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Amtrak Wreck in Philadelphia

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, February 16, 2016 4:32 PM

blue streak 1

There is something Amtrak needs to explain.  There was a PRR train during WW-2 that derailed going northbound at this location with many injuries.  How could Amtrak not think that a new loco which could accelerate faster than a GG-1 not also derail there and needed ATC protection ?

Those who do not remember history are bound to repeat it.  Amtrak's history began in 1971.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:46 PM

There is something Amtrak needs to explain.  There was a PRR train during WW-2 that derailed going northbound at this location with many injuries.  How could Amtrak not think that a new loco which could accelerate faster than a GG-1 not also derail there and needed ATC protection ?

 

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, February 16, 2016 11:46 AM
In the interview with the engineer, his claimed loss of memory strikes me as being quite subjective.  He describes a state of mind where his consciousness seems to be nebulous, somewhere between fully lucid and partial awareness.
The span of the memory problem is also quite short, lasting from after he opened the throttle to accelerate; until reaching the point of entering the curve; a span of about one minuteHe recalls the locomotive beginning to lift off of the rail and his conclusion that it was tipping over.      
 
 
 
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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Monday, February 15, 2016 7:54 PM

Wizlish
edblysard
zugmann
edblysard
What is the name of the red paint the Santa Fe used?
 Santa Fe Red?

Oh no, no, no...that has to be nit-picked to death first!

DuPont 83-5451 or 254-35405.  Why argue about semantics when you have the reference? (0.8 Cool)

This is railroad-relevant because back when I was in the track contracting business, my younger colleague would get frustrated at the micro-management and second-guessing of his decisions: "I need a backhoe to change those ties"; "No, we'll send you a CAT rubber-tire loader". 

Thus I became acquainted with his lament that it was like the scene at "The Bridge of Death" in "Monty Python and The Holy Grail" - specifically, the "What is your favorite color ?" questions at about 1:34 and 2:35 in this video clip:   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpx6XnankZ8 

- Paul North. 

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
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Posted by Euclid on Monday, February 15, 2016 2:26 PM
Earlier, we were told that the engineer remembered nothing from the time of passing the last station to the moment of the derailment.  But the interview indicates that he actually remembered quite a bit during this span. 
He remembers opening the throttle with the intention of accelerating to 80 mph.  As I understand it, this was the acceleration that took the train up to 106 mph, so for some reason; he did not reduce the throttle to hold at 80 mph. 
I assume that he was accelerating to reach 80 because that was the speed limit.  I do not know why he was running at less than 80 mph.  However, I do wonder why he would decide to accelerate to 80 mph when only a mile or so ahead was the curve with the 50 mph limit.  Would it make sense to accelerate up to 80 mph, and then immediately brake down to 50 mph?
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Posted by Wizlish on Monday, February 15, 2016 2:08 PM

Electroliner 1935
Bostian operated an Acela from NYC to WAS without operating cab signals for much of the trip. He had to run at a reduced speed but managed to only be about thirty minutes late. Am I correct that the speed limit without cab signals is 79 mph? Or are there other rules that allowed a higher speed?

I seem to remember something about 45 mph restrictive speed being possible at any fixed signal without warning, with the exhausting part being the continued having to watch for each signal as if it might require quick reaction to reduce speed.  I took it to be as if there were a kind of higher-speed analogue of a banner test possible along the whole of the right-of-way.

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Posted by Electroliner 1935 on Monday, February 15, 2016 1:36 PM

Bostian operated an Acela from NYC to WAS without operating cab signals for much of the trip. He had to run at a reduced speed but managed to only be about thirty minutes late. Am I correct that the speed limit without cab signals is 79 mph? Or are there other rules that allowed a higher speed?

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Posted by Wizlish on Sunday, February 14, 2016 10:47 PM

edblysard
zugmann
edblysard
What is the name of the red paint the Santa Fe used?
 Santa Fe Red?

Oh no, no, no...that has to be nit-picked to death first!

DuPont 83-5451 or 254-35405.  Why argue about semantics when you have the reference? (0.8 Cool)

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Posted by jeffhergert on Sunday, February 14, 2016 9:53 PM

zugmann
 
BaltACD
Railroad Investigations are not Trials of Law and are not bound by legal trial rules.

 

Also known as Kagaroo Court.  A retired engineer I knew once summed it up perfectly:   "Bring that guilty SOB in so we can give him a fair trial!"

 

Just because the railroad is the prosecution, judge and jury is no reason to think an employe can't have a fair hearing.Whistling

Jeff

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Posted by edblysard on Sunday, February 14, 2016 9:17 PM

zugmann
 
edblysard
What is the name of the red paint the Santa Fe used?

 

Santa Fe Red?

 

Oh no, no, no...that has to be nit-picked to death first!

How do I get to be 20% cooler like you?

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Posted by Semper Vaporo on Sunday, February 14, 2016 6:30 PM

ricktrains4824
 zugmann

edblysard

What is the name of the red paint the Santa Fe used?

The better question, for general discussion, and a shout out to Spongebob fans out there is: "What color is my underwear?"

Laugh

 
That is what I ask telemarketers when they call me.

Semper Vaporo

Pkgs.

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Posted by Euclid on Sunday, February 14, 2016 6:28 PM

Norm48327
 
Euclid
As I understand, the question of whether the engineer will be fired or disciplined has not been announced yet. If the Amtrak investigation is over, what would they be waiting for in regard to making a decision about the engineer, or announcing what that decision is?

 

As Balt said, it's an internal matter. The decision may never be publicly announced.

 

I can understand not making the investigation public, but how can they keep his employment status secret?  What if the engineer goes public by saying that he was fired, or saying that he is still working for Amtrak? 

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Posted by Norm48327 on Sunday, February 14, 2016 6:15 PM

Euclid
As I understand, the question of whether the engineer will be fired or disciplined has not been announced yet. If the Amtrak investigation is over, what would they be waiting for in regard to making a decision about the engineer, or announcing what that decision is?

As Balt said, it's an internal matter. The decision may never be publicly announced.

Norm


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Posted by Euclid on Sunday, February 14, 2016 5:57 PM

BaltACD
 
Euclid

Is Amtrak conducting their own investigation of the wreck?  When are they going to decided whether to fire the engineer or retain him in service?

 

I suspect the investigation has been conducted within the the framework of the BLE agreement with Amtrak already. Company investigations and their results are not a matter of public record.

 

As I understand, the question of whether the engineer will be fired or disciplined has not been announced yet.  If the Amtrak investigation is over, what would they be waiting for in regard to making a decision about the engineer, or announcing what that decision is?

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Posted by ricktrains4824 on Sunday, February 14, 2016 5:32 PM

zugmann

 

 
edblysard
What is the name of the red paint the Santa Fe used?

 

Santa Fe Red?

 

Nah, Warbonnett Red. Wink

The better question, for general discussion, and a shout out to Spongebob fans out there is: "What color is my underwear?"

Laugh

Ricky W.

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Posted by zugmann on Sunday, February 14, 2016 3:02 PM

edblysard
What is the name of the red paint the Santa Fe used?

Santa Fe Red?

  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.

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Posted by edblysard on Sunday, February 14, 2016 2:23 PM

BaltACD
 
samfp1943

{soapbox]

I found, in reviewing my e-mail account, a couple of notifications that my Thread had been 'moved'.   The first was just sort of a one-line notice, The second slightly more in detail.  Neither was a 'satisfactory' explanation, IMHO.  (They were sort of in the manner of a Virginia Cop 'rousting' one out of the limited Rest Area parking spaces, because 'time for stopping was limited to something less than an hour'.) Bang Head  SoapBox

 

There is only one thing worse than a new moderator - a new moderator that thinks he is going to 'drag the forum to his version of RIGHT, kicking or screaming'.

It is a internet forum - it is what the participants make it - not what the moderator wants it to be. 

 

So let me see if I have this correct....

I post a thread about the traction motors used  in an SD40-2 here, in the General Discussion thread....but because it can be construed to be about a locomotive, it will be moved to the "Locomotive" part of the forum?

That being the case, what constitutes a "General" thread?

How many flavors of vanallia there are?

What is the name of the red paint the Santa Fe used?

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Posted by BaltACD on Sunday, February 14, 2016 12:04 PM

Euclid

Is Amtrak conducting their own investigation of the wreck?  When are they going to decided whether to fire the engineer or retain him in service?

I suspect the investigation has been conducted within the the framework of the BLE agreement with Amtrak already. Company investigations and their results are not a matter of public record.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by Euclid on Sunday, February 14, 2016 11:26 AM

BaltACD
 
Euclid
How unusual is it for the cause of a train wreck to go unexplained because the only person in a position to have realized the cause says he or she cannot remember what happened?
Can such a person be blamed for the cause?  In a typical railroad investigation where the cause is apparently operator error, negligence, or falling asleep, but there is no witness to corroborate that cause; and the person apparently responsible claims he or she cannot remember; what would the investigation conclude?

 

There is no 'Innocent by reason of Insanity' or inability to remember details of the happening.

Fact 1 - Engineer was at the controls prior to the incident and he has acknowledged as much.

Fact 2 - The train exceeded the overturning speed at the point of the incident.

Verdict - Guilty of not properly controling the train.  Most likely discipline - dismissal from Amtrak employment. 

Would an engineer be deemed innocent if he had been knocked unconscious by a thrown rock and therefore failed to control his train?

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Posted by Euclid on Sunday, February 14, 2016 11:22 AM

Is Amtrak conducting their own investigation of the wreck?  When are they going to decided whether to fire the engineer or retain him in service?

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Posted by zugmann on Sunday, February 14, 2016 11:17 AM

BaltACD
Railroad Investigations are not Trials of Law and are not bound by legal trial rules.

Also known as Kagaroo Court.  A retired engineer I knew once summed it up perfectly:   "Bring that guilty SOB in so we can give him a fair trial!"

  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.

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Posted by BaltACD on Sunday, February 14, 2016 10:55 AM

Euclid
How unusual is it for the cause of a train wreck to go unexplained because the only person in a position to have realized the cause says he or she cannot remember what happened?
Can such a person be blamed for the cause?  In a typical railroad investigation where the cause is apparently operator error, negligence, or falling asleep, but there is no witness to corroborate that cause; and the person apparently responsible claims he or she cannot remember; what would the investigation conclude?

There is no 'Innocent by reason of Insanity' or inability to remember details of the happening.

Fact 1 - Engineer was at the controls prior to the incident and he has acknowledged as much.

Fact 2 - The train exceeded the overturning speed at the point of the incident.

Verdict - Guilty of not properly controling the train.  Most likely discipline - dismissal from Amtrak employment. 

Railroad Investigations are not Trials of Law and are not bound by legal trial rules.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by Euclid on Sunday, February 14, 2016 9:41 AM
How unusual is it for the cause of a train wreck to go unexplained because the only person in a position to have realized the cause says he or she cannot remember what happened?
Can such a person be blamed for the cause?  In a typical railroad investigation where the cause is apparently operator error, negligence, or falling asleep, but there is no witness to corroborate that cause; and the person apparently responsible claims he or she cannot remember; what would the investigation conclude?
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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, February 5, 2016 1:18 PM

samfp1943

{soapbox]

I found, in reviewing my e-mail account, a couple of notifications that my Thread had been 'moved'.   The first was just sort of a one-line notice, The second slightly more in detail.  Neither was a 'satisfactory' explanation, IMHO.  (They were sort of in the manner of a Virginia Cop 'rousting' one out of the limited Rest Area parking spaces, because 'time for stopping was limited to something less than an hour'.) Bang Head  SoapBox

There is only one thing worse than a new moderator - a new moderator that thinks he is going to 'drag the forum to his version of RIGHT, kicking or screaming'.

It is a internet forum - it is what the participants make it - not what the moderator wants it to be. 

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, February 5, 2016 12:50 PM

     I can't find the e-mail, but I believe mine just said "Your thread 'Adding the Padding" has been moved from the Trains Magazine Forum to the Locomotives Forum'." 

      Who knows, maybe the answers will be in tomorrow's Trains Newswire.  What'ya say tdmidget?  Have you seen anything about that on the internets yet?Stick out tongue

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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Posted by Euclid on Friday, February 5, 2016 10:54 AM

samfp1943
 
Euclid
I assume that the decision to move these threads was not made by the originators of them.  I do not know if they were notified, or whether the move was presented as an option to them or leave them here. 
We have had discussion here about forum rules including the rule for being on topic.  Moderators have participated in these discussions.  At no time do I recall anyone saying that in order for a post on locomotives to be on topic, it must be placed in the locomotive forum, and not here on the general forum. 
So it seems to me that it would be only common courtesy for the moderators to explain this sudden relocating of posts, which is apparently based on the premise that they should not have been made on this forum.    
 

 

 

 

 

{soapbox]

I found, in reviewing my e-mail account, a couple of notifications that my Thread had been 'moved'.   The first was just sort of a one-line notice, The second slightly more in detail.  Neither was a 'satisfactory' explanation, IMHO.  (They were sort of in the manner of a Virginia Cop 'rousting' one out of the limited Rest Area parking spaces, because 'time for stopping was limited to something less than an hour'.) Bang Head  SoapBox

 

Can you tell us what the second notice said?  It seems that they ought to explain the reasoning for the rest of us so we know what they expect.  They apparently believe that we should not post things here if there is a more focused forum available.  But that has never been stated or forced in the past.  It is strange that the moderators would not respond to our concerns as they have been expressed here.

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Posted by schlimm on Friday, February 5, 2016 10:35 AM

Murphy Siding

 

 
tdmidget
  Anything that is in the newswire is already out on the AP and many internet news sources as well. 

 

 

  You know what would be really cool?  Since you say anything on the newswire is already out there, why don't you prove it?  Tell us what tommorrow's newswire will have on it for stories. That would be impressive. 

 

 

Sounds like midget demeans/devalues the Newswire because he is not a subscriber?   Sour grapes time?   

I am not a subscriber so I do not have access.  But I think it is useful.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

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Posted by samfp1943 on Friday, February 5, 2016 10:21 AM

Euclid
I assume that the decision to move these threads was not made by the originators of them.  I do not know if they were notified, or whether the move was presented as an option to them or leave them here. 
We have had discussion here about forum rules including the rule for being on topic.  Moderators have participated in these discussions.  At no time do I recall anyone saying that in order for a post on locomotives to be on topic, it must be placed in the locomotive forum, and not here on the general forum. 
So it seems to me that it would be only common courtesy for the moderators to explain this sudden relocating of posts, which is apparently based on the premise that they should not have been made on this forum.    
 

 

{soapbox]

I found, in reviewing my e-mail account, a couple of notifications that my Thread had been 'moved'.   The first was just sort of a one-line notice, The second slightly more in detail.  Neither was a 'satisfactory' explanation, IMHO.  (They were sort of in the manner of a Virginia Cop 'rousting' one out of the limited Rest Area parking spaces, because 'time for stopping was limited to something less than an hour'.) Bang Head  SoapBox

 

 


 

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Posted by tree68 on Friday, February 5, 2016 9:31 AM

We have the same thing in the fire service - news stories that can be found elsewhere on the 'Net.  In fact, the fire sites often link directly to a news site.

The thing with both the Trains NewsWire and the various fire sites is that someone is out there looking for this stuff and putting it in one place so those of us who are interested can easily find it.

And we should thank them for that...

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, February 5, 2016 8:27 AM

tdmidget
  Anything that is in the newswire is already out on the AP and many internet news sources as well. 

  You know what would be really cool?  Since you say anything on the newswire is already out there, why don't you prove it?  Tell us what tommorrow's newswire will have on it for stories. That would be impressive. 

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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