hmmm...about those Superliner passenger cars.........

[M636C]

Oops,

I checked some photos! In the Amtrak "Phase IV" scheme the thin red stripes are underneath the blue - sorry.

Peter

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by donclark

With all of these sell outs, you'd think Amtrak would purchase/rent more sleepers! Without any doubt, Amtrak's capital budget is puny....thanks to Congress.....

Easier said than done. Coaches are hard enough to find, but where will these sleepers come from. No U.S. manufacturer has made any for decades. Those that did are out of business now in large measure. Where could they even buy them. Renting is out of the question, the cars don't exist.

LC

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

The term "Phase" is used a lot by railfans in particular referring to changes with time. It is used a lot with EMD locomotives where minor changes occurred, and these terms are often used by model manufacturers. For example, late GP9s had two 48" fans instead of four 36" fans. I think this change was called "Phase III" but don't quote me without checking it!

The same progression is seen in Amtrak locomotive and car colour schemes.

Phase1 - Red Nose, Platinum Mist body, large "Pointless Arrow" symbol on the side of the loco. Cars had two wide red and blue window stripes with a narrow white stripe, and had "Pointless Arrows" at each end.

Phase2 - Both locomotives and cars had wide red and blue stripes with narrow white stripe, no "Pointless Arrows". Remainder of loco the same - Black roof, Platinum mist sides, Black trucks, pilots, and so on.

Phase 3 - Like Phase 2 but equal size Red/White/Blue stripes. AEM-7 electrics were basically red white and blue below the "waist" at this time and the P32-8BWH were as described elsewhere. AMD-103/P-42 had two variations of very broad red/white /blue stripes, which "faded out" towards the rear on the earlier units.

Phase 4 - Started off as a "NorthEast Direct" scheme with a broad blue stripe and multiple narrow red stripes underneath. Appeared on some P-42s from new and on Superliner II cars from new. AEM-7s looked much more normal, largely platinum mist with a lighter grey (not black) roof

Phase 5 - The "Acela" scheme with large blue patches on the locomotives and cars. I'm not sure I like it and am looking forward to Phase 6.

Peter

Peter - that's been very helpful - I'm going to print that one off for reference...

Dave

[M636C]

The term "Phase" is used a lot by railfans in particular referring to changes with time. It is used a lot with EMD locomotives where minor changes occurred, and these terms are often used by model manufacturers. For example, late GP9s had two 48" fans instead of four 36" fans. I think this change was called "Phase III" but don't quote me without checking it!

The same progression is seen in Amtrak locomotive and car colour schemes.

Phase1 - Red Nose, Platinum Mist body, large "Pointless Arrow" symbol on the side of the loco. Cars had two wide red and blue window stripes with a narrow white stripe, and had "Pointless Arrows" at each end.

Phase2 - Both locomotives and cars had wide red and blue stripes with narrow white stripe, no "Pointless Arrows". Remainder of loco the same - Black roof, Platinum mist sides, Black trucks, pilots, and so on.

Phase 3 - Like Phase 2 but equal size Red/White/Blue stripes. AEM-7 electrics were basically red white and blue below the "waist" at this time and the P32-8BWH were as described elsewhere. AMD-103/P-42 had two variations of very broad red/white /blue stripes, which "faded out" towards the rear on the earlier units.

Phase 4 - Started off as a "NorthEast Direct" scheme with a broad blue stripe and multiple narrow red stripes underneath. Appeared on some P-42s from new and on Superliner II cars from new. AEM-7s looked much more normal, largely platinum mist with a lighter grey (not black) roof

Phase 5 - The "Acela" scheme with large blue patches on the locomotives and cars. I'm not sure I like it and am looking forward to Phase 6.

Peter

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

Dave,

I think the only livery carried by the Amtrak GP40s was "Phase III", platinum mist with a black roof and trucks with three equal sized red, white and blue stripes. That is also the first livery carried by the GP40TC (and the only one I've seen on those units).

Peter

Thanks Peter. Does the term "Phase" just refer to the paint scheme, or other changes/upgrades as well?

Dave

[M636C]

Dave,

I think the only livery carried by the Amtrak GP40s was "Phase III", platinum mist with a black roof and trucks with three equal sized red, white and blue stripes. That is also the first livery carried by the GP40TC (and the only one I've seen on those units).

Peter

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

Dave:
Another lash-up for your consideration: I remember seeing television news footage of a grade crossing incident in northwest Indiana involving the Capitol Ltd and the power was a GP40TC-GP40 lash-up.
Paul

Paul, apologies for a tardy reply, (I've been away from a 'puter for 3 days..mostly gardening and landscaping at home...and happy with the results[:)]).

Did you happen to notice what livery did the GP40 have in the lash-up for the Capitol Ltd that was involved in the grade crossing incident?

Dave

[Junctionfan]

What is the passenger capacity for the Superliner Coachs and the Coach/Baggage cars?

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Dave:
Another lash-up for your consideration: I remember seeing television news footage of a grade crossing incident in northwest Indiana involving the Capitol Ltd and the power was a GP40TC-GP40 lash-up.
Paul

[M636C]

Adrian,

I think you are confusing the ex GO transit GP40TC, which is on a longer underframe and has a square rear end, with the standard GP40 referred to above, which was just a freight locomotive fitted with HEP cables.

The GP40 TC (for "Toronto Commuter") was really the same as the later F40PH units fitted with a separate diesel alternator set for HEP use. When GO Transit bought the F59s, they sold the GP40TC to Amtrak. I saw one of them ,about ten years ago, running MARC commuter trains out of Washington DC, at a time when MARC were short of power.

Peter

[adrianspeeder]

I saw one of the geeps at harrisburg station over the summer. Think it was numbered in the 500s. Just has a squared off rear end and does look cool in amtrak paint.

Adrianspeeder

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

Peter and Dave:
Two of the B32-8WH's were indeed funded by California DOT and are in the pool of California state-supported trains (San Joaquins, Pacific Surfliners and Capitols). They are now painted in California colors.
The balance were in systemwide service and I have seen two of them pulling the Southwest Chief. The HEP-cabled GP40's were also in systemwide service and I did see them as second units on the California Zephyr and Capitol Ltd, both of which are Superliner equipped.
Paul

Paul, thanks very much, this is all good stuff! [:p][:p] A HO B32-8WH, and a HO GP40 in Amtrak livery would make a refeshingly different modern passenger train on a layout, particularly an exhibition one! heh heh...

Dave

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Peter and Dave:
Two of the B32-8WH's were indeed funded by California DOT and are in the pool of California state-supported trains (San Joaquins, Pacific Surfliners and Capitols). They are now painted in California colors.
The balance were in systemwide service and I have seen two of them pulling the Southwest Chief. The HEP-cabled GP40's were also in systemwide service and I did see them as second units on the California Zephyr and Capitol Ltd, both of which are Superliner equipped.
Paul

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by drephpe

Yes.

Hey drephpe! I love it! [:)][;)] So concise!

Dave

[Anonymous]

Yes.

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by drephpe

Dave--

The dash-8's now show up just about anywhere on the system.

Thanks drephpe - [:)] [:p] [;)]you know I'm always on the lookout for interesting and varied ways of running passenger trains [:p] [;)] heh heh...

Oh! [:0] I forgot to ask earlier! [:0] Are the Superliner cars basically the same length as the older 85 foot streamliner cars of the 1950s? [:)]

Dave

[Anonymous]

Dave--

The dash-8's now show up just about anywhere on the system.

[Modelcar]

...Ah yes those SDP40F's....I wondered if I was thinking of the correct suspect models...Thanks for the correction. And If I {again}, remember those traded in units were then rebuilt into another model for freight operation.

[M636C]

Dave,

I saw all the Dash8-32BWH locomotives (that I've seen) in California. One on a train in LA Union Station, (I'd have to check the shots to say which), one on a San Diegan that I caught to Orange County (that was an interesting train, it had a complete Metrolink train coupled to it - they were new and were using the San Diegan for crew training). The Dash8 was pushing and the F59 leading, I think. And two or three times on the "Desert Wind" on Cajon Pass. Two of them were owned by Calfornia DOT, but were painted in standard "Pepsi Can" when new. The Hamersley Iron Dash 9 colours were a simplified version of the "Pepsi Can" scheme.

Walthers market a model Dash8-32BWH, which might be just a repainted B40-8. It was originally available in Pepsi Can, but is available in Phase IV, silver with blue and red stripes.

Peter

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

To the Australians:
The B32-8WH is an interim design that is unique to Amtrak. Amtrak was in a power shortage at the time as the F40PH's were wearing out and the B32-8WH was ordered to help tide Amtrak through this period until the Genesis designs were completed and built. Amtrak also leased 15 GP40's fitted with HEP cables at about the same time. The GP40's served as second or third units on various long-haul trains in both the East and West.
Paul

Thanks Paul. ....

.......hmmmm...that does make for another variation when running modern passenger model trains [:p][:p]...(that's if it's available....).....a Dash 8 pulling a passenger train sounds very interesting....[:)] [;)]...Was the B32-8WH used by Amtrak country-wide or only in certain regions?

Dave

[espeefoamer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...Weren't the Amtrak F40PH engines having trouble with unexplainable derailing and doing it early in their life span long before wear out cycle was up....and many of them had to be traded in for something to replace them....

The Amtrak engines with derailment problems( they didn't seem to have any trouble on the Santa Fe) were the SDP40Fs.They were replaced by the F40s.

[daveklepper]

Are crews as nasty today? I had the full gamut of experiences with Amtrak crews on my extensive travels.Some seemed like the salt of the earth, regarding each passenger as their personal guests and doing their very best to comensate for less that 100% equipment and late trains. Andon a few occasions the opposite kind, but not generally.

[Modelcar]

...Weren't the Amtrak F40PH engines having trouble with unexplainable derailing and doing it early in their life span long before wear out cycle was up....and many of them had to be traded in for something to replace them....

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

To the Australians:
The B32-8WH is an interim design that is unique to Amtrak. Amtrak was in a power shortage at the time as the F40PH's were wearing out and the B32-8WH was ordered to help tide Amtrak through this period until the Genesis designs were completed and built. Amtrak also leased 15 GP40's fitted with HEP cables at about the same time. The GP40's served as second or third units on various long-haul trains in both the East and West.
Paul

[Modelcar]

...Isn't it a shame Amtrak can't cure more problems with more equipment as described above....but can't and never has had the ability to do so. Imagine other forms of transportation having to perform with similiar deficiencies in their business and imagine how successful they would be. Properly funded and with a leader like Mr. Gunn...the story most likely would have been much different. But then, we never seem to have {at least some of the money}, spent on "we" citizens in compared to curing the worlds problems. We've helped big time....to prepare 3rd world countries into the 20th and 21th centuries and now what happens...They're doing the manufacturing work we once had a handle on to put our citizens to work....I better stop, I get more agitated as I go....Sorry.

[Anonymous]

With all of these sell outs, you'd think Amtrak would purchase/rent more sleepers! Without any doubt, Amtrak's capital budget is puny....thanks to Congress.....

[Kozzie]

drephpe, thanks for all that stuff! I think I'll have to print it out and go over it a few times.

I hope that obnoxious crew making people stand [:(] got sorted out...boggles the mind really....

Dave

[Anonymous]

Dave--

The transition cars come in two types. The originals that were contemporary with Superliner I equipment were rebuilt ex-Santa Fe hi-level chair cars that Amtrak converted to coach dorms by walling off the upstairs ahead of the center stairway to the lower level and vestibule, putting in a door, and adding dorm rooms and a shower in this area. The original end stairway is in the dorm area and steps down. These cars had about 40 coach seats after conversion. The Santa Fe had a large fleet of permanent step down hi-level chair cars and also had some convertible models that were built with an end stairwell with a removable upper floor and provision to move the door to the lower level without disturbing the coach seats. Amtrak converted these also. Amtrak did not convert the original two "experimental" hi-levels, both of which were step down cars, because they did not have flat floors--the seats were on a raised floor with a sunken aisle, similar to the big domes. These two cars are readily identifiable because they have the side walls sloped in starting at about floor level, and they were sold off at that time. The entire fleet of hi-level coaches (step down or otherwise) had no revenue pax space on the lower level, only restrooms, with a few cars having a conductor office and stewardess-nurse dorm room. The remainder of the car's lower level was taken up by diesel house power plants (replaced with transformers when HEP conversions were done by Amtrak) and HVAC equipment.

Not all hi-levels were step down or convertible cars. The flat floor chair cars were not modified (except the diaphragms--see below) and were used as 72-seat chair cars.

Of course, all of these cars got HEP.

Incidentally, the floors in the hi-levels and superliners did not line up, with the Superliner floor being 4 inches higher than the hi-level floor. When the Superliner cars were designed, Amtrak intended to replace all western trains with a very small fleet of these cars. To add insult to injury, the original Superliner conception involved only coaches, coach baggage and a coach snack car (never built) to provide a level of service commiserate with that offered by Greyhound and Trailways. They never intended to build any diners, sleepers or lounges, and were forced to by several Board members, led by then UTU chief Charlie Luna of Dallas, who was one of the original incorporators of Railpax/Amtrak. When the Arabs (who historically have found themselves catapulted into the position of being unwitting saviors of American passenger rail on multiple occasions) turned off the taps and passenger demand skyrocketed, Luna & Co. forced the conversion of the hi-levels and Heritage Fleet (the original Amtrak plan was to replace all the eastern long distance trains with Amfleet I coaches and cafe cars, and scrap the existing fleet, providing no sleepers, diners, or lounge cars in the east, either). To accommodate the difference in height between the floors of the Superliners and hi-levels, Amtrak extended the hi-levels' diaphragm striker plates to mate with the taller Superliner cars, and added a 4" wedge to the floor over the buffers to provide a makeshift, de facto "ramp" up to Superliner floor level.

The second type was a Superliner II transition dorm. This car has economy bedrooms on the upper level, with restrooms and a conference room/crew lounge on the lower level.

In a fit of brilliance typical of the way they have historically done business, Amtrak marketing rarely authorized sale of the unoccupied revenue space in the transition cars (coach seats in the hi-levels, and about half or more of the economy bedrooms in the transition dorms), even if the train had standees, while they incessantly complained about lack of revenue and pax got turned away (most western trains sell out 6 weeks to 6 months in advance during the summer, and at other times as well). And there are numerous authenticated reports of surly OBS crew members on Amtrak trains routinely kicking revenue passengers out of the coach section of the hi-level transition dorms and letting the seats go empty. In one recorded instance on a sold-out edition of the Texas Eagle with a large number of standees, the OBS crew member sprawled over a couple of coach seats threw the passengers out of the car and told them they couldn't come back in "because this car is where we go to unwind". So the car ran empty and the poor passengers had to stand, albeit with a (hopefully) "unwound" OBS crew.

Because some trains, like 1-2 and 35-36, for example, did not use a transition dorm car (the OBS crew displaced revenue sleeper space while revenue pax were turned away--also an act of true financial genius; no wonder Arizona Sen. John McCain has little or no use for Amtrak!), Amtrak began removing the diaphragms from baggage cars and equipping them with rubber tupe European-style diaphragms that can best be described as looking like a "baby buggy bumper" on steroids. This design eliminated damage to the Superliner and hi-level diaphragms resulting from the mismating of the high level and low level diaphragm striker plates. Clearly, in that instance there is no inside passage from the Superliners to the baggage cars.

For some additional info, see the following:

http://trainweb.com/slides/ss05/ss05b_09.htm
http://trainweb.com/accommod/s2jtrans.htm

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

Dave

Correct on the route. I am doing Chicago to Albuquerque and return. My wife and I are squeezing out a few days to meet up with her daughter at a tour stop there and do a little sightseeing in an area we have never visited. The wife is flying, because she does not want to be away from Matt, her teenaged high school junior for any lengthy period. (He stays at a friends home while we are gone, but since he drives..., well, you know.)

Beyond Topeka, Kansas is new mileage for me. I have been told that the ride over Raton and down to ABQ is very scenic. That is daylight both ways even with this season of short days.

I'm excited.

Jay[:D]

Jay, have a great time. [:)] [:p]
Maybe you can give us a little report in a post after you get back? [:p]

p.s. don't foget to check out those possible doble level connections if you get a chance, cheers

Dave

[jeaton]

Dave

Correct on the route. I am doing Chicago to Albuquerque and return. My wife and I are squeezing out a few days to meet up with her daughter at a tour stop there and do a little sightseeing in an area we have never visited. The wife is flying, because she does not want to be away from Matt, her teenaged high school junior for any lengthy period. (He stays at a friends home while we are gone, but since he drives..., well, you know.)

Beyond Topeka, Kansas is new mileage for me. I have been told that the ride over Raton and down to ABQ is very scenic. That is daylight both ways even with this season of short days.

I'm excited.

Jay[:D]