I have a question that I don't think I have ever seen brought up.
Why do these trains not have five buffer cars next to the engines? Seeing how volatile this stuff is, it may not make a lot of difference, but, it sure looks warranted to me. I can't find my HazMat book to look up what they have classed this stuff as.
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Euclid Firelock76 The plain fact of the matter is the oil has to be moved and it's going to be moved, one way or another. No-one with any sense of responsibility wants gasolene at $4 or more a gallon. Rail safety issues should be and have to be addressed, but for now no-one's going to stop those oil trains. You may be right, but nothing would surprise me these days. The country needs oil, but it does not have to be Bakken oil. There are plenty of people in this country who would prefer $4 per gallon gasoline, or even higher because they want the country to reduce consumption of fossil fuels.
Firelock76 The plain fact of the matter is the oil has to be moved and it's going to be moved, one way or another. No-one with any sense of responsibility wants gasolene at $4 or more a gallon. Rail safety issues should be and have to be addressed, but for now no-one's going to stop those oil trains.
No-one with any sense of responsibility wants gasolene at $4 or more a gallon.
Rail safety issues should be and have to be addressed, but for now no-one's going to stop those oil trains.
North Dakota is in the process of mandating that the Bakken Crude be treated to reduce its explosive volatility for transportation.
http://www.startribune.com/local/285301951.html
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
EuclidThere are plenty of people in this country who would prefer $4 per gallon gasoline, or even higher because they want the country to reduce consumption of fossil fuels.
Correct. We call those people Neanderthals.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
ROBERT WILLISONIsn't pretty common knowledge that most tank cars are not built to new safety regulations that will take a effect . these regulations require new cars to be strengthen and have additional safety applicances on them to reduce the chance of explosion . the olders cars have to be modified or phased out. Hence the huge back log of tank car orders.
There are problems with odering new cars. BNSF, on its own hook, ordered 5000 new oil cars with the latest and greatest safety features. The risk that they took, is that the new cars have not been approved yet. Well, how can they be, if they were not even built yet. If everybody is going to wait until the FRA approves new cars we will sitll be waiting in the year 2030.
BNSF bit the bullet and ordered something. LION wrote a leter to GATX and suggested something. So it seems likely that something will happen, but what the left and or the Federal Regime thinks of it is another matter.
In the mean time, the oil has to move, and will move. And the tree huggers can crawl into a hole, and pull sand over their heads and make belive that they have the exclusive answers.
Its probably to early for any one to know how the accident occurred. Don't be so confident Broadway, the industry is just one major incident away from disaster. It won't be the tree huggers shutting things diwn but the silent majority wading in. Let's hope things stay safe out thier.but then again hope is not a substitute for a plan.
The trains comply with Federal hazardous material placement rules. Tank car loads of flammable liquids have to be the 6th car from the engines, train length permitting, but no closer than the second car for the engine. Since a unit train of hazmat has no cover naturally, all the cars are hazardous loads, train length does not permit the hazmat to be the 6th car from the engine. Therefore the railroad must add at least one car (not part of the shipment) as cover.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Euclid What has never been clear to me, however, is the actual performance of the stronger tank cars. Will they be strong enough? What would have happened in yesterday’s derailment if the tank cars were all built to the new standard of strength?
This time, it wasn't a "big" disaster but what if it happens going through a heavily populated area such as a Chicago suburb. Say, Hinsdale Illinois by the Hinsdale hospital. The railroads are literaly sitting on a ticking time bomb hauling this Baken Crude.
When was the last time a CSX, Sperry, FRA or other complete inspection car went over this section of track? What is the weight of the rail ? Last time surfaced ? etc ? If the derailment happened due to defective track maybe higher standards will be imposed ?
With the fires burning out, interesting how the cars all came to rest, as if some modler lined them all up side by side! Could the newer "CPC-1232" cars have a coupler design flaw that doesn't allow the cars to stay end-to-end? I'll put that out here for discussion.
One other point, local (Central PA) CBS news stated these tanker trains are "bomb trains" hinting these types of shippments should be band. Gee, if there can't build a pipe line to move the oil, guess will either stop drilling, ship it to Canada or start moving by truck. Trucks are a 'safe' method of transportation as they drive around populated areas. Right?
seppburgh2stop drilling
This would be the preferred solution in some people's opinion....
Like many, however, they are probably woefully ignorant of exactly what role such products play in their lives...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
seppburgh2 One other point, local (Central PA) CBS news stated these tanker trains are "bomb trains" hinting these types of shippments should be band. Gee, if there can't build a pipe line to move the oil, guess will either stop drilling, ship it to Canada or start moving by truck. Trucks are a 'safe' method of transportation as they drive around populated areas. Right?
They are using a bad analogy - this is a real 'Bomb Train'
http://specialcollection.dotlibrary.dot.gov/Document?db=DOT-RAILROAD&query=%28select+3967%29
Its because of the potential for incidents like this one, and the increase in rail traffic from the oil trains and the coal trains, here in WA state, that BNSF spent $125 million in 2013 for rail improvements. This year BNSF plans to spend 189 million on rail improvements across in WA state. One of the improvements will be replacing a 107 year old railroad bridge in my local town. There are as many as 35 trains that travel over that bridge in a 24 hour period with multiple oil and coal trains each week. They'll especially need to improve the rails in this area if the Tesoro oil plant goes in at the Port of Vancouver, WA, because the oil trains will definitely increase. I think BNSF is being pro-active in making these improvements to prevent such incidents, and to prepare for the increase in all rail traffic.
Trains Northwest
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7z2SF15sZ3pfV_VymvNf9A
Does anybody have information on the posted track speed for freight trains at that location? Would the train have likely been traveling at the posted track speed at that location, or some lesser rate based on operating rules for the location?
BaltACD seppburgh2 One other point, local (Central PA) CBS news stated these tanker trains are "bomb trains" hinting these types of shippments should be band. Gee, if there can't build a pipe line to move the oil, guess will either stop drilling, ship it to Canada or start moving by truck. Trucks are a 'safe' method of transportation as they drive around populated areas. Right? They are using a bad analogy - this is a real 'Bomb Train' http://specialcollection.dotlibrary.dot.gov/Document?db=DOT-RAILROAD&query=%28select+3967%29
I read the story about that. Days of destruction that made a war zone look good.
Norm
seppburgh2 With the fires burning out, interesting how the cars all came to rest, as if some modler lined them all up side by side! Could the newer "CPC-1232" cars have a coupler design flaw that doesn't allow the cars to stay end-to-end? I'll put that out here for discussion.
The couplers are designed to keep from by-passing each other, not to keep the cars rigidly in line. The couplers have to allow the cars to be a some angle to each other or else they would never be able to go around a curve. Once the cars reach that angle (and if they are derailed ther is nothing to keep them in line) the forces are large enough cause them to accordian. One also has to ask if them being acordianned is a bad thing. In the derailment the kinetic energy of stopping a train in a short distance has to be absorbed somehow. Are the cars substantively damaged by being accordianed or is that really better from the standpoint of allowing the train to "crumple", absorbing the energy in the least destructive way?
“Gordon Wren Jr., Rockland's Fire and Emergency Service director, said it was "worrisome" that the purportedly tougher tank cars failed.”
The new design is "tougher' not impenetrable. Actually I read reports that seemed to indicate that the newer design may be working. One quote from somebody on the scene said that the every 30 minutes to an hour a car would explode. While that obviously isn't good, that on face value seems to indicate that the better thermal protection is working since it is taking a lot longer for the cars exposed to heat to "cook off". In the 111 derailments the cars were exploding within minutes of being exposed to the fires. Thermal protection doesn't prevent the cars from being overheated, it delays it. Much like in a home drywall is rated at about a half hour. A fire will take a half hour to burn through a wall covered in drywall. It doesn't prevent the fire from spreading, it buys time for the responders to arrive and start taking steps to put the fire out.
Until they dig through the wreckage and figure out which car was the first to be breached and what caused it to be breached, we won't know really if the cars worked as designed or not.
This is the standard arrangement. The couple can swivel in the yoke. Slop in the mating surfaces in the head aren't needed for going around curves, in fact titelock couplers used on passenger cars mate solidly with no slop in any direction.
A shelf coupler that's used on the tank cars has lip that keeps the couplers coupled even if one car moves vertically relative to the other.
Derailment forces can rip and break all sorts of parts once things get to jack knifing. You're not going to design car parts that withstand derailments, but some can help derailments progress in less dangerous ways.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
narig01 Were there any problems like we have today?
Yeah, we were completely ignorant of the effects of pollutants in our water back in the 40s :(
Shelf coupler
narig01Has anyone knowledge of the large number of oil shipments during WWII when German submarines were sinking US tankers off the Atlantic coast. Were there any problems like we have today? For a number of years during the war oil was moving from Texas to the Northeast in quantity. Thx IGN
I have seen pictures of derailments involving these oil trains with a pretty good fire involved. News of these events was usually suppressed due to wartime censorship. Tank car construction and size were quite different during the WW2 era.
BigJim I have a question that I don't think I have ever seen brought up. Why do these trains not have five buffer cars next to the engines? Seeing how volatile this stuff is, it may not make a lot of difference, but, it sure looks warranted to me. I can't find my HazMat book to look up what they have classed this stuff as.
If it wasn't a unit train it would need to be 5 cars from the engines. The unit train changes the rules a bit.
Randy
blue streak 1 When was the last time a CSX, Sperry, FRA or other complete inspection car went over this section of track? What is the weight of the rail ? Last time surfaced ? etc ? If the derailment happened due to defective track maybe higher standards will be imposed ?
Nothing, not even a preliminary cause, has been released yet as to cause. Cold weather has a debilitating effect on more than just track. (we had a major ruckus near here with pipeline installation under track causing massive voids and improper use of drilling fluids causing a derailment and all the local media could focus on was soft/failing fill)
And we can't rule out an undetected flaw in the running gear of one of the cars, either, even if they are nearly new cars.
seppburgh2With the fires burning out, interesting how the cars all came to rest, as if some modler lined them all up side by side! Could the newer "CPC-1232" cars have a coupler design flaw that doesn't allow the cars to stay end-to-end? I'll put that out here for discussion.
The LION has recomended TRANSIT type tight couplers. There is no movement or release at all between these couplers, and they connect air and electrical portions in a single package. My engineer friend who is familiar with commuter operations assures me that these newer couplers (as opposed to the lighter couplers used on cars cuch as the R-32) are fully qulified by the FRA and are fully substantial for heavy freight work. And (in theroy) will not come apart in a collision.
Such couplers would keep the train in line, and would be able to transmit load data from the train back to the locomotive. Actually, a dedicated "sand car" would be used on this train, making a standard knuckle coupler to the locomotives and carring all of the electronic gear for monitoring the rest of the train.
LION proposes TRACK BRAKES for parking. Push a button in the cab, and all of the track brakes apply so that there is no chance of a parked consist of moving.
LION submitted plan to GATX and had not heard back from them, but then he did not expect to hear back from them. But you never know when they may look at a plan and enter it in the competition for a design for safe trains. If ever it were made, it would not look at all like what I envisioned, after all, LION is a big cat in a zoo, and not a engineer of any sort. But if you need a cat, do let me know.
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