"Acts of God" and Force Majoure one and the same in contracts of common carrige?

[trackrat888]

I noticed that one of my airlines ( Frontier) uses the the term Force Majoure in its contract of carrage. It also says that if it cant get into Ohare it can drop me off in Milwalkie WI and that it does not have to give me a refund. Um Millwalkie is a long walk to Northwestern University and they better get me a Amtrak or Bus Ticket or a limo home. CSX has also used that term as well in its freight rate sheets in case of hurricanes or snow storms the size of Buffalo. I assume "God"s attorneys wrote all these transport companies a nasty legal letter and told them to quit asigning blame on them via the term "Acts of God".

[CopCarSS]

.

[Falcon48]

trackrat888

I noticed that one of my airlines ( Frontier) uses the the term Force Majoure in its contract of carrage. It also says that if it cant get into Ohare it can drop me off in Milwalkie WI and that it does not have to give me a refund. Um Millwalkie is a long walk to Northwestern University and they better get me a Amtrak or Bus Ticket or a limo home. CSX has also used that term as well in its freight rate sheets in case of hurricanes or snow storms the size of Buffalo. I assume "God"s attorneys wrote all these transport companies a nasty legal letter and told them to quit asigning blame on them via the term "Acts of God".

 

trackrat888

I noticed that one of my airlines ( Frontier) uses the the term Force Majoure in its contract of carrage. It also says that if it cant get into Ohare it can drop me off in Milwalkie WI and that it does not have to give me a refund. Um Millwalkie is a long walk to Northwestern University and they better get me a Amtrak or Bus Ticket or a limo home. CSX has also used that term as well in its freight rate sheets in case of hurricanes or snow storms the size of Buffalo. I assume "God"s attorneys wrote all these transport companies a nasty legal letter and told them to quit asigning blame on them via the term "Acts of God".

 

The railroad agreements I'm familiar with use the term "force majeure", rather than "Acts of God".  But the operation of provisions like this is the same.  They excuse the parties from their obligations in the event of a "force majeure" (or "act of God") event that prevents performance.    

[Deggesty]

trackrat888

I noticed that one of my airlines ( Frontier) uses the the term Force Majoure in its contract of carrage. It also says that if it cant -- "cant" means "tilt." get into Ohare -- I know of O'Hare Airport, but I do not know where "Ohare is; is it in Hawaii? it can drop me off in Milwalkie WI -- Milwaukie is in Oregon, which is certainly a long walk from Northwestern University.  and that it does not have to give me a refund. Um Millwalkie is a long walk to Northwestern University and they better get me a Amtrak or Bus Ticket or a limo home. CSX has also used that term as well in its freight rate sheets in case of hurricanes or snow storms the size of Buffalo. I assume "God"s attorneys wrote all these transport companies a nasty legal letter and told them to quit asigning blame on them via the term "Acts of God". -- God does not need attorneys; he takes care of all such matters himself.--and the possesssive of "God" is "God's." 

 

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

My interpretation and use of "Acts of God" would be more accurately termed "extraordinarily unusual natural events, such as tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, earthquakes, landslides, sinkholes, etc.".  That's how I often write this type of provision in the contracts I prepare, eschewing the use of "God" in the non-religious [EDIT:] secular world of business and governments (freedom from the imposition of religion, remember ?), to avoid offending those who have other deities, and to not associate God with often disastrous calamities (which seems inconsistent to me). 

"Force Majeure" is broader, and can encompass such other disruptions - typically man-made - such as strikes, embargoes (a big one for railroads), shortages of equipment, reasonably unforseeable site, underground, or operational conditions, power and other utility outages, fuel shortages or rationing, road closures, lock-downs, riots, governmental edicts, martial law, conditions caused by third-parties who are not in the control of the other party to the contract and whose conduct was not forseen, and sometimes other risks that were not assumed by or assigned to one of the parties or anticipated by either one of them, etc. 

The classic example for me involved a ship that hit and knocked down a bridge in Buffalo and closed the waterway right before the winter 'ice-in'.  Something like 20 ships were trapped for the winter, could not unload or transport their cargoes, not get out themselves, and grain elevators, etc. could not receive their purchased commodities.  While the reported case was mainly about the suits for negligence against the ship's owner (the claims were thrown out because those kinds of damages were not "forseeable", a term of art in negligence cases, a whole 'nother topic), it serves as a good example of what the other ships and their customers and the grain elevators could use as an excuse for their non-performance.

EDIT: OK, my memory and summary above is perhaps a little flawed, but not too much.  The court's opinions - which contain a complete and detailed statement of the facts, and a very good discussion of the applicable principles of the law [including a citation to the case of Brady v. Southern Railway Co., 320 U.S. 476, 483, 64 S.Ct. 232, 88 L.Ed. 239 (1946), so we can keep this thread somewhat railroad-related  ], are at the following links:

https://law.resource.org/pub/us/case/reporter/F2/388/388.F2d.821.132.30857.html 

https://law.resource.org/pub/us/case/reporter/F2/338/338.F2d.708.238-243.28387-28392.html 

For those wiith a little spare time, I recommend these opinions (especially the 1st one) for their recitation of the facts - "You couldn't make this story up", as the saying goes - and somewhat dry legal humor.  As such opinions go, these are fairly short and comprehensible to lay persons, too. [END EDIT] 

- Paul North.     

[trackrat888]

I remember the Buffalo Incident in the 1960s. As such most ships now upload downriver.. somehow the boat got loose and hit the bridge

[AgentKid]

Paul_D_North_Jr

"Force Majeure" is broader, and can encompass such other disruptions - typically man-made

I first learned of Force Majeure almost 40 years ago when I started to work for a Natural Gas pipeline company. It encompases among other things; Acts of God, civil disobedience, insurrections, terroism, and everything else lawyers could dream up to cover their clients backsides.

I remember thinking that a lot of the wording seemed to stem out of the airline hijackings to Cuba, and the incident at the 1972 Olympics in Munich, GER. I've looked for the wordings of those Force Majeures on the internet, but the more recent versions I do find seem to be more "Politically Correct" than the ones I first remember seeing.

Bruce

 

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

In a rather extreme example of attempting to use force majeure as an excuse for non-performance:

A local limousine company got sued a few years back by a bride when the contracted-for limousine or bus didn't show up as scheduled on her wedding day.  The owner of the company attempted to defend the company's failure to perform with a force majeure excuse, to the effect that the drivers didn't show up or weren't available, the equipment broke down, was late coming back from previous assignments, etc. (none of this was related to bad weather or other plausible or reasonable justifications).  The judge didn't buy any of it, ruling that the limo company had agreed to provide the service, and these kinds of things were within its control, so the bride was entitled to some compensation.

- Paul North.    

[trackrat888]

Thanks I thought i thought it was latin buts its french

Etymology[edit]

Borrowing from French force majeure (greater force)

Etymology[edit]

Borrowing from French force majeure (greater force)t was latin but it is really French see

 

[erikem]

For me, Force Majeure was a 1979 album by Tangerine Dream...

 - Erik

[BroadwayLion]

An act of God is a hrricane, a flood, a tornado, a volcano...

Force Majoure is an act of another agent such as a war or insurection. 9-11 was not an act of God, but it was a Force Majoure.

A strike by a union is not a Force Majoure, but is an event that can be foreseen and mittigated by mangement.

ROAR

[wanswheel]

erikem

1979 album by Tangerine Dream

 

I gave it a listen, and was surprised at about 9:15.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5Zbju8IF70

Excerpt from The Heights, newspaper of Boston College, Jan. 14, 1980

Tangerine Dream has been one of the leading ensembles of electronic music since the late 1960s. Their newest album "Force Majeure" is a top notch Dream effort combining the fusionistic sounds of Jazz-Rock and the harmonic philosophies of classical music. Edgar Froese and Chris Franke, the two major contributors to the success of TD, have added a greater harmonic dimension to their music as well as containing their creativity in much shorter length compositions. "Force Majeure" effectively controls and continually changes the musical mood, and one can not help but be gathered up and spirited away by the music. Through the length of the title track, the music travels from an excited festival, through dark mystical Germanic moors, to a heaven of angelic chanting, and back to earth on a flying locomotive.

[carnej1]

wanswheel

 

 

erikem

1979 album by Tangerine Dream

 

 

 

 

I gave it a listen, and was surprised at about 9:15.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5Zbju8IF70

Excerpt from The Heights, newspaper of Boston College, Jan. 14, 1980

Tangerine Dream has been one of the leading ensembles of electronic music since the late 1960s. Their newest album "Force Majeure" is a top notch Dream effort combining the fusionistic sounds of Jazz-Rock and the harmonic philosophies of classical music. Edgar Froese and Chris Franke, the two major contributors to the success of TD, have added a greater harmonic dimension to their music as well as containing their creativity in much shorter length compositions. "Force Majeure" effectively controls and continually changes the musical mood, and one can not help but be gathered up and spirited away by the music. Through the length of the title track, the music travels from an excited festival, through dark mystical Germanic moors, to a heaven of angelic chanting, and back to earth on a flying locomotive.

 

Can we have start a railroad related Prog Rock thread?

 I would post Kraftwek's "Trans Europe Express" but they weren't really Prog..

[tree68]

carnej1

Can we have start a railroad related Prog Rock thread?

Well, there's already a thread entitled "Best Railroad Song."  The way threads morph around here, going in such a direction certainly wouldn't be out of place...

[Wizlish]

carnej1

Can we have start a railroad related Prog Rock thread?

Yes!  But start it in the 'Railroad Songs' thread, not this one.  No one would likely find it here in future...

[trackrat888]

carnej1

 

wanswheel

 

 

erikem

1979 album by Tangerine Dream

 

 

 

 

I gave it a listen, and was surprised at about 9:15.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5Zbju8IF70

Excerpt from The Heights, newspaper of Boston College, Jan. 14, 1980

Tangerine Dream has been one of the leading ensembles of electronic music since the late 1960s. Their newest album "Force Majeure" is a top notch Dream effort combining the fusionistic sounds of Jazz-Rock and the harmonic philosophies of classical music. Edgar Froese and Chris Franke, the two major contributors to the success of TD, have added a greater harmonic dimension to their music as well as containing their creativity in much shorter length compositions. "Force Majeure" effectively controls and continually changes the musical mood, and one can not help but be gathered up and spirited away by the music. Through the length of the title track, the music travels from an excited festival, through dark mystical Germanic moors, to a heaven of angelic chanting, and back to earth on a flying locomotive.

 

 

 

 

Can we have start a railroad related Prog Rock thread?

 I would post Kraftwek's "Trans Europe Express" but they weren't really Prog..

 

make great background music for train video.

[ndbprr]

Well this is totaly off topic but my homeowners insurance company just sent me a letter that I am covered for damage caused by terrorism but not including nuclear weopons. Like I would still be here if one exploded near my house.

[Wizlish]

ndbprr

Well this is totaly off topic but my homeowners insurance company just sent me a letter that I am covered for damage caused by terrorism but not including nuclear weopons

That's not good considering that the odds-on 'terrorist' strike (at least by usual-suspects pariah nations) will be a time-on-target EMP strike, probably via anonymous launch from nondescript vessels at sea, probably involving no more than three specialized thermonuclear devices.

Presumably all the damage to your electronics and so forth won't be covered, even though you'll likely see no blast, heat, radiation or fallout damage to speak of, and encounter no more than a statistical risk of either prompt or delayed damage or injury from the 'nuclear weapon' detonations themselves.

I suppose this is necessary as otherwise there would be millions of claims to satisfy... look for the issuance of gap policies to cover key electronic 'assets' in the event of EMP terrorism...

[trackrat888]

Wizlish

 

ndbprr

Well this is totaly off topic but my homeowners insurance company just sent me a letter that I am covered for damage caused by terrorism but not including nuclear weopons

 

 

That's not good considering that the odds-on 'terrorist' strike (at least by usual-suspects pariah nations) will be a time-on-target EMP strike, probably via anonymous launch from nondescript vessels at sea, probably involving no more than three specialized thermonuclear devices.

Presumably all the damage to your electronics and so forth won't be covered, even though you'll likely see no blast, heat, radiation or fallout damage to speak of, and encounter no more than a statistical risk of either prompt or delayed damage or injury from the 'nuclear weapon' detonations themselves.

I suppose this is necessary as otherwise there would be millions of claims to satisfy... look for the issuance of gap policies to cover key electronic 'assets' in the event of EMP terrorism...

 

Do they know something that we dont? Could U send a PDF of the letter?

[ndbprr]

No I already shreaded it.

[Wizlish]

Here is a page (from 2013) that discusses a number of perceived concerns the insurance industry might have about EMP:

http://www.wnd.com/2013/07/now-lloyds-of-london-warns-of-emp/

Note that a Carrington Event qualifies as an act of God, but a terrorist strike would be force majeure.  The specific question for the insurance company in question is whether a terrorist strike using nuclear weapons 'technically' to generate a Compton-scattered pulse comes under the exception for nuclear-weapons use in the more common sense of WMDs.