What is your favorite "railroad approved watch?"

[jeffhergert]

Overmod

 

 

jeffhergert

I don't want my watch sent anywhere for repair.

 

 

Here's a guide to do it yourself, or to make sure the right things are done:

 

http://linuxfocus.org/~guido/hamilton-992b/TM_9-1575.pdf

The specific technical instructions for 992Bs are pp.84-193

 Here are some picture details

http://www.rdrop.com/~jsexton/watches/museum/hamiltonc415382.html

 

Thanks for the links.  I don't think I'll be doing any "DIY" though.  Taking it apart wouldn't be a problem.  Putting it all back, that will be a problem.

One of my co-workers collects pocket watches.  He was at an auction where a set of watchmaker's tools and parts were on the block.  I think he said it went as a package and went quite high.  I think he also has a Hamilton salesman's demonstrator watch that has a crystal cover on the back.

For those who may have worked across two time zones, there was an option for having two hour hands.  One was black and one was red.  For railroad purposes, the time zone changes would be at a division point.  Most crews probably wouldn't cross the line, but there were interdivisional runs, usually passenger that might.  In addition, dispatchers might have a territory on both sides.

Jeff

[Overmod]

Flintlock76

Well I do  have a Hamilton, "The Watch of Railroad Accuracy," but it's not railroad,

4992Bs are full railroad grade, with the addition of the sweep hand.  Not all of them have the GCT hour-wheel modification like the one pictured.

I believe a fair number of 4992Bs were converted from government service, some with the sweepwork removed, and sold for private (often railroad) service.  As I recall, yours has a white 12-hour dial and in that form might have been 'accepted' on a number of railroads as such... how well do you know the provenance?

[Flintlock76]

Well I do  have a Hamilton, "The Watch of Railroad Accuracy," but it's not railroad, it's one of these:

https://www.thepocketwatchguy.com/product/gtc/

You can find a lot of good stuff at gunshows, and not just guns!

[Overmod]

jeffhergert

I don't want my watch sent anywhere for repair.

Here's a guide to do it yourself, or to make sure the right things are done:

http://linuxfocus.org/~guido/hamilton-992b/TM_9-1575.pdf

The specific technical instructions for 992Bs are pp.84-193

 Here are some picture details

http://www.rdrop.com/~jsexton/watches/museum/hamiltonc415382.html

[jeffhergert]

adkrr64

Thanks, Overmod. 

Since timetable and train order operations are almost non-existent these days, why would an accurate watch be necessary in a modern operation? Is it just for FRA hours of service? I'm having trouble figuring out why a watch that was, say, 2 or 3 minutes off would cause a significant problem.

 

There are still elements of operation that use time.  Beginning and ending of MOW exlusive work zones, signal suspensions, time limits on track warrants, track and time, and other permits, etc.

That being said, the watch standards have been very much relaxed because of some differences in how the end of time limits are handled.  In the "old days" if there was a specific end time for main track authorization, if you couldn't be clear and couldn't contact the dispatcher/control operator to extend that authority you had better be prepared to flag trains.  Trains were going to run when that time expired.

Now, if you have an authority with a time limit, if you can't be clear or get into contact to extend the time limit, the authority is automatically extended until the holder releases the authority to the dispatcher/control operator.

Time is still revelant, but not maybe to the extent it once was.

Jeff

[jeffhergert]

The 16 size requirement did not go away with the advent of wrist watches.  The 16 size requirement was for pocket watches only.

The time interval requirement of checking of watches by inspectors changed over time.  The last that I saw under the "railroad approved" era was 24 months.  

Jeff

[adkrr64]

Thanks, Overmod. 

Since timetable and train order operations are almost non-existent these days, why would an accurate watch be necessary in a modern operation? Is it just for FRA hours of service? I'm having trouble figuring out why a watch that was, say, 2 or 3 minutes off would cause a significant problem.

[Overmod]

Progressive answer, as the little weasels at IT appear to be playing with the site code this morning, so I apologize for seeming incoherence or repetition:

Most of your answer will come, rightly, from current railroaders who know what's required.

Here is some technical background (keep checking as I have to edit repeatedly before the site randomly erases...)

Any 32768Hz quartz movement that passes QC and initial aging is within COSC spec for 'chronometer' precision (which is also within the old Ball railroad accuracy spec, 30 seconds a week permitted deviation).  It is my understanding that 'railroad approved' refers to the design of the dial, hands, and (when provided) illumination, not to greater accurization of the movement itself (e.g. with an oven or rate adjustment trimmer).

There are issues with self-adjusting watches.  First, they tend to be relatively cheap and sloppy in free-running precision when the radio setting is installed, usually with the premise that periodic adjustment will keep them near a couple of seconds' displayed accuracy anyway.  The problem is then if the WWV or other signal is interrupted for any length of time -- usually without warning to the wearer other than a cryptic icon at best -- the watch may drift more substantially.  There are also concerns with any mechanism that can arbitrarily change the rate of advance of the hands or (as in seasonal time change) the angular position of the hour hand either by fast advance or stopping.  This goes double for movements that use the motor drive to the hands for other purposes (and therefore have reversible movement).

Remember that back in the day the lever set was not just to prevent accidental snagging of the crown -- employees were not allowed to reset or adjust their watches.  The time service did that weekly and tinkered with any regulator rate adjustment at that time.  Interestingly, in the post-1891 timeframe, both watch manufacturers and jewelers put a considerable price premium on 'railroad grade' movements, supposedly to defray some of the cost of the mandatory weekly service 'up front' -- this naturally did not hurt price snobbery inherent in having a "five-position railroad-grade watch" as a civilian, and (cynically, I note) this may account for a great deal of the fancy nickel plate and damaskeening, gold-chaton jeweling, and what Webb C. Ball himself called 'smokestack jewelling' (before he as a jeweler came to 'see the light!) that characterize the canonical American railroad movements...

Incidentally this probably explains why a feature important on English railroad watches (and hence early American railroad watches) and military watches of comparable accuracy and 'criticality of use' -- a hacking feature -- is not present on 16s railroad movements.  As railroaders aren't supposed to set watches in the field, it does not matter if the watch has means to set the second hand precisely 'without touching it' which is part of what hacking does, or to start the movement to correct balance arc/amplitude within half a second of actuation, which is another thing hacking does...

There are some duscussions in the NAWCC community about exactly when various parts of the 1891 standards were eliminated.  Certainly the 16s requirement went with the adoption of wristwatches, which I think were approved starting in the early '50s.  The early Hamiltons (including both the 500 and 505 electrics) maintained the upjeweling and the clamp securement of the regulator; Swiss Balls kept lever set and 16s in pocket watches, but the 2821 and 2824 Trainmasters I've seen are all stem set.  The earliest railroad Accutrons (214s) had an external bail arrangement on the back to set, which I suppose kept it 'reasonably safe' from accidental reset while the watch was actually being worn.

[adkrr64]

Maybe this was answered earlier in the thread, but what makes any given modern watch "railroad approved"? Would, for example, a digital watch that self adjusts its time to the NIST time signal be railrpad approved? (yes, I understand it has to be a watch only - no "smart" watches allowed). 

[jeffhergert]

My work watch is a Hamilton 992b Railway Special.  I bought it about 20 years ago.  I've had it serviced a couple of times, but the guy who did it (local jeweler) is now retired.  I know of a couple of places near me that still can service a pocket watch in house.  I don't want my watch sent anywhere for repair.  I've been warned that there have been cases when the watch returned, the original movement has been removed and a "generic" movement substituted.

My former watch guy looked up the serial number on my 992b and said the movement dated to 1943.

I also have a Seiko quartz "railroad approved" watch.

Jeff  

 

[BaltACD]

My parents got me a single hour Accutron for my 21st Birthday.  I inherited my fathers double hour Accutron after his passing.

Have had trouble finding anyone to properly service them.

[Overmod]

Fun to see this zombie thread pop up again!  Some of the watches mentioned were Elgins.

Ball by that point was using Swiss movements, I think chronometer-grade ETA2821/2824, and giving them the special features for contemporary railroad certification (you can tell the Ball winding and no winding versions the same way as the Hamilton 500s/505s: they have a small spring clamp on the regulator arm).

Elgin did make B.W.Raymond railroad wristwatches, some with the funky Durabalance (which was set to positions with the balance wheel installed in the watch).  They are still  prized when they come up on eBay.

Elgin made railroad-grade watches almost from the beginning, first in 15-jewel and then 17-jewel, long before Ball developed the 'standard' in the early 1890s.  These had the necessary precision to get reasonable accuracy when set to 5 positions.

Later Elgin pocket-watch movements had some of the same technological improvements Hamiltons did, but a couple of the models went a bit too far and used specialized pieces for which there are few spare parts.  They also made railroad-grade movements that were finished like luxury watches for 'private' use -- these were often for hunting cases (which by then had ceased to be 'legal' for new railroad use) and the Veritas and Father Time are examples.  About the best it got in 'railroad' use were the 23j models with wind indicator.

[CMStPnP]

I am aware ELGIN watch company is now out of business but didn't they make railroad approved watches back in the day?    Look at what the prices are now for an authentic and still working ELGIN?    Holy Crap!!!

[ARTHUR HAVILAND]

When I hired on the railroad as a fireman for Penn Central in 1971 I was told by a watch salesman in Weehawken yard that I needed a railroad approved watch. He sold me a Ball Trainmaster self winding watch for $300. It still keeps perfect time after 50 years and only one cleaning by Grand Central Watch. After I bought the Ball an old timer told me that a Timex would have qualified as a railroad approved watch.

[Anonymous]

I'm an Engineer in New York. I typically use my circa 1966 Bulova Accutron Model 214. I find it to be as accurate as a modern quartz watch and stand up to the "rigors" of railroad life. As with any old watch, it needs servicing from time to time, so when the Accutron is being serviced, I use a Hamilton Electric Model 505, RR Special, circa 1963. This watch is a little more fragile than the Bulova, but it has kept good time overall but not as accurately as the Accutron. If a railroader today would like to wear a vintage watch everyday on the job, I honestly suggest an Accutron. Like a Model 214 or 218, Railroad Approved watch. They are accurate, hardy, and something you can pass down to your kids after retirement. Who could pass down an Indiglo?

By the way, our Railroad only requires a "reliable watch". They never discussed anything about a standard watch design.

[BentnoseWillie]

I have my grandfather's Hamilton 990 which needs repairs, which have to wait for now - the last time it went in it needed a roller jewel at $180. Even a cleaning isn't cheap any more - the skills required to service mechanical watches are getting thin on the ground around here.

My daily-wear watch is a Citizen. I'm not a railroader, just prefer RR approved watches for the 24 hour numbers and easy reading face.

[Randy Stahl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Old Timer

My favorite pocket watch from the dark ages was the good ol' Elgin B. W. Raymond, which I still have. It's in a bell jar.

But I guess I'm the only one in this forum that used one . . .

Old Timer

I still carry an Elgin father time once in a while. My Hamilton 998 electric ry special keeps good time too, even if it is only 17 jewel.
Randy

[Overmod]

A B.W. Raymond is an Elgin, not a Hamilton... not to say it isn't a fine watch!

It might just need a good cleaning. Does the balance still swing freely?

[ValleyX]

I possess a Hamilton B. W. Raymond, which I got from my father, which he got from an estate sale of a B&O trainman in Newark, Ohio. However, it quit running this past year and I haven't taken the time to see who could fix it in my area.

[Anonymous]

My favorite pocket watch from the dark ages was the good ol' Elgin B. W. Raymond, which I still have. It's in a bell jar.

But I guess I'm the only one in this forum that used one . . .

Old Timer

[BigJim]

I stand by my first post about accuracy and where to find the correct time. I used to own an Accutron watch. It was very unreliable when working as a brakeman because it would stop from the shock if a switch was very hard to throw.

[Randy Stahl]

Been using my 23 jewel Illinois Bunn special for years, never more than 30 seconds off.
Randy

[Anonymous]

For the CPR from CROR Special Instructions ----

The following are railway approved time sources -

1)The National Research Council Standard Time Signal
•Transmitted daily by a network of Canadian Broadcasting Corporation radio stations or
•When available, phone number listed in the time table

2)The USA National Bureau of Standards time signal

3)CPR approved time signals, synchronized with the national bureau of Standards time signal, where such is available, will be indicated in special instructions

As far as the railway approved watches --
In the application of Rule 2, a railway approved watch is a reliable watch that simultaneously displays hours, minutes and seconds in the twenty-four hour system.

Every employee in possession of a valid certificate of rules qualification shall, when in service connected with the movement of trains or engines, use a reliable railway approved watch or clock.

[arbfbe]

Your railroad watch has to be within 30 seconds of the correct time or you have to change it. The calibration source is supposed to be the WWV time signal over the telephone. The only display requirement in the rule book is that the watch display arabic numbers. Nothing as to dial face or digital face. Auto time zone change would be improbable account the railroads make their own time zones to keep the crew on the same time during the trip. There are exceptions to this but where I work the official time zone changes in the middle of my run and so Form B track restrictions which have time limits would get confusing if the railroad changed time in the middle of the run. Railroaders get the chance to recalibrate their timepieces every 12 hours or so, even more often if you have a cell phone along so deviation would not sem to be an issue.

[Overmod]

... which neatly raises the questions:

1) What, if any, are official railroad rules on watch synchronization with external time services or servers? (For example, via the Internet to a stratum 2 or 1 server, or to WWV via radio)?

2) What are official railroad rules regarding digital displays (as opposed to analog hands/Arabic numbers) *on pure battery watches*? [Note that this point is intended to rule out objections to the watch 'going blank' vs. just stopping when battery power runs low]

3) What, if any, is the procedure used for transit through time zones? I haven't yet seen a 'railroad-approved' quartz watch model with multiple hour hands (e.g., the "Fort Wayne" hour hand (thanks, Art, for the name) on some 16s railroad watches), nor have I seen a railroad model with a 'jumper' for the hour hand, which would permit easy time changes without stopping the timing function of the watch.

I bring this up because, with the impending 'completeness' of NDGPS, it becomes practical to conduct automatic time-zone changes on watches -- as well as chronometric functions built into locomotives, etc.

Active railroaders: would an automatic time-zone change be valuable, or not? How would you want to be informed (by the watch) when it is changing or has changed a zone? Likewise, how would you want the watch to handle daylight-saving changes (or the lack thereof in Arizona!) automagically?

With respect to you older pocket-watch owners: Be aware that one of the reasons for the 'switch' to Elinvar hairsprings (circa the early '40s) on railroad watches was the perceived effect of main-generator (and other) fields in diesel-electric locomotives on the balance. (The effect, of course, is small, and might easily constitute a marketing ploy -- a follow-on to the golden age of 'smokestack jewels', perhaps -- rather than an objective measure. Some evidence out there that at least on certain railroads the use of magnetic hairsprings was out of favor with dieselization...

With respect to pocket watches, I've always liked Hamilton and Illinois, but oddly enough my principal "carry" watch is a Vanguard with up/down (fitted with a NOS Ball-Waltham replacement nonmagnetic balance and upper/lower balance jewels). For 'practical' pocket watches, I'd give the nod to the early Ball-Records... why? Attention to the details that matter, most particularly use of Incabloc shock protection on the escape and first wheels as well as the balance. That told me that the designers were concerned with real-world situations...

I've always somewhat mistrusted the 'tuning-fork' Accutrons, because they're relatively sensitive to cumulative position error. For example, if you wear an Accutron on the inside of your wrist, it can gain or lose up to 2 seconds a day relative to the same watch on the outside... note that the same effect may apply if you hold or rest your wrist for long periods of time in a position other than that in which the watch was originally timed. Again -- not that this is critical compared to overall timing, but some people think that their "accurate" watch may not need as frequent checking against a time standard.

I used to point out that the cheapest 32,767Hz quartz watch made can be certified as a Swiss chronometer in precision, and is likely to be more accurate as well (remember that ship chronometers are extremely precise but not accurate; you have to calculate the cumulative deviation to know 'what time it is', which isn't exactly what railroaders want to bother with!)

[CShaveRR]

I have a Bulova Accutron that has served me very well for at least twenty years. It loses maybe a second a week; I keep it within five seconds of the correct time. I doubt that I could do much better than that.

My backup railroad watch is a coil-sprung B.W.Raymond that I bought at a pawnshop in 1971, when I first hired out. It sits unused most of the time, but keeps reasonable time when I need it to.

[arbfbe]

wrist vs pocket

Pocket ONLY if you wear bibs to work. The pocket works best in the bib part of the bibs where it is easy to remove for a look.

I have always used Seiko-mickeys on my wrist since upgrading from a Hamilton 992B. Battery power is certainly more reliable than wind ups. First Seiko quit, second had the dial come loose but still ran, third Seiko is going fine but I will likely replace it with something with a chronomoter built in. GPS might be nice as well.......

[joesap1]

It looks like the Seiko has the advantage. I do like the Hamilton wristwatches that I have seen. As much as I enjoy pocket watches, I have a tendency of destroying them. I either break the crystal or ding up the case.
If I end up working the train service job for the UP I might be safe with a pocket watch.
For railroad work, which do you prefer: wristwatch or pocketwatch? Why?

[wcfan4ever]

It would be the SEIKO watch from Wisconsin Central. It was in thier employee catalog and had a good price on it. Asked an employee to get it and walla! Never worn as it is too expensive and a rare piece.