Most informative post yet - thanks!
- Erik
WDGF tree68 The event recorder will tell all... Just out of my own ignorance and curiosity, does anyone know if the event recorder includes accelerometer and/or some form of GPS in its data? If so, I'm thinking it will answer the questions about when & where the train accelerated, and if that was normal or abnormal.
tree68 The event recorder will tell all...
Just out of my own ignorance and curiosity, does anyone know if the event recorder includes accelerometer and/or some form of GPS in its data? If so, I'm thinking it will answer the questions about when & where the train accelerated, and if that was normal or abnormal.
65 seconds prior to crash: 70mph
43 seconds: 80mph
31 seconds: 90 mph
16 seconds: 100mph
Using that info alone, they would know where the train was when it started to accelerate. Additionally, the train also has GPS capabilities. In fact, the Amtrak tracker website showed the train @ 106mph as it entered the curve, something those of us who saw it didn't believe at first. That website is for allowing passengers and/or loved ones the ability to follow the progress of a train.
The speed limit in the section of tracks 188 was traveling is 80mph on the inner tracks/70mph on the outer, which are normally used by SEPTA. Sometimes Amtrak trains overtake one another, but I don't think that was the case here, so he'd have been subject to the 80mph limit. So, up to 43 secs prior to the crash he was going the speed limit.
tree68The event recorder will tell all...
BaltACD wanswheel Excerpt from Associated Press, May 20 http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2015/05/21/Unions-Amtrak-engineer-had-grueling-shift-before-derailment/stories/201505210171 Railroad Workers United, a consortium of train unions, said Wednesday that Bostian's shift the day of the derailment had been particularly grueling and that equipment-related delays on his earlier train to Washington shortened his rest break. A system that displays track signals on the train's dashboard failed, forcing the 32-year-old Bostian to pay close attention while reducing speeds on the Acela Express train — which tops out at 150 mph in designated areas — to below 80 mph, the organization's Ron Kaminkow said. "It wasn't a routine run," Kaminkow said. The Acela arrived at Washington's Union Station 26 minutes late, leaving Bostian about an hour to rest, eat and go to the bathroom before his trip back to New York on the Northeast Regional train that eventually derailed in Philadelphia, according to Karl Edler, a veteran Amtrak engineer with knowledge of Bostian's schedule. Engineers used to have at least 90 minutes between trips, Kaminkow and Edler said, but a March 23 schedule change ended the decades-old practice. The swift turnarounds have "the ability to create more fatigue in the workforce, plain and simple," Kaminkow said. The only routine in the business of railroading - Amtrak and all others - is that there is no routine. Each trip is its own tale of trial and tribulations. Once the 12 hour clock starts running at the original on duty time - it keeps on ticking, unless there is a 4 or more hour break, the hour and a half 'dead time' mentioned means that the employee only has 10 1/2 hours to complete the run, because that 1 1/2 hour dead time still counts a working time for the Hours of Service. As an aside - Amtrak crew management does not keep a firm hold on their operating employees Hours of Service when they are operating on freight carriers and when presented with the situation of one or more of their employees being in HOS jeapordy of completing their runs - they act totally surprised and bewildered. I have no idea how they handle this on their own property.
wanswheel Excerpt from Associated Press, May 20 http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2015/05/21/Unions-Amtrak-engineer-had-grueling-shift-before-derailment/stories/201505210171 Railroad Workers United, a consortium of train unions, said Wednesday that Bostian's shift the day of the derailment had been particularly grueling and that equipment-related delays on his earlier train to Washington shortened his rest break. A system that displays track signals on the train's dashboard failed, forcing the 32-year-old Bostian to pay close attention while reducing speeds on the Acela Express train — which tops out at 150 mph in designated areas — to below 80 mph, the organization's Ron Kaminkow said. "It wasn't a routine run," Kaminkow said. The Acela arrived at Washington's Union Station 26 minutes late, leaving Bostian about an hour to rest, eat and go to the bathroom before his trip back to New York on the Northeast Regional train that eventually derailed in Philadelphia, according to Karl Edler, a veteran Amtrak engineer with knowledge of Bostian's schedule. Engineers used to have at least 90 minutes between trips, Kaminkow and Edler said, but a March 23 schedule change ended the decades-old practice. The swift turnarounds have "the ability to create more fatigue in the workforce, plain and simple," Kaminkow said.
Excerpt from Associated Press, May 20
http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2015/05/21/Unions-Amtrak-engineer-had-grueling-shift-before-derailment/stories/201505210171
Railroad Workers United, a consortium of train unions, said Wednesday that Bostian's shift the day of the derailment had been particularly grueling and that equipment-related delays on his earlier train to Washington shortened his rest break.
A system that displays track signals on the train's dashboard failed, forcing the 32-year-old Bostian to pay close attention while reducing speeds on the Acela Express train — which tops out at 150 mph in designated areas — to below 80 mph, the organization's Ron Kaminkow said.
"It wasn't a routine run," Kaminkow said.
The Acela arrived at Washington's Union Station 26 minutes late, leaving Bostian about an hour to rest, eat and go to the bathroom before his trip back to New York on the Northeast Regional train that eventually derailed in Philadelphia, according to Karl Edler, a veteran Amtrak engineer with knowledge of Bostian's schedule.
Engineers used to have at least 90 minutes between trips, Kaminkow and Edler said, but a March 23 schedule change ended the decades-old practice. The swift turnarounds have "the ability to create more fatigue in the workforce, plain and simple," Kaminkow said.
The only routine in the business of railroading - Amtrak and all others - is that there is no routine. Each trip is its own tale of trial and tribulations.
Once the 12 hour clock starts running at the original on duty time - it keeps on ticking, unless there is a 4 or more hour break, the hour and a half 'dead time' mentioned means that the employee only has 10 1/2 hours to complete the run, because that 1 1/2 hour dead time still counts a working time for the Hours of Service.
As an aside - Amtrak crew management does not keep a firm hold on their operating employees Hours of Service when they are operating on freight carriers and when presented with the situation of one or more of their employees being in HOS jeapordy of completing their runs - they act totally surprised and bewildered. I have no idea how they handle this on their own property.
Johnny
It would have been informative had the article mentioned his start time that day. If he were nearing the end of his HOS i would explain fatigue.
Norm
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
"To be more fair and precise, it is the circular and repetitive quality of the speculation that serves no useful purpose for the rest of the forum reader."
Same thought; more politely put.
Murray Norm48327 It's not the speculation per se. It's the constant repetition of the same drivel. "Drivel" is not the word I would have used.
Norm48327 It's not the speculation per se. It's the constant repetition of the same drivel.
It's not the speculation per se. It's the constant repetition of the same drivel.
"Drivel" is not the word I would have used.
To be more fair and precise, it is the circular and repetitive quality of the speculation that serves no useful purpose for the rest of the forum readers.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Euclid Why is it such a sin when I speculate? Everybody else gets to do it.
Bucky....stop derailing this thread, or you're going to get reported.
"Why is it such a sin when I speculate? Everybody else gets to do it."
“You really seem to need to quibble endlessly over what is already settled.”
Go back to the Lac Megantic thread and count how many times you said the engineer did not set enough brakes. You're doing quite similar thing in this thread. You have a rebuttal for everything.
Just the view from the other side of the fence.
schlimm Euclid I have not suggested, nor do I believe that the memory loss caused the derailment. But how do we know that the loss of memory is a result of the derailment? What if the engineer has fallen asleep during the time he should have been anticipating slowing for the curve? He might not have memory of that period due to being asleep. If that were the case, I don’t know if it would be accurate to say that the memory loss caused the derailment. Sleep would be the cause the derailment, and the cause of memory loss. I never said YOU said the memory loss caused the accident. You really seem to need to quibble endlessly over what is already settled. 1. There is no reported Hx of a sleep disorder or prior incidents of his sleeping on the job. 2. The report was negative for drugs and alcohol. 3. He suffered some cuts and a mild concussion in the derailment, but was not unconscious when seen. Ergo, it is not difficult to conclude that since the amnesia was likely retrograde, it had nothing to do with causing the accident. Why he accelerated is TBD from inference from the black box recordings and his recollections, when and if his memory returns. Your endless circular speculation advances our understanding not one jot.
Euclid I have not suggested, nor do I believe that the memory loss caused the derailment. But how do we know that the loss of memory is a result of the derailment? What if the engineer has fallen asleep during the time he should have been anticipating slowing for the curve? He might not have memory of that period due to being asleep. If that were the case, I don’t know if it would be accurate to say that the memory loss caused the derailment. Sleep would be the cause the derailment, and the cause of memory loss.
On the other hand his not remembering the radio call is a little more consistant with the memory loss being from other causes.
Rgds IGN
I have never figured the mentaltity that subscribes to a thread and gets notification for each post.....
Can't say that I fault Boyd for unsubscribing. This thread has become a train wreck in it's own right thanks to the need of one poster to define every word.
tree68 Euclid Is there a reference that clarifies this point about whether the train failed to stop accelerating when it reached the speed limit; or if it suddenly began acceleration after running at continuous speed for some distance? The event recorder will tell all, when the authorities choose to share that information with the public. Until then, it's all speculation. "Constantly accellerating" is an ambiguous term. After all, if your vehicle will do zero to sixty in four seconds, it is constantly accellerating during that four seconds. If your car takes 30 seconds to reach sixty, your car is still constantly accellerating during that 30 seconds. It's all in how far down you press the accellerator. So someone saying that was the case is making a subjective judgement. The event recorder will hold the answer.
Euclid Is there a reference that clarifies this point about whether the train failed to stop accelerating when it reached the speed limit; or if it suddenly began acceleration after running at continuous speed for some distance?
The event recorder will tell all, when the authorities choose to share that information with the public. Until then, it's all speculation.
"Constantly accellerating" is an ambiguous term. After all, if your vehicle will do zero to sixty in four seconds, it is constantly accellerating during that four seconds. If your car takes 30 seconds to reach sixty, your car is still constantly accellerating during that 30 seconds. It's all in how far down you press the accellerator. So someone saying that was the case is making a subjective judgement. The event recorder will hold the answer.
Boyd How do I unsubscribe from this thread?
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Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
EuclidIs there a reference that clarifies this point about whether the train failed to stop accelerating when it reached the speed limit; or if it suddenly began acceleration after running at continuous speed for some distance?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
tree68 Euclid Of course, there is still the question of how the throttle got advanced to 106 mph. It didn't. The throttle was not reduced to an appropriate setting when necessary. I don't know about the locomotive in question, but on the locomotives I run, there's no setting of "106 MPH." Or any other speed, any more than there is on your car.
Euclid Of course, there is still the question of how the throttle got advanced to 106 mph.
It didn't. The throttle was not reduced to an appropriate setting when necessary.
I don't know about the locomotive in question, but on the locomotives I run, there's no setting of "106 MPH." Or any other speed, any more than there is on your car.
I realize there is no speed setting on the throttle. I just meant advanced to result in 106 mph. To your first point though, I am not sure about that. I know that somebody familiar with the route had said that the train was constantly accelerating following the passage of the last station, and simply failed to stop accerating when it reached the speed restriction of the curve. I assume that is what you are referring to.
However, many reports referred to the train running at 70 mph, and then suddenly accelerating to 106. That would suggest that the train speed had leveled off at 70 mph and was not accelerating; and then the throttle was advanced to begin the final acceleration to 106. But that may just be the inerpretation or the result of how it was stated in the media or by the NTSB.
It is an interesting poing because it would make a big difference in the possible status of the engineer. If the train was under constant acceleration all along, the fact that the engineer did not level off speed at the limit could indicate that he was sleeping. However, if the throttle was suddenly advanced ahead of the curve, there is no obvious explanation.
Is there a reference that clarifies this point about whether the train failed to stop accelerating when it reached the speed limit; or if it suddenly began acceleration after running at continuous speed for some distance?
EuclidOf course, there is still the question of how the throttle got advanced to 106 mph.
EuclidSince the train-passing event indicates no loss of consciousness at that point; and that point is within the zone that the engineer currently does not remember; it reinforces the possibility that memory loss within that zone was due to the derailment, and it is projected back in time from the derailment.
As I conjectured many moons ago. Retrograde amnesia, common with even a mild head trauma. In this case, a sequela of the derailment, not the cause of it.
I too, as I asked in a prior post, would like to know when Bostian passed the SEPTA train. If I remember correctly, Bostian says he remembers going through North Philly station. The SEPTA train successfully made it to North Philly and stopped after his windshield shattered, even though from what I remember reading, he had facial glass wounds.
Others have posted that it's a good idea and common for engineers to notify the trains they're overtaking. I'm not sure it's all that important at a station like North Philly, where presumably the SEPTOID was on the outside track, and so had at least a station platform between him and AMT 188, so my guess is they probably passed each other before North Philly, and maybe even before the SEPTOID's windshield shattered.
But I'd really rather stop guessing, does anybody actually know where and when the 2 trains passed?
Patrick Boylan
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