Steam excursions routinely include a modern Amtrak locomotive behind the featured steam engine for head-end power and as fail-safe motive power in case of mechanical problems. The problem is that the platinum mist Amtrak unit usually sticks out like a sore thumb between the black steam engine and the usually somber-colored passengers cars. Since providing a nostalgic visual experience (plus nifty photo opps) is one of the primary functions of big-time steam excursions, it seems that the aesthetics of the consist--especially at the head end--should be a priority.
Amtrak should paint one or two engines black for assignment whenever possible to excursions. Some tasteful white pinstripes and vintage Railroad Roman or New York Central Gothic lettering ("Amtrak" in large letters, "--Steam Excursion Service--" smaller), would complete the look. The front end of the P40/P42 could have broad white BN-style stripes for visibility if leading in regular service, since the relatively flat front surface isn't very visible when coupled behind another unit.
The black units would blend into excursion consists better and would still perform their usual functions in both excursion and regular service. Their presence on regular trains would make a good conversation piece--might even introduce some layman to the idea that steam excursions exist and that he/she ought to check them out!
Getting those units in place for excursions would require some planning, but excursions are planned far enough in advance that it should be possible to have one of them on hand most of the time. Amtrak could even charge a moderate extra "black engine" fee to guarantee that one of the dedicated engines was on hand for a given excursion. The NRHS (which I hear is looking for relevance these days) or a consortium of groups that run steam excursions should make a plan to pitch the concept to Amtrak and might even offer to underwrite the cost of the new paint jobs.
What does the railfan community think?
Oh yes, what frequent poster Juniatha has referred to as "The Panic Diesel", something to fall back on if and when (apparantly someone thinks the latter) the steam locomotive breaks down.
Funny thing is, it was the diesel that failed on a Union Pacific excursion! The thing didn't shut down when it was supposed to and continued to push 844 resulting in flat spots on the steam engines drivers!
No matter. Subdued diesels on a steam excursion isn't a bad idea, but it's not likely to happen. Better any diesels in the lash-up allowing the excursion to run than no excursion at all. Not photogenic, but I can live with it if it means the steamers get access to the main line of the host railroads.
Firelock76 Oh yes, what frequent poster Juniatha has referred to as "The Panic Diesel", something to fall back on if and when (apparantly someone thinks the latter) the steam locomotive breaks down. Funny thing is, it was the diesel that failed on a Union Pacific excursion! The thing didn't shut down when it was supposed to and continued to push 844 resulting in flat spots on the steam engines drivers! No matter. Subdued diesels on a steam excursion isn't a bad idea, but it's not likely to happen. Better any diesels in the lash-up allowing the excursion to run than no excursion at all. Not photogenic, but I can live with it if it means the steamers get access to the main line of the host railroads.
That is why photo composition and croping were invented.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Absolutely, photo composition and cropping, as I understand it much easier now in this digital age than it used to be.
,
Aren't most diesels thier to provide head end power rather than horse power. I been on many excursions where the excursion operator provides a power car. In any case I don't see Amtrak needing to use it resources to provide a better shot for rail fan pictures.
As far as head-end power is concerned it depend on the circumstances. The Norfolk-Southern excursions I rode in the '90s had a head-end power car. The C&O 614 excursions in New Jersey in the late '90s had the same.
It's also been said the diesel is there for dynamic braking, but the aformentioned excursions didn't seem to need it for that either.
The idea is not without historical precedent. I believe the Clinchfield had a B unit painted to match their passenger equipment. The steam locomotive had a controller for the Diesel.
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I was on two main line steam excursions this year, neither had diesel. Both had hep power cars to supply power to the cars without gen sets.
I don't think a 18 car passenger train requires dynamic braking. Certainly when steam was king and handling high speed passenger trains on a daily basis thier was no need .
ROBERT WILLISONI don't think a 18 car passenger train requires dynamic braking.
I use dynamic braking with three car trains if I have it available...
Maybe you would.
ROBERT WILLISON I was on two main line steam excursions this year, neither had diesel. Both had hep power cars to supply power to the cars without gen sets. I don't think a 18 car passenger train requires dynamic braking. Certainly when steam was king and handling high speed passenger trains on a daily basis thier was no need .
Engineers trained nowadays would bet totally lost if they didn't have operating dynmaics - it is the system they have been trained on. Using air brakes is something to bring the train to a actual stop after using the dynamics to control the train.
tree68 The idea is not without historical precedent. I believe the Clinchfield had a B unit painted to match their passenger equipment. The steam locomotive had a controller for the Diesel.
Clinchfield had a pair of B units painted Pullman green in the consists of their 'steam' excursions, right behind the 4-6-0 that couldn't have started those trains on level track, never mind pulled them up the Clinchfield's grades. #1 was there to provide smoke, whistle and burning coal smell.
I understand that controller is now in the B&O Museum collection.
Chuck
ROBERT WILLISON Maybe you would.
The profile I run on is anything but flat and includes a three mile hill of nearly 2%, and a five mile hill of 1.1%, as well as another stretch of five miles of varying grades with a net loss of some 200' in elevation. And that's just on our line, never mind that of the shortline we are a tenant on.
Not all of our locomotives have dynamics, so running on air is still necessary.
On a line with significant grades, having dynamic brake available will save a lot of brake shoe replacement. That takes material and, even more importantly, manpower and time. CPR felt the savings were significant enough that they retrofitted dynamic brakes on the F-units that were powering the Royal Canadian Pacific tour train.
One brake shoe does not amount to much, but you are looking at a lot of wheels, multiplied by two shoes each, on a lengthy passenger train. For the RCP that amounted to something like 232 brakeshoes; I think many had to be changed after each loop. Dynamic brakes dramatically extend brake shoe life, and no doubt also benefit corresponding wheel life.
In the steam era dynamic brakes were not available so the railroads had no choice. Once they became an option with diesels most roads with heavy grades adopted them enthusiastically.
John
There is the nice looking red, white, blue and silver Amtrak #42, the Veteran's Tribute locomotive. Perhaps, an "Amerian Heritage" locomotive, or "George Washington", or something else could be painted next.
tree68 ROBERT WILLISON Maybe you would. The profile I run on is anything but flat and includes a three mile hill of nearly 2%, and a five mile hill of 1.1%, as well as another stretch of five miles of varying grades with a net loss of some 200' in elevation. And that's just on our line, never mind that of the shortline we are a tenant on. Not all of our locomotives have dynamics, so running on air is still necessary.
IN a recent Forum discussion on the ICRR's City of New Orleans and traffic at it's more or less mid-point in Memphis;see lind @ http://condrenrails.com/MRP/MemphisCentralStation/IC-Memphis-Pass-Pixs.htm
a Poster, ( CMStP&P) had provided a linked photo essay, and captioned under one of the photos was the following item: FTL"...The "Fire-boy" is already counting his miles and money before they have even left town. It was will be a quick 167 mile trip to Cairo, IL and they will be there in less than 3 hours, in time for supper. They will return south on Number 5, "The Panama Limited/Magnolia Star" around 11 pm and be back home, in Memphis, by 2:00am. Not bad; a round trip in less than 12 hours. The young man might pay close attention to his "old head" engineer across the cab. The two most senior engineers who "owned" these jobs on the "Fulton District" were Raymond Brown and N. A. "Runt" Thompson. Both men completed over 50 years of faithful service with the "Main Line of Mid-America". Engineer Raymond Brown was also known as "Two Pound Brown". He would make long, gradual, oceanliner slow downs, in "two pound reductions" of the automatic brake. Once he was clear of the restriction, he never had a speed limit. It may have 79 mph in the employee timetable, but that was just a passing number to him. Rest assured, this train will arrive "on time" at the next crew change at Cairo. (Kay-row)..."
I am not sure what the line profile of the ICRR is from memphis to Cairo,Il. is, but I'd bet there are some areas of fairly, stiff gradients. The IC ran many of its passenger trains with long consists, and 'plenty' of power ( at leas two 'E' units, and in many cases, there were four units on the head end.) Even the freights seemed to have plenty of power (I regularly saw two to four or more on the Road Freights that passed the area where I lived). I am fairly certain, that there were not too many,'early' IC Diesels with 'Dynamics' (?).
I believe that the first IC diesels equipped with dynamic brakes were the second order of GP40's in about 1967.
Was it common practice to use dynamic braking on passenger trains? If so what roads use it.
Are Amtrak locomotives equipped with dynamic braking ?
ROBERT WILLISON Was it common practice to use dynamic braking on passenger trains? If so what roads use it. Are Amtrak locomotives equipped with dynamic braking ?
Robert Williston: In response to your question about Dynamic Braking on Passenger Trains. Here are links that provides some information as to which roads used "E" Units with Dynamic Brakes and which did not. See link to Classic Trains Forum @ http://cs.trains.com/ctr/f/3/t/205828.aspx
That should give you some help.
Also this link referencing use of Dynamic brakes should add some information as to their use. From a TRAINS article . See Link @
http://trn.trains.com/railroads/abcs-of-railroading/2006/05/dynamic-braking "Dynamic braking" Power for the (down) grade By Robert S. McGonigal | May 1, 2006
Another reason for using dynamics on passenger trains is that they are comparatively light. During our Polar Express runs this year, we were running a 12 car train, plus an engine at each end. So from the point of view of the controlling engine, it was 13 cars.
We are limited to 30 MPH on that track, and oftimes on the return trip from the North Pole will (try to) hold 15-20 MPH while the big guy visits with all the kids.
Having that many operating brakes means you'll slow down pretty quickly. "Riding a set" simply isn't possible - even a couple of notches isn't enough to overcome the retarding effect of all those axles. So you do a lot of cycle braking (set, release, set, etc), which has hazards of its own.
Dynamics mean you can simply modulate the braking power to hold the desired speed. So much smoother.
Zeeke Amtrak should paint one or two engines black for assignment whenever possible to excursions. Some tasteful white pinstripes and vintage Railroad Roman or New York Central Gothic lettering ("Amtrak" in large letters, "--Steam Excursion Service--" smaller), would complete the look. The front end of the P40/P42 could have broad white BN-style stripes for visibility if leading in regular service...
Amtrak should paint one or two engines black for assignment whenever possible to excursions. Some tasteful white pinstripes and vintage Railroad Roman or New York Central Gothic lettering ("Amtrak" in large letters, "--Steam Excursion Service--" smaller), would complete the look. The front end of the P40/P42 could have broad white BN-style stripes for visibility if leading in regular service...
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
Yuck! I don't like it at all, looks like a quicky modification to the Penn Central basic black.
Thanks, D. Carleton, for dragging this thread back to the original topic!
I hadn't seen that black Amtrak scheme before, but I agree with Firelock76 that it's probably not the way to go for this application.
Back in 1954, I was on the B&O's National Limited in the hills of West VA and the conductor set up the "Retainers" as we started to go down a hill. Watching that train go down the hill with the brakes shooting fire was a sight I wish I had had a camera to capture. And I recall frieght trains had to stop at the top of a grade and have the retainers set before descending. With the advent of dynamic braking and newer brake pipe regulators, are retainers still used today?
FYI.
Back in 1978 CPR had two 2 B units in the consist with CP 2860, the latter having a controller in the cab with MU 27 pin jumpers btwn the tenders and the tank car to the Bs.
http://www.railpictures.net/photo/356577/
The second tender was a 'coal' tender and steam trailing from left front corner of coal space is exhaust from small duplex pump transferring water forward into lead tender.
Another factor is that if they use the Diesels for much of the work, the steam locomotive can travel that much further between water and fuel stops.
Thank You
A similar situation occurred in Australia with the "Western Endeavour" special celebrating the standard-gauge transcon route. An NSWGR Hudson trailed a Commonwealth Railways CL-class diesel across the desert, with the Hudson driver using just enough steam to provide lubrication to the moving parts in the pistons and steam lines.
Sam can you resend the link on rods which operated passenger units with dynamic braking its no opening for me.
Do you if Amtrak units are equipped with dynamic braking?
Another steam locomotive to receive a Diesel Controller was BC Govt. 1077 ( MLW 1923 ) shown here with a BC Rail Diesel behind the two tanks cars.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/msdwilkie/8419297282/sizes/k/in/photostream/
There is a large suction hose w/ strainer beneath tender on left side for a steam syphon beneath cab for lifting water from lineside creeks when locomotive still in logging service.
http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/photos/logging/M&B_1077.jpg
https://www.flickr.com/photos/37908073@N04/4722814429/in/set-72157621907745645
The Diesel Controller was removed and was fitted to CN 2141 @ Kamloops.
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/2/4/2/6242.1199581200.jpg
CN 2141 ( CLC 1912 ) running in reverse. Note MU fixtures on right rear of tender. Ditto ditch lights.
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=244376&nseq=9
Thank You.
I'm not sure a black locomotive would be the best for Amtrak. As there is not an excursion going on every weekend then the locomotive would be used in regular service as well. I'm not sure an all black loco would be an imgae Amtrak wants but then again how many comuters accutally care or see what thier train is powered by. The other proplem is getting said "excursion" locomotive to the area where is will be oppearting. If the loco is not close to the excurion location it can be a hassle to get one locomotive to a destaination on a railroad already with equipment shoratages. However the idea of a more excurion appropriate diesel locomotive does appeal to me.Dynamic braking goes a long way to keep wear & tear off you steam locomotives. That said there are a lot of enginners out there who don't know proper train control with air brakes alone simply beacuse they have always been trained in a world with dynamic braking.
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