Driving home from work tonight, I paced an empty Dakota and Iowa train. In the country, the speed was 45-50 mph. As it approached town, the speed slowed to the low 20's. Through town, it usually waddles along fairly casualy until it hits the big hill, then it slows down. Obviously, there is some form of speed limits out on the railroad lines. How is that information about what speed limit a train should adhere to conveyed to train crews? Is there a penalty for *speeding* on a line?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy,
Speed limits are generally conveyed both in the Employee Timetable and by roadway signs.
A common timetable format is the headline "Maximum Speed on this Subdivision is 70 MPH, followed by a long list of exceptions, that is places where a lower speed is required. In separate items speeds of various types on trains are likely to be limited, say mixed freight to 60 and trains over XXX per operative brake to 45 or 50 MPH, unit oil trains to even less. Practical effect is intermodals get 70, unless the TPOB limit catches them. Mixed freight usually about 60, unit trains less due to TPOB limits, and oil even less just because.
Roadway signs are standardized by carrier, but not between carriers. They are usually given in either Employee Timetable or Special Instructions.
Yes there are penalties for speeding. This is regulated by the FRA, and I never had to deal with it so can not say much more.
Mac
The Employee Timetable states the Maximum Speed for each line segment as well as any permanent speed restrictions.
Temporary speed restriction are conveyed to crews through the rules that pertain to train bulletins.
Weed Weasels have radar guns and will check train speeds; additionally track workers have a good sense of speed for passing trains. Add to this the various downloadable data that contains speed and GPS location data and Engineers have very little opportunity to 'hide' speeding (if they are so inclined) or get caught for speeding when operating in an area where various rules override each other.
When 'prosecuted' time off (unpaid) will be assessed. With multiple failures, dismissal is a real possibility.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
10 mph or more than 1/2 the maximum speed over the limit (whichever is less) is considered speeding. Don't worry, they'll be talking to you if your a few over consistantly.
From a handout I received some years ago, first offense is 30 days suspension and 3 years probation. Second offense is 1 year suspension and 3 years probation. Third offense is 5 years suspension. Violations can also carry monetary penalties. Those are (or were if they've been updated) what the law required. The railroad could impose harsher punishments, like 6 months for a first offense.
The listed penalties also apply to passing a stop signal (without authority), brake tests, main track authorization, tampering with a safety appliance and a supervisor or pilot fails to take appropriate action.
Jeff
Let's see if I have this right. The line I see the rock trains on runs from Dell Rapids, SD to Sioux City, Iowa, about 80 miles. The north portion is owned by the D&I, the south portion by BNSF. At Sioux City, I think I've read where the rock trains also traverse a bit of CN trackage. Does that mean that the D&I crews receive Employee Timetables from all 3 railroads? Does the crew have to have an employee timetable with them at all times? As far as the exceptions go, would they be listed out by milepost or such? If the exception says "20 mph between milepost 53 and 55", presumably that means the engineer has to account for that in his braking before he gets to milepost 55? Jeff- wouldn't a 3 or 5 year suspension from a railroad job be pretty much a permanent career change for most people?...... 30 days suspension, 2 weeks on the job, 1 year suspension, 2 weeks on the job, 5 year suspension.... Dang! Working only 4 weeks out of the last 6 years might be enough to force a guy to look elsewhere.
Murph - I carry two timetables, and all ancillary documents (bulletin orders, summary bulletin orders, general orders, etc) for the two lines I'm qualified on.
And I carry them whenever I'm on duty. They are in my grip, along with the NORAC rulebook (applies to both lines), extra forms, and stuff like my lantern, gloves, safety gear, etc.
So the answer to your question on paperwork is a resounding yes.
Timetables and bulletin orders will often carry additional information about things like slow orders, like whether signs are posted (usually some distance out) or if the restriction applies to just the head end or the entire train. Regardless, if I'm supposed to have the train at 20 MPH between MP53 and 55, I need to pass MP55 at 20MPH.
I know folks who may run at a half dozen or more locations around the country. They have to have the appropriate paperwork for each. Oftimes running on a line you haven't been on for a while involves getting your books caught up before you go.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Not only must they have the appropriate carrier timetables, they also need the appropriate carrier Rule Books as well as train bulletins for each carrier they operate over.
Foreign carrier Book of Rules, Timetables and Bulletins are not required at railroad crossings at grade. (BNSF isn't required to have UP's at Rochelle - If the BNSF engine that operates up the spur just west of the crossing would go to UP's Global 3 - then it would need all the UP documents, unless the BNSF TTSI specified otherwise)
tree68...... or if the restriction applies to just the head end or the entire train........
Murphy Siding tree68 Um, isn't the rest of the train moving at approximately the same speed as the head end?
tree68
Um, isn't the rest of the train moving at approximately the same speed as the head end?
Yes the rest of the train follows the speed of the head end - however, Head End speed restrictions apply only to the lead locomotive - after it has complied at the specific milepost, they can accelerate the train up to maximum track permitted speed. Regular slow orders apply to the entire train, a signifigant difference when you have a 10000 or 12000 foot train.
Murphy Siding Um, isn't the rest of the train moving at approximately the same speed as the head end?
Only place we have a head end only restriction is going through a city. There's about 15 crossings in a mile, so the speed drops from 50 to 40 (used to be 25). But once you clear most of the crossings, you pick can pick it up again. Now your marker is going to fly through town at 50, but you already have the crossings blocked, so no biggie...
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
So once the head end passes the starting line, you can put the pedal to the metal try to leave the back end of the train.
What is a grip? Is it a railroad specific item that you buy from RailroadsR-Us, or is it called something else by the rest of the world? Considering the lack of trackside weigh stations or Highway Patrolmen on the tracks, who checks to see if you have the right timetables, bulletins, etc. on your run?
Murphy Siding What is a grip? Is it a railroad specific item that you buy from RailroadsR-Us, or is it called something else by the rest of the world? Considering the lack of trackside weigh stations or Highway Patrolmen on the tracks, who checks to see if you have the right timetables, bulletins, etc. on your run?
Grip is your luggage for all your railroad crap. Mine is a 8 year old Carhartt bag. There are specific companies that make RR grips: Red Oxx and Autumn Creek, I believe. But I'm too cheap to buy one of those.
Any member of the friendly local management team can check your bulletins.
Murphy SidingWhat is a grip? Is it a railroad specific item that you buy from RailroadsR-Us, or is it called something else by the rest of the world?
Think of a 'grip' as a kind of man-purse, or the more ordinary version of a doctor's little black bag. The term is a bit archaic but still 'around' enough that I knew what it was before I knew railroaders carried them.
https://www.google.com/search?q=railroad+grip+picture&biw=1125&bih=629&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CBwQsARqFQoTCJCI4KGP6cgCFYKPPgodQowAcg
The newer the conductor = the more expensive the grip (usually).
By the time someone retires, he's using grocery store bags.
Norris, a grip is basically a soft industrial-grade briefcase. It carries your books, a change of clothes, lunch, and other stuff you might need on the railroad. I never owned a real grip--with all of the rulebooks, special instructions, bulletins, etc., I needed just to stay in the yard, I had a 30-pound (I'm not kidding!) backpack. It would be unsafe to wear a backpack around moving equipment (and we all heard about one fatality on NS that was caused by the employee getting her backpack snagged), but I used that when riding my bike to work, and it had a good handle for carrying like a grip any other time.In the yard we were required to carry the general orders and track bulletins for any subdivision we might have to work on. Even though I didn't escape the yard in the course of my assignments, I had info on the Geneva Sub and the Milwaukee Sub, as both of those had Proviso as an end point or a point shown off the main line. I also was required to carry a CORA book. CORA is the Chicago Operating Rules Association, and the book contained pertinent timetable and special instructions for every railroad in the area. That's why it's been fairly easy for me to compare signal rules of one railroad to another around here. I doubt that I ever opened the CORA book in the line of duty (except to take rules tests on parts of it), but I also made sure that it was never out of date as long as I was working. (To a railfan, the maps, speed restrictions, and signals would be fascinating, and the radio channels might be helpful.) When these first came out, they were closely monitored so that copies didn't escape...yet when I went to my first railroadiana show post-CORA, there it was!
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
It used to be, on CNW, that a lot of the backwoods (sorry, backgrass!) crossings protected by gates had head-end speed restrictions on them. You slowed down to a walk to cross them, then speeded back up to a dogtrot once the engines cleared the diamond.
My grip. 20-some pound Maine Coon for scale.
The DAIR has track good for 50 MPH? Where?
Mark Meyer
zugmannThe newer the conductor = the more expensive the grip (usually). By the time someone retires, he's using grocery store bags.
Mine came from Harbor Freight. Some folks use a cloth duffle, or a soft briefcase, as already mentioned. I'd use my soft leather briefcase, but I use it when I travel, too, so I'd be changing stuff back and forth all of the time.
A lot depends on what you carry - ie, lots of paperwork, or other items, means a larger grip.
A check of your publications is part of our check rides, and sometimes efficiency tests, not to mention the occasional spot check. Since the current B.O. is part of what the dispatcher dictates to us on our Form D, we're constantly reminded of at least what that B.O. is.
Murphy Siding What is a grip? Is it a railroad specific item that you buy from RailroadsR-Us, or is it called something else by the rest of the world?
What is a grip? Is it a railroad specific item that you buy from RailroadsR-Us, or is it called something else by the rest of the world?
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
VerMontanan The DAIR has track good for 50 MPH? Where?
zugmann My grip. 20-some pound Maine Coon for scale.
Apparently only railroaders nowadays carry grips, and only old codgers such as I are the non-railroaders who know what a grip is. I never called any of the cases that I have used a "grip," but the older generations in my time spoke of them. I do not remember what I called the navy bag (with the name of one of my brothers stenciled on it) that I carried when I was in college; it could have served as a grip for someone in road service.
Just now, I tried, on both Google and Yahoo, to look the word up--and there was no reference to the plain word "grip." Both had the same list. How education has fallen!
Johnny
Dictionary.com has it:
Slang definitions & phrases for grip
noun
[second sense a shortening of gripsack]
My father was a trucker. He found the only thing that would survive the constant bouncing down the road was plastic Brown Swiss Dairy milk crate.
Grip, I could handle. It sounds like something manly that Tim the tool man Taylor would carry. Don't know that I could handle carrying a *valise*. That sounds too much like a man-purse, or a fanny-pack.
tree68Mine came from Harbor Freight. Some folks use a cloth duffle, or a soft briefcase, as already mentioned. I'd use my soft leather briefcase, but I use it when I travel, too, so I'd be changing stuff back and forth all of the time.
Do you have one of those metal-ish boxes? One conductor I worked with had one, and his engineer referred to it as his "boxcar".
I guess in the olden days, there were some RRers that would make metal grips to sell to other RRers. But those days are long past.
---
My carhartt bag is pretty tough. I've tossed it on the nose of the engine and it slid across and right on down the other side into the ballast countless times.
One time I tossed it off the engine and it gracefully rolled down the embankment. And right into the spring. Luckily the spring was only a few inches deep.
I had one of those "metal" tool boxes from Harbor Freight. I liked them, too. Until one fell apart one day putting it up on the front deck. The handle came off early on, but I replaced it with a rube goldberg handle. When the box came apart, I realized how flimsy they really were.
Now my grips, one for rule books, the other for clothes, etc. are made by DeWalt, or other similar company. I found the heavy cloth tool bags to last much longer than most other luggage. Like Zug, I'm a bit cheap when it comes to luggage for locomotive travel. (My cooler is by Igloo.)
I carry the operating (GCOR) book, Air Brake and Train Handling Rule Book and Safety Rule Book. There's a System Special Instructions and a sheaf of System General Orders. When working the west end, I carry 3 area time tables to cover 9 subdivisions, and 9 sets of subdivision general orders. Most are only because I may touch a subdivision somewhere between a couple hundred feet to about 5 miles. (If I was working the extra board, I'd have to add 2 more time tables just because of adjoing subdivisions.) And don't forget the Hazmat instructions. I also carry the latest (2012) Emergency Response Guide, although only conductors are required to carry one. Then theres maps and spotting instructions for various facilities and yards. Extra pens, some basic tools, a microphone, windex, and don't forget the duct tape, rounds out the contents.
Pockets have cab signal/train control seals and forms, tags for non-complying engines, tags for shut down/isolated engines for fuel conservation, a mini stapler, gloves and an extra reverser or two can be found.
I carry a lot, but truthfully much of it is never needed. That is until I remove an item to lighten the load. Then a situation arrises where I need something I no longer have.
One of our engineers likes to help out conductors by making sure they have an extra knuckle pin in their grip. One guy went a couple trips before he realized it was a bit heavier than normal.
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