:

I've never said any of this was a Federal Rails to Trails issue. The Adirondack Scenic RR has been under systematic attack by a small coterie of snowmobile advocates (headed by some local snow machine rental dealers) claiming to be trail advocates despite already having full use of the line every winter and by their foolish followers who can't undertand that as a trail the line is of practically no new use.

NYDOT and the New York State Dept of Enviornmental Conservation leased the line for retained rail use and the rail operator has carried well over 1,000,00 riders since service restarted in the early 1990s. Yet now the trail advocates are getting the line lifted north of Tupper Lake--even the active and fully renovated section between Saranac Lake and Lake Placid. And thedy by no means have abandoned their efforts to force closure south of Tupper Lake as well.

In the case of the Catskill Mountain RR, nature has been unkind in beseiging the line with washouts west of the Ashokan Resevoir--yet service has been provided successfully for 24 years with increasing ridership, just as the the county began to force eviction of the CMRR operating group by withholding Federal grants designated for post hurricane repairs--the better to undermine the CMRR to "prove" it was not needed. Ultimately the CMRR did this work at their own expense, despite the threat of eviction, along the most scenic stretch following the Espous Creek.

As a trail this "settlement", tearing up the central part of the line inside the Ashokan Resevoir reservation, will be a boring walk through the woods with no water views. At least a rail line will survive from Kingston to the east end of the resevoir and along the beautiful Mount Tremper-Phoenicia stretch. But severing the middle gurantees no future use as a real rail line and creates only a level boring trail through a tunnel of trees.

But none of that addresses the basic Rails to Trails issue. The RTT promise was to preserve rail rights of way AFTER abandonment--in the near term for public enjoyment by walkers, bikers and (in a few cases) snowmobilers--but always on the understanding the lines would revert to rail use if needed. Alas this promise has far too often not been kept. Once a trail always a trail and the current RTT advocates can not grasp the concept/evocacy of rail-banking--leaving the track in place.

The opening gun in recent years in the northeast in the RTT's escalating failure to keep to the no forced removal promise was the attempt by advocates of the trail over the Alleghenies on the former Western Maryland main line to force the lifting of the Cumberland-Frostburg well-used steam powered Western Maryland Scenic RR. This despite the fact that the formerly double-track WMSR right of way was wide enouogh to accommodate both uses.

Here too, as the the Adirondacks, ludicrous claims of hundres of thousands of new visitors per year were made regarding the number of hikers who would somehow surface to replace exixsting active rail passenger riders, if only the tracks were removed. Unlike the proposal north of Tupper Lake in New York to lift the rails rather than share the line, in the end sanity prevailed in Maryland and shared useage was created.

In New York state the "Trail Advocates" would not hear of this in the Adirondacks or the Caskills, even though in both cases that shared outcome was not only possible but actual maps/designs exixted to show how it could be done. Instead the controversy was dragged out, the operators ability to raise funds for renovations was compromised by the lack of a clear future, and the public hearing process was at best poisoned by "reviewers" whose decisions had already been reached.

What has ultimately happened in the Catskills is absolifelong better than the total rail removal as proposed by the Ulster County Executive Michael Hein. But the track-removal along the Ashokan Resevoir is unneeded to allow access to walkers who already use this stretch. And only because of a huge outcry and a true "saved by the bell" result was even this compromise reached.

Despite the promise of continued rail access, the CMRR lease expires next year. Only then will we discover, in the process of finding "new" rail operators, how sincere Mr. Hein is in claiming to allow continued rail use. I fear the CMRR will be found "unqualified" to continue and no other viable operator will come forward in the face of so much past controversy. We'll see later.

The same threat exists in the Adirondacks as well. The Adirondack Scenic RR has created one of the most remarkable success stories in preseravation history, with as I noted, over a million riders--yet NYDOT has given them only one more year to run from Lake Placid to Saranac Lake and is preparing to put their overall access to even the surviving line below Tupper Lake up to a new round of bidding.

After next year the line north of Tupper Lake will be lifted, resulting in New York having to repay the Federal government over $4,000,000 in Federal grants used to rehab the Saranc Lake-Lake Placid strech. And this is in favor of snowmobilers  who already can use the line from November to April of every year. This is a travesty of the "Rails to Trails" saga.

By the by, none of these lines are your putative "New York and Saratoga". Amtrak runs every day between those points on Metro North/Amtrak/CSX/CP, the Saratoga-North Creek original Adirondack RR line is not a part of this controversy and runs regular passenger (and infrequent freight) as the Saratoga and North Creek RR (Iowa Pacific) under lease from its county owners. It is NOT the NY&S, because there is no such line.

Carl Fowler

 

 

[schlimm]

mudchicken

"This is another sad example of the abuse of the "Rails to Trails" process in New York state. Following is a copy of tetimony I submitted to NYDOT on the even more atrocious plan to convert the section north of Tupper Lake of the Utica-Lake Placid former New York Central Adirondack line to a snowmobile trail." - Rail Travel Adventures

 

Let's be clear: This portion of railroad NEVER was part of the federal "rails to trails" NITU-CITU process. The state bought the line(s) because of the formation of Conrail and the fact that these lines were purposely left out of Conrail by USRA. (Plus the Winter Olympics) This is solely a New York State issue.

The New York & Saratoga survives today because the locals there, arrogant and stupid, failed to do their due-dilligence homework AND made some really bad assumptions.

If and when the rail comes up, the state is about to get itself into one heckuva jackpot that, from the sounds of it, are going to eat their shorts and create consequences that many of the antagonists are going to be shocked over.

Really ought to be called a New York State asset management blunder and leave the federal conotations out of it.

 

Thanks MC, for some factual information on this inflamed topic.

[mudchicken]

Railvt: Be carefull with the use of "Rails-to-Trails". Find a different term for the NY issue that does not imply federal association, especially with caps in the term.

As has been seen in other threads on this forum, the association is often in error and creates all kinds of unfair or misguided assumptions, including related threads for what goes on here.  From one who deals with railroad corridors for a living, the RTT term along with adverse possession, easements, condemnation, prescription, land grants, charters and other concepts is not understood correctly by the general public. It gets really expensive to undo the damage created by some of the dimestore lawyers and legends in their own minds type people.

I'm not thrilled with what's going on either, but the bad or faulty arguments don't help the cause. (How much a ton do you think scrap rail goes for these days? My suspicion is that you are probably low to very low with your numbers. 105# section and the related OTM has some serious worth.)

[MidlandMike]

Mention of the Saratoga & North Creek brings up another potential problem.  Iowa Pacific says they have lost over $1 million on their tourist operation in the 4 years they operated it.  They are hoping to eliminate operating losses with freight, but it would require a $5 million grant to rehab the North Creek-Tahawas section.  The line south of North Creek is owned by various local governments.  I hope this line does not become the third domino to fall.

[tree68]

The snowmobile community has been a willing dupe in the whole trail issue on the Adirondack Division.  Most quit listening when they heard the rails might be lifted.  They haven't heard the part where the trail may well disappear because portions of the corridor (an overlay over other designations like "wilderness" and "wild forest" in the master plan) could be closed to motorized vehicles, decimating  their beloved trail.

The true heart of the effort is a few individuals who simply want everyone out of their forest...  One is trying to close a beach on "his" lake.  It's been noted by some that another of the "trail advocates" actually dislikes hikers and has said so publically.  Yet another simply wants a road to his currently landlocked property and sees a railbed without rails as the solution, as all of his other proposals have been shot down.  His quest is legendary in the region.

It should be noted that one of the townships that voted a couple of years ago in favor of the trail has now reversed that decision, with the town council now voting to support the railroad.

The one-year reprieve given the operation between Lake Placid and Saranac Lake may actually end up being the undoing of the trail effort (or at least we can hope it will) as the trail organizers efforts are discredited.  There are some active efforts in that arena.

As for Rails to Trails, I believe that organization has distanced themselves from the Adirondack "trail advocates" as that effort does not represent what RTT tries to accomplish.

[Railvt]

Let's avoid the arguement over high caps/vs low case on "Rails to Trails" issue. Here's the basic rub. If the official Rails to Trails Conservancy organization in-fact opposed(s) the forced trail convsersions of the Adirondack Scenic RR and the Catskill Mountain RR (not to mention the Western Maryland Scenic RR corridor) please tell us when they appeared at a public hearing in support of continued rail service, when they openly defended the rail operators and when they made it very clear that groups like the snowmobilers in the Lake Placid area did not speak for them and that they were opposed to their proposals.

I do not object to trail conversions AFTER a rail line has been officially abandoned. I do strongly object to trail advocates trying to force abandonments when, in these cases, not only is the line intact, but it is (at least partially) in use. Once again we need to remember the promise that came with the formation of the rail/trail movement. The forced abandonment of lines was never to be advocated. Instead the movement would try to protect rail corridors for interim trail use, always on the understanding they would revert if needed to being railways again. But most importantly there would be no before the fact effort to compel the abandoment of a line. This is the absolute reverse of what has occured in all three examples that I have sited.

Further to the ASRR NYDOT "Plan", the state admits that the cost of rail removal and trail conversion on the 34 miles north of Tupper Lake is higher than properly fixing the track on this stretch. The George Pataki administration had given a $5,000,000 grant to the ASRR shortly before he left office which would have covered the cost of renovating Tupper to Saranac. (Saranac-Lake Placid is already Class Two track). But the incoming Cuomo administration refused to release the money and diverted it to other uses. Here alas was an early signal of the Cuomo view. It is also consequential to note that Cuomo's administration held the travesty of a no-testimony allowed "hearing" that I had the misfortune to attend in November of 2014, at which they revealed what--not surprisingly--turned out to be the final proposal.

This entire string, however, was supposed to have been about the Catskill Mountain RR. Suffice it to say that the behavior of the Hein administration in Ulster County echoes the behavior from the Cuomo administration in Albany. Hein began his attacks on the CMRR shortly after the 2011 hurricane. Federal disaster recovery funds were in hand to allow the repair of the line west of Mount Tremper along the Esopus Creek (the best and most scenic part of the route), but were not realeased by the Hein administration. Instead the CMRR was attacked for supposedly not completing enough track repairs, even though they had added a major operation at Kingston and before the 2011 storm were running all the way to the western border of the Ashokan reservation from Phoenicia. Here too the decision to go "all trail" had long-since been reached.

Last week's compromise is, as I noted earlier, certainly better than an outright abandonment. The CMRR can continue its successful family-focused rides out of Kingston and can hope to gain unambiguous access to the beautiful ride in the heart of the mountains to Phoenicia, but as I noted it is far from certain that the CMRR's lease will be renewed next year--nor given the county's past conduct--that any other operator will be forthcoming.

Carl Fowler 

[Railvt]

The lastest news reports from the Catskills reiterate the point that the CMRR could yet be evicted despite this agreement. Alas.