The University of Michigan ("Michigan") vs Michigan State ("State") rivalry is a little more of the friendly sort, I would opine. There are certainly rabid fans on both sides, but I'm not sure it reaches the realm of outright hatred.
Michigan vs Ohio State, however...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
gardendance That's hard for us out of staters to figure. It's kind of like when Sarah Palin expected her audience in Pittsburg to appreciate her congratulating the Phillies for their winning 2008 series. Florida State Univ disliking University of Florida sounds a lot to me like something out of Life of Bryan Judean People’s Front Versus The People’s Front Of Judea. What next, should Penn State fans hate University of Pennsylvania, assuming U of P would ever put out a decent footbal team?
That's hard for us out of staters to figure. It's kind of like when Sarah Palin expected her audience in Pittsburg to appreciate her congratulating the Phillies for their winning 2008 series.
Florida State Univ disliking University of Florida sounds a lot to me like something out of Life of Bryan Judean People’s Front Versus The People’s Front Of Judea. What next, should Penn State fans hate University of Pennsylvania, assuming U of P would ever put out a decent footbal team?
There are 3 catagories of fans in Florida. University of Florida, Florida State University & Miami University.
They all have football National Championships to back up their 'street cred' and their animosity toward each other. Additionally the animosity is bouyed by the conflict between the Southeast Conference (SEC) and the Atlantic Coast Conference (ACC).
My highlight days while living in Florida, where the Saturday's where all three lost.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
gardendance Other than the Dallas Cowboys, which of course are the devil's spawn, I never understood why anyone should hate any sports team.
Other than the Dallas Cowboys, which of course are the devil's spawn, I never understood why anyone should hate any sports team.
My wife, a rabid Florida State Univ.fan, would add to the list of Satan's spawn. According to her, University of Florida is on the list.
As a 13 year resident of Chicago and 7 year resident of Omaha go for it!
By golly, I believe Greyhounds is serious!
dakotafred, are you sure you don't want to reconsider that move to Florida?
I get more sure that I want to move every day. This winter was not as severe as last year. It also came later. But it was bad enough. I can get through the northern Illinois winters OK, I'm just getting real tired of them.
I'll watch DVD's of trains. I'll catch a couple White Sox games when they play in Tampa. There will be $130 in the budget each year to buy the Sox telecasts on MLB TV.
I'll join a model railroad club. I'm modeling the C&IM circa 1950. I've got good running model engines. One for each type they operated then. 'Cept the 2-10-2's. I've got two of them. (#600 and #603). DCC on all but the 0-8-0. I just don't really have anywhere to operate.
Gonna' sit out on my screened in porch and work on my trains with the Sox game on. I'll never experience 15 below zero again. And the State of Illinois can take its corruption and high property taxes and put 'em where the sun don't shine.
My targeted last date working is December 31, 2016.
trackrat888 Trucking companies as far as I know do not use Ramsey or Commoditiy bases pricing
Trucking companies as far as I know do not use Ramsey or Commoditiy bases pricing
Trucking companies have a different cost structure than railroads. Fixed costs are a much larger component of railroad costs than they are in trucking.
Around here we have t-shirts that say "I support only 2 football teams, The Eagles and whoever beats the Cowboys."
There is only one baseball team to cheer for - the one beating the Yankees!
dakotafredBoth the Sox and the Cubs -- if you care about the latter; I hear most Sox fans don't -- are supposed to be ascendant.
Both teams will be greatly improved this season (I hope!). Although I grew up as primarily a Sox fan, I never have understood the hatred for the Northsiders. But I grew up in the 'burbs, so maybe it's a city thing, just like our hating Glenbard West.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
greyhounds There are two things that I enjoy passing the time with. One is a good book. Usually about railroad (or transportation) economics or economic history. The other is a good baseball game with the White Sox triumphant. Plenty of both seem on the way. (If the Sox can just get it together this year.)
Both the Sox and the Cubs -- if you care about the latter; I hear most Sox fans don't -- are supposed to be ascendant. Given this, and that you already live at Railroad Central, are you sure you don't want to reconsider that move to Florida?
greyhounds, actually more seriously, if you're reading a book how will you have time to participate in the gripping and inciteful internet exchanges we all enjoy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mussel_Slough_Tragedy
That's probably where I interpreted 'reroute makes land worthless', wiki says "Those who had been building homes along the previous course were distraught" and I thought lowered property value, although I can see my saying worthless was exaggerating, was what was making them distraught.
I wonder who were those who built the homes. Were they folks who sucessfully went throught the homesteading process, or those who had settled on the parcels the fed had deeded to the railroad? I thought the main complaint was those who had settled on railroad land who interpreted "$2.50 and up per acre" to mean $2.50 per acre would be the price the railroad would take, who then balked when it came time for the actual sale and the railroad wanted more than $2.50, who then complained about getting evicted.
gardendance loose track as to where in this thread's 2 pages or the several links I clicked or references I googled, but I see the railroad accused of both inserting its steel tentacles into land the heroic farmers developed and deciding to build on a different route than their original proposal and so make that same land worthless.
I'll guess you're talking about this:
https://books.google.com/books?id=GXQpAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA125#v=onepage&q&f=false
The route did get changed (legally) from a coast route to a San Joaquin Valley route. But I don't see any reference anywhere to land being made worthless by the change.
This is from the book:
By Stuart Daggett
I've just ordered a reprint of the 1922 book.
All these book purchases are leaving me in quite the pickle. I'm going to have to get a 2nd job to pay for the books. But If I'm working two jobs, when will I have time to read the books? (It's a joke.)
There are two things that I enjoy passing the time with. One is a good book. Usually about railroad (or transportation) economics or economic history. The other is a good baseball game with the White Sox triumphant. Plenty of both seem on the way. (If the Sox can just get it together this year.)
I loose track as to where in this thread's 2 pages or the several links I clicked or references I googled, but I see the railroad accused of both inserting its steel tentacles into land the heroic farmers developed and deciding to build on a different route than their original proposal and so make that same land worthless.
greyhoundsThe Octopus and similar works may give us insight in to the popular mood of the day.
And that's about it. Even "history" books are sometimes suspect.
To really understand "based on a true story" fiction (such as the book in question) one must study the world around it at the time.
Not much different than reading Shakespeare, who apparently was quite the punster, if you understand the humor of his day.
schlimmPopular fiction is a way of seeing back into time, same as the Annals of Congress, letters, newspapers, etc.. Perhaps the real reason some on here object is they do not agree with what the themes of the novels were
I certainly do not agree with the theme of "The Octopus". But that, in and of itself, is irrelevant. It's a work of fiction and a fiction writer is certainly free to write as he/she desires.
What I object to is this fictional tale being treated as if it is a factual history. That, it is not.
I'll read Deverell's book when it arrives. If there are any differences with Orsi's book I'll say so.
Orsi and Deverell are PhD historians. Norris, of The Octopus, was a fiction writer. Big difference.
The Octopus and similar works may give us insight in to the popular mood of the day. But that was then, this is now. We now can, and should, deal in factual information.
The Southern Pacific did significantly help make life in California (and other parts of the west) better. To see them fictionally vilified with that fiction being accecpted as unquestioned fact is disgusting.
Popular fiction is a way of seeing back into time, same as the Annals of Congress, letters, newspapers, etc.. Perhaps the real reason some on here object is they do not agree with what the themes of the novels were? Uncle Tom's Cabin was a major, anti-slavery influence in its time. I wonder what bobwilcox's objection is to that?
What's the problem with that? I read "The Scarlet Letter" for high school US History, not American literature. My father thought that history class was an appropriate place for that book. Including these books on a reading list for history classes gives the student a better insight into the culture and ethos of that period. History is much more than a collection of facts and events.
Some works of fiction have driven government policy. If you read Uncle Tom's Cabin, The Octupus or The Jungle you can obtain a deeper understanding of American history. Sinclair Lewis wrote the Jungle to advance the cause of Socialism. Instead his readers got sick and the Fed. pased the first regulations on food safety. The Octupus was taught in CA public schools as history not polemics. That just condems the quality of history instruction in CA. I wonder if they teach the Grapes of Wrath as history.
Hope that helps. NU is great, and maybe the Transportation Library can get you access to the main library's history journals and academic search engines.
schlimm I no longer have journal access (other than clinical psychology) and you won't either in your library. However, several authors who write about California history come to mind: Bill Deverell and Kevin Starr at USC and the late Gerald Nash. You could even look up the classic by H. H. Bancroft: Hist. of CA(1888). Populism is treated in J.D. Hicks, The Populist Revolt.
I no longer have journal access (other than clinical psychology) and you won't either in your library. However, several authors who write about California history come to mind: Bill Deverell and Kevin Starr at USC and the late Gerald Nash. You could even look up the classic by H. H. Bancroft: Hist. of CA(1888). Populism is treated in J.D. Hicks, The Populist Revolt.
OK, I just ordered a hardback used copy of
I ordered it from Amazon for a total of $9.24 including shipping and handling. When it gets here I'll read it and report on what it says.
I do have library privilges at the Northwestern U Transportation Library. So I should be able to get to just about anything transportation related.
schlimmTry google scholar. But the difficulty is access to journals, since that is where most good research is.
Aw come on. Give me a name or two. What journal? When?
Let me worry about access. I can probably get access through a library.
Try google scholar. But the difficulty is access to journals, since that is where most good research is.
Interviews with the settlers 20 years later are better than none at all. It is a source of inormation to be considered in context rather than dismissed. Corsi uses mostly records in SP archives. Valuable, but also one-sided. The best historians try to get as broad a picture as possible and draw conclusions, not have an preconceived agenda and cherry-pick for support.
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