Randy Stahl zugmann jeffhergert No, but then I'm ambidextrous. I can work the controls easily with either hand. Sometimes I even need to use both at the same time. Jeff Then sometimes an extra hand or 3 would come in handy (heh). You can run older locomotives with your toes.. Although I get nasty foot cramps pulling a stiff bell valve out.
zugmann jeffhergert No, but then I'm ambidextrous. I can work the controls easily with either hand. Sometimes I even need to use both at the same time. Jeff Then sometimes an extra hand or 3 would come in handy (heh).
jeffhergert No, but then I'm ambidextrous. I can work the controls easily with either hand. Sometimes I even need to use both at the same time. Jeff
Then sometimes an extra hand or 3 would come in handy (heh).
You can run older locomotives with your toes..
Although I get nasty foot cramps pulling a stiff bell valve out.
Johnny
blue streak 1 edblysard Each "cab" has a isolation switch that cuts the control panel out. If both switches are in the run position neither control panel will function, one has to be in the isolate position for the other to function. Same with the reverser handle, if both cabs have a reverse in the control panel neither will function...one reverser has to be centered and removed to allow the other one to work. We had a few of the Aussie locomotives with dual cabs here to test, took our guys awhile to figure it out, someone finally read the owners manual! But the question still is -- on the ACS-64s which are a new loco model by a different manufacturer how are they interlocked ? Mechanical, electrical, by software or some other way ?
edblysard Each "cab" has a isolation switch that cuts the control panel out. If both switches are in the run position neither control panel will function, one has to be in the isolate position for the other to function. Same with the reverser handle, if both cabs have a reverse in the control panel neither will function...one reverser has to be centered and removed to allow the other one to work. We had a few of the Aussie locomotives with dual cabs here to test, took our guys awhile to figure it out, someone finally read the owners manual!
Each "cab" has a isolation switch that cuts the control panel out.
If both switches are in the run position neither control panel will function, one has to be in the isolate position for the other to function.
Same with the reverser handle, if both cabs have a reverse in the control panel neither will function...one reverser has to be centered and removed to allow the other one to work.
We had a few of the Aussie locomotives with dual cabs here to test, took our guys awhile to figure it out, someone finally read the owners manual!
(think of the reverser handle as being a ignition key for a older car)
23 17 46 11
gardendance jeffhergert If you work 6 consecutive starts you get 48 hours off, 7 starts gets you 72 hours. While when working enough to get you the FR ... (What I hate is tying up at 9pm for FR, especially when if you didn't have it your mark was going to give you a daylight job.) ... (Lately, the norm has been for them to fall back at home, move up at the AFHT.) ... The HOS laws don't do anything for this. I'm not a rail, i guess you'd call me off the rails. Please help me understand some of your terms and abbreviations. How can you work 7 consecutive starts if you get 48 hours off after 6 consecutive starts? What's FR? What's AFHT? I assume HOS is hours of service. How does this apply to the Amtrak 188 wreck?
jeffhergert If you work 6 consecutive starts you get 48 hours off, 7 starts gets you 72 hours. While when working enough to get you the FR ... (What I hate is tying up at 9pm for FR, especially when if you didn't have it your mark was going to give you a daylight job.) ... (Lately, the norm has been for them to fall back at home, move up at the AFHT.) ... The HOS laws don't do anything for this.
If you work 6 consecutive starts you get 48 hours off, 7 starts gets you 72 hours. While when working enough to get you the FR
...
(What I hate is tying up at 9pm for FR, especially when if you didn't have it your mark was going to give you a daylight job.)
(Lately, the norm has been for them to fall back at home, move up at the AFHT.)
The HOS laws don't do anything for this.
I'm not a rail, i guess you'd call me off the rails. Please help me understand some of your terms and abbreviations.
How can you work 7 consecutive starts if you get 48 hours off after 6 consecutive starts?
What's FR?
What's AFHT?
I assume HOS is hours of service.
How does this apply to the Amtrak 188 wreck?
6 starts, that is six consecutive tours of duties where you perform service, and you are to have 48 hours off. If the 6th start puts you AFHT (Away From Home Terminal), you can work a 7th tour of duty back home. For doing that you then must have 72 hours off. To break the cycle you must have 24 hours off from the moment you tied up to the beginning of the next tour of duty. We (and it may be just our way of talking) usually refer to "starts" for the tour of duty.
FR is Federal Requirement, what our Crew Management uses for the status when laid off for it. We also call it Federal Rest. HOS is indeed Hours of Service.
Passenger HOS and requirements are a bit different, so some of this probably doesn't apply to 188. It's in response to Tree's posting that referenced all engineers, including those in unassigned freight service, on how the new HOS was making things better for obtaining proper rest. That if crews were still sleepy, it had be because of something else.
Jeff
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tree68 In the past, railroad crews always had odd schedules to blame for being dozy. Now, with increase rest times, etc, the odd schedule factor is being removed. Yet sleepy crews persist. So it's time to move to another probable cause for said drowziness.
In the past, railroad crews always had odd schedules to blame for being dozy. Now, with increase rest times, etc, the odd schedule factor is being removed. Yet sleepy crews persist.
So it's time to move to another probable cause for said drowziness.
The HOS changes have done virtually NOTHING to improve actual rest. For those turning on their rest, it's given them a few more hours off. If you die on the hours and get limbo time, some more time on top of the regular undisturbed time.
If you work 6 consecutive starts you get 48 hours off, 7 starts gets you 72 hours. While when working enough to get you the FR the time off can be welcome, to me it also can have a downside. When working steady you get into a routine. The time off can disturb that. If your time begins at 9am, it's not so bad. You'll go back to work at, or after, 9am in 2 or 3 days. But if it's 9pm, it's not so good. You're going to have just enough time off that you're probably going to try to sleep like a regular person. (What I hate is tying up at 9pm for FR, especially when if you didn't have it your mark was going to give you a daylight job.)
For those not turning on their rest, it's done nothing. It hasn't improved train line ups. I regularly see my mark (expected time/job) move around, sometimes as much as 12 hours. (Lately, the norm has been for them to fall back at home, move up at the AFHT.) Throw in at home when crews ahead of you on the board start laying off and there is no extra board available to fill the vacancies. Predictability goes out the window. This past weekend (July 4th Holiday) my wife asked me what my mark was. Because of the layoffs ahead of me I could only say sometime within an 8 hour spread. It turned out trains were slow enough that people became available that I never moved up. I went to bed anticipating I would move up around around 2 or 3.
The biggest thing about obtaining the proper rest in unassigned service is this. When you aren't turning fast, at times you are going to have to sleep when you aren't sleepy. You tie up at 9pm, get home and in bed by 12 midnite and sleep 8 hours. You wake up at 8am, check the boards and see your mark is for 10 pm that night. You might try to take a nap in the afternoon or evening. My cats can do it, but I always can't.
The HOS laws don't do anything for this. They are concerned for minimum amounts of time off. They don't recognize that sometimes the problem isn't enough time off, but the unpredictability of assignments.
tree68 schlimm Why don't carriers do a better job of screening for OSA? Since a major risk factor is obese males, shouldn't such engineers be required to have a sleep study? I would submit that it's because it's just coming into the fore as a problem, even though it's been around for years. In the past, railroad crews always had odd schedules to blame for being dozy. Now, with increase rest times, etc, the odd schedule factor is being removed. Yet sleepy crews persist. So it's time to move to another probable cause for said drowziness.
schlimm Why don't carriers do a better job of screening for OSA? Since a major risk factor is obese males, shouldn't such engineers be required to have a sleep study?
I would submit that it's because it's just coming into the fore as a problem, even though it's been around for years.
I would hope a structure for screening could be established quickly. Not all engineers would need a sleep study, so expenses could be reduced. Only those with the primary risk factor of obesity are likely candidates.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimmWhy don't carriers do a better job of screening for OSA? Since a major risk factor is obese males, shouldn't such engineers be required to have a sleep study?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
wanswheelProbable Cause The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of the accident was the engineer’s noncompliance with the 30-mph speed restriction because he had fallen asleep due to undiagnosed severe obstructive sleep apnea exacerbated by a recent circadian rhythm shift required by his work schedule. Contributing to the accident was the absence of a Metro-North Railroad policy or a Federal Railroad Administration regulation requiring medical screening for sleep disorders. Also contributing to the accident was the absence of a positive train control system that would have automatically applied the brakes to enforce the speed restriction. Contributing to the severity of the accident was the loss of the window glazing that resulted in the fatal ejection of four passengers from the train.
Thanks for the clarification. That seems to be at least one crash that the NTSB believes could have been prevented with PTC. I realize that in the opinion of some forum members, the NTSB opinions do not carry much weight. Why is that? Are they (NTSB investigators) not experts?
Why don't carriers do a better job of screening for OSA? Since a major risk factor is obese males, shouldn't such engineers be required to have a sleep study?
Just so we're all singing out of the same hymnal, here is a link to the RSIA itself which mandated the fatigue management plans.
It would be interesting to know in Rockefeller's case exactly what he discussed with his 'health providers' in the meetings before his accident occurred. Is it now understood or agreed in the medical community that sleep apnea can be induced or exacerbated in certain persons by the kind of stress posed by a typical 'any hour' railroad calling method? Particularly in the presence of other physiological risk factors for OSA? And was there explicit reference in MN's fatigue management plan structure to check various types of fatigue risk factor in each employee for whom a plan was in place, and at least test for their applicability?
Extend this to Bostian, who IIRC had gone on record with safety concerns regarding fatigue and work conditions, and had become a little infamous for having done so...
How does Amtrak implement the fatigue management plans stated as required under the RSIA, and is it possible to read the relevant language from one of Amtrak's plans either online or in a post?
I hereby apologize for not remembering the full report if indeed the full report was sent to me.
Excerpt from NTSB railroad accident brief, October 24, 2014
http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/RAB1412.pdf
Engineer Medical Condition
Metro-North medical records indicate that the engineer had passed all required physical examinations. The engineer’s personal medical records indicate that he had complained of fatigue prior to the accident and had been diagnosed with low testosterone and later hypothyroidism. He was obese with a body mass index of 36.4 in the week following the accident. During interviews following the accident, the engineer reported that his wife had complained of his snoring.
After the accident, the engineer had a sleep evaluation that identified excessive daytime sleepiness and underwent a sleep study that resulted in a diagnosis of severe obstructive sleep apnea (OSA).The engineer had multiple OSA risk factors, including obesity, male gender, snoring, complaints of fatigue, and excessive daytime sleepiness. Although the engineer had these multiple risk factors and multiple visits with health care providers, neither his personal medical providers nor his occupational health evaluations by Metro-North identified his OSA.
Following the sleep study, successful treatment of the engineer’s OSA was accomplished within 30 days of the diagnosis.
The Metro-North medical protocols and the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) regulations in place at the time of the accident required triennial vision and hearing testing but did not require screening safety sensitive personnel for sleep disorders or any other medical conditions.
Engineer Work Shift Change
Beginning on November 18, 2013, less than 2 weeks before the accident, the engineer’s work schedule changed dramatically as a result of a routine job bid process, called the “pick.” After more than 2 years working shifts beginning in the late afternoon or evening and ending in the early morning, the engineer began to work shifts that that began in the dark of early morning (4-5 a.m.) and continued until early afternoon. Adjusting to a new wake/sleep schedule can take days or longer, depending on the difference between the previous and current schedules and the quality of restorative sleep obtained. The engineer told investigators that on his new work schedule he began to awaken around 3:30 a.m. and retire between 8:00 p.m. and 8:30 p.m. His wake/sleep cycle had now shifted about 12 hours. The engineer reported that his wake and sleep times varied in the days preceding the accident around the Thanksgiving holiday, which could have degraded his quality and quantity of sleep. Given the substantial shift in work schedules and the varied sleep/wake times, it is likely that the engineer had not adjusted fully to the new work schedule at the time of the accident. The engineer’s OSA combined with his incomplete adjustment to a dramatic shift in work schedule most likely resulted in him being fatigued at the time of the accident.
Probable Cause
The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of the accident was the engineer’s noncompliance with the 30-mph speed restriction because he had fallen asleep due to undiagnosed severe obstructive sleep apnea exacerbated by a recent circadian rhythm shift required by his work schedule. Contributing to the accident was the absence of a Metro-North Railroad policy or a Federal Railroad Administration regulation requiring medical screening for sleep disorders. Also contributing to the accident was the absence of a positive train control system that would have automatically applied the brakes to enforce the speed restriction. Contributing to the severity of the accident was the loss of the window glazing that resulted in the fatal ejection of four passengers from the train.
Excerpt from NTSB abstract of special investigative report, November 19, 2014
http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Documents/2014_SIR_MetroNorth_BMG-Abstract.pdf
Had the Federal Railroad Administration implemented National Transportation Safety Board recommendations R-02-24 and R-12-16, or complied with the legislated time limit in the Rail Safety Improvement Act of 2008 to require fatigue management plans by railroads, Metro-North Railroad would have been required to appropriately screen, evaluate, and treat the engineer for obstructive sleep apnea prior to the December 1, 2013, derailment in The Bronx, and thus could have prevented the accident.
jeffhergertNo, but then I'm ambidextrous. I can work the controls easily with either hand. Sometimes I even need to use both at the same time. Jeff
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
We won't know if Dave's talking about the same article as the one you linked.
Wizlish schlimm http://www.lohud.com/story/news/transit/2015/05/14/charges-engineer-william-rockefeller-caused-nyc-train-derailment-crash/27342575/ However, it wasn't a consequence of a shift change. It was attributed to Rockefeller's previously undiagnosed sleep apnea. Klepper had the story wrong. "Wrong' is more than a little strong. The actual story you quoted says: The National Transportation Safety Board concluded last year that the Metro-North Railroad engineer, William Rockefeller, nodded off because he suffered from an undiagnosed sleep disorder and had a drastic shift in his work schedule. The emphasis is in the original and I believe, in the story, is a clickable link to more detail. Now, since that's what Mr. Klepper said, he's either about as right as you are, or you're just as wrong as you judged him to be.
schlimm http://www.lohud.com/story/news/transit/2015/05/14/charges-engineer-william-rockefeller-caused-nyc-train-derailment-crash/27342575/ However, it wasn't a consequence of a shift change. It was attributed to Rockefeller's previously undiagnosed sleep apnea. Klepper had the story wrong.
"Wrong' is more than a little strong. The actual story you quoted says:
The National Transportation Safety Board concluded last year that the Metro-North Railroad engineer, William Rockefeller, nodded off because he suffered from an undiagnosed sleep disorder and had a drastic shift in his work schedule.
The emphasis is in the original and I believe, in the story, is a clickable link to more detail. Now, since that's what Mr. Klepper said, he's either about as right as you are, or you're just as wrong as you judged him to be.
Yes and no. I overlooked that and I am sorry. However, in the immortal words of Paul Harvey, "And now the rest of the story." Klepper omitted any reference to the sleep apnea, which if you were to read on, seems to be the primary cause according to the NTSB report:
Rockefeller told investigators he felt strangely "dazed" right before the crash. They concluded he had undiagnosed sleep apnea, which robs its victims of rest because they are repeatedly awakened as their airway closes and their breathing stops. The NTSB said Rockefeller's apnea interrupted his sleep dozens of times each night.
The board recommended better screening for sleep disorders in engineers.
Chartier said New York allows for charging someone who knowingly or recklessly disregards a risk or fails to perceive one when a reasonable person would. But "none of that existed in this case," because Rockefeller didn't know of his condition.
Additionally, clicking the link opens an article which discusses other employees working seven day weeks. It does not appear to mention Rockefeller.
wanswheel Is it inconvenient for a right-handed engineer to have the ‘throttle’ on the left?
No, but then I'm ambidextrous. I can work the controls easily with either hand. Sometimes I even need to use both at the same time.
schlimmhttp://www.lohud.com/story/news/transit/2015/05/14/charges-engineer-william-rockefeller-caused-nyc-train-derailment-crash/27342575/ However, it wasn't a consequence of a shift change. It was attributed to Rockefeller's previously undiagnosed sleep apnea. Klepper had the story wrong.
gardendance Can you tell us where you learned this? I must have gotten it wrong when I thought I had read he had been on this shift for 2 weeks, which I don't consider to be "just before". Also, what was his work schedule on the prior shift? If it changed only a few hours I don't think I'd consider that to cause much drowsiness.
Can you tell us where you learned this? I must have gotten it wrong when I thought I had read he had been on this shift for 2 weeks, which I don't consider to be "just before".
Also, what was his work schedule on the prior shift? If it changed only a few hours I don't think I'd consider that to cause much drowsiness.
Found it:
http://www.lohud.com/story/news/transit/2015/05/14/charges-engineer-william-rockefeller-caused-nyc-train-derailment-crash/27342575/
However, it wasn't a consequence of a shift change. It was attributed to Rockefeller's previously undiagnosed sleep apnea. Klepper had the story wrong.
Gardendance, a friend sent a scanned newspaper clipping, a believe a Westchester newspaper. Do the research and report back. Should be simple to pursue the outcomr of the case against him, but I lack the time at the moment. If you don't get to it, I should be able to do so in a few days.
gardendance When you say it has 2 control compartments, I assume you mean it has a control cab at both ends, just like every double ended locomotive, trolley or subway car since the late 1800's. Not to be confused with the Enterprise's "auxiliary control" which several Star Trek episodes used to let the bad guys take control. Of course I can't answer for the newfangled super computerized ACS64, in which they might not have just reinvented the wheel, but maybe reinvented fire as well, and done any number of other "improvements" that may have brought about problems, but I've always thought when one moves the old fashioned reverse lever at the controlling end it somehow magically keeps the other end from doing anything. I often wondered what whould happen if somebody put an extra reversing key into the trailing cab on a double ended train. But what are the possiblities? Did somebody leave something turned on in the locomotive's back end at Washington, or jump into the back cab at 30th St and do something? How likely is it that nobody noticed either action's manifestation until Frankford junction? How likely is it that the investigators would announce no evidence of locomotive failure?
When you say it has 2 control compartments, I assume you mean it has a control cab at both ends, just like every double ended locomotive, trolley or subway car since the late 1800's. Not to be confused with the Enterprise's "auxiliary control" which several Star Trek episodes used to let the bad guys take control.
Of course I can't answer for the newfangled super computerized ACS64, in which they might not have just reinvented the wheel, but maybe reinvented fire as well, and done any number of other "improvements" that may have brought about problems, but I've always thought when one moves the old fashioned reverse lever at the controlling end it somehow magically keeps the other end from doing anything. I often wondered what whould happen if somebody put an extra reversing key into the trailing cab on a double ended train.
But what are the possiblities? Did somebody leave something turned on in the locomotive's back end at Washington, or jump into the back cab at 30th St and do something? How likely is it that nobody noticed either action's manifestation until Frankford junction? How likely is it that the investigators would announce no evidence of locomotive failure?
Murphy Siding schlimm This accident still appears to be caused solely by human error - the engineer. I still believe the likliest mitigating medical factor, if any, would be a complex partial seizure disorder, usually from underlying temporal lobe epilepsy. Loss of consciousness is from 30 to 120 seconds with accompanying amnesia. Many folks (~7.5 million worldwide) suffer from this condition for a fairly long time because it is not easily observed or diagnosed. How would something like this be diagnosed?
schlimm This accident still appears to be caused solely by human error - the engineer. I still believe the likliest mitigating medical factor, if any, would be a complex partial seizure disorder, usually from underlying temporal lobe epilepsy. Loss of consciousness is from 30 to 120 seconds with accompanying amnesia. Many folks (~7.5 million worldwide) suffer from this condition for a fairly long time because it is not easily observed or diagnosed.
This accident still appears to be caused solely by human error - the engineer. I still believe the likliest mitigating medical factor, if any, would be a complex partial seizure disorder, usually from underlying temporal lobe epilepsy. Loss of consciousness is from 30 to 120 seconds with accompanying amnesia. Many folks (~7.5 million worldwide) suffer from this condition for a fairly long time because it is not easily observed or diagnosed.
How would something like this be diagnosed?
Complex partial seizures and abscence seizures (similar, but only 10-20 seconds duration) are usually diagnosed by a neurologist using an EEG, preferably with nasopharyngeal leads. AFAIK, neither type is necessarily triggered by light or sound, although they could be.
Kave waited for this question to asked and answered. In no way are these implying anything but more food for thought.
1. The ACS-64 has 2 control compartments.
2. How does an engineer establish which compartment is in control ?
3. How is the other compartment disabled from being in control ?. Is it mechanical, electrical, software or some other way ?
4. Any way for non controlling compartment to exert any control ?
5. Where are the event recorder imputs originated ?.
Thank you Angela . Hope you have a great 4th.
Reapectfully, Cannonball
Y6bs evergreen in my mind
schlimm I still believe the likeliest mitigating medical factor, if any, would be a complex partial seizure disorder, usually from underlying temporal lobe epilepsy. Loss of consciousness is from 30 to 120 seconds with accompanying amnesia.
A remarkable example of how informed 'speculation' has a clear and important place in this thread. The potential cause and differential diagnosis are well thought out and clear, and the relevance to the topic is, I think, both straightforward and interesting.
There are two possibly disturbing questions that come out of this for me, though.
One is: Is this the kind of 'epilepsy' that can be triggered by bright light or other stimuli at the 'wrong' frequency? If so ... does Bostian have any hope of returning to locomotive service, or even railroad service?
The other is: We have seen some seemingly 'stretched' diagnoses, such as sleep apnea, used to explain railroad fatigue or inattention leading to increased accident risk. If this temporal-lobe epilepsy is as prevalent as schlimm indicates, should we expect to see railroads attempting to test for the condition during interviewing potential new hires -- are there even reliable tests that would establish the condition that don't pose risk or hardship to the individuals being tested? Is there a form of reasonable accommodation (I don't really see how there could be any) for engineers, or even for conductors and other operations-related personnel?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
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