Quentin
QUOTE: Originally posted by piouslion QUOTE: Originally posted by Sterling1 QUOTE: Originally posted by piouslion QUOTE: Originally posted by donclark Yes, but half of that $25 billion was to rebuild the freeways....something the highway lobby should have lobbied for..... Just goes to say that sometimes it pays to be a pig. Should have dipped a little money into a feasibility study on how to reduce congestion in the state of Florida using rail systems at the cheapest possible way with current resources . . . Glad we met.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Sterling1 QUOTE: Originally posted by piouslion QUOTE: Originally posted by donclark Yes, but half of that $25 billion was to rebuild the freeways....something the highway lobby should have lobbied for..... Just goes to say that sometimes it pays to be a pig. Should have dipped a little money into a feasibility study on how to reduce congestion in the state of Florida using rail systems at the cheapest possible way with current resources . . .
QUOTE: Originally posted by piouslion QUOTE: Originally posted by donclark Yes, but half of that $25 billion was to rebuild the freeways....something the highway lobby should have lobbied for..... Just goes to say that sometimes it pays to be a pig.
QUOTE: Originally posted by donclark Yes, but half of that $25 billion was to rebuild the freeways....something the highway lobby should have lobbied for.....
QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ....Several times in the past arriving at Orlando airport and headed for a Disney stay and how I wished there would have been a direct rail connection from ORL right to the Theme park and hence the hotel.
QUOTE: Originally posted by piouslion QUOTE: Originally posted by passengerfan When I-95 reaches gridlock and their up to their butts in alligators on either side maybe they will reconsider once again. California is just waiting for a final decision on High Speed rail and I don't think Californians will make the same mistake. The problem we are faced with now is witch route to take and should it serve more of the valley than at presentently proposed. The State Capital at Sacramento should be served and the proposed routing would only serve Sacramento about six years after the main route is completed. Florida voters will live to regret the decision as the price of interstate expansion will be far more than a high speed rail line and serve less people. Interstates have a tendancy to fill with traffic no matter how many lanes are added. High Speed rail can serve far more people than two extra lanes of interstate and their won't be any trucks on the HSR. AS a former state highway tech I can assure you that you are on very stable ground. But the trouble of it is: that the politicians that are in the hip pocket of the asphalt paving-automobile-trucking lobby that virtully owns the 50 states and their national government will work their hardest to keep that from changing and it will not change happen any time soon. That is if Nothin' don't happen.
QUOTE: Originally posted by passengerfan When I-95 reaches gridlock and their up to their butts in alligators on either side maybe they will reconsider once again. California is just waiting for a final decision on High Speed rail and I don't think Californians will make the same mistake. The problem we are faced with now is witch route to take and should it serve more of the valley than at presentently proposed. The State Capital at Sacramento should be served and the proposed routing would only serve Sacramento about six years after the main route is completed. Florida voters will live to regret the decision as the price of interstate expansion will be far more than a high speed rail line and serve less people. Interstates have a tendancy to fill with traffic no matter how many lanes are added. High Speed rail can serve far more people than two extra lanes of interstate and their won't be any trucks on the HSR.
QUOTE: Originally posted by piouslion QUOTE: Originally posted by donclark Any funds spent on speeding up passenger rail service in America is welcomed. However, upgrading track piecemeal, a little at a time, costs much much more than building a state of the art brand new HSR line in the first place..... something the Europeans have already learned.... Its the same with highways, its cheaper to build a brand new freeway through new right of way than it is to expand an existing freeway through the old right of way....not to mention quicker..... The voters of Florida were led down the wrong path.... $25 billion to build a new high speed rail line all the way down to Miami is just as cheap as building a brand new freeway or building a number of brand new airports to handle the inceased volume of traffic..... Somehow, in this election, that fact got lost in the midst of the cost of HSR..... The main reason why costs rose in Florida was the costs of rebuilding the freeways and the turnpike along with the costs of building HSR inside the median of their right of way..... spending more on the freeways than on the HSR line..... While the costs of building HSR is more than building a comparable twin track light rail line, they aren't that much more..... DART has been able to build 45 miles of twin track electricified light rail line along former railroad right of way from Plano to South Dallas, Garland to South Dallas, and through a six mile tunnel under Central Expressway, and through streets downtown, for less than $2 billion..... Therefore Florida should be able to build a twin track electricifed light rail line between Orlando and Tampa for around twice as much, as the distance is about twice as much.....around $4 billion..... Increasing the speed with a stronger bed shouldn't double that..... One thing is certian, You will not get that price again.
QUOTE: Originally posted by donclark Any funds spent on speeding up passenger rail service in America is welcomed. However, upgrading track piecemeal, a little at a time, costs much much more than building a state of the art brand new HSR line in the first place..... something the Europeans have already learned.... Its the same with highways, its cheaper to build a brand new freeway through new right of way than it is to expand an existing freeway through the old right of way....not to mention quicker..... The voters of Florida were led down the wrong path.... $25 billion to build a new high speed rail line all the way down to Miami is just as cheap as building a brand new freeway or building a number of brand new airports to handle the inceased volume of traffic..... Somehow, in this election, that fact got lost in the midst of the cost of HSR..... The main reason why costs rose in Florida was the costs of rebuilding the freeways and the turnpike along with the costs of building HSR inside the median of their right of way..... spending more on the freeways than on the HSR line..... While the costs of building HSR is more than building a comparable twin track light rail line, they aren't that much more..... DART has been able to build 45 miles of twin track electricified light rail line along former railroad right of way from Plano to South Dallas, Garland to South Dallas, and through a six mile tunnel under Central Expressway, and through streets downtown, for less than $2 billion..... Therefore Florida should be able to build a twin track electricifed light rail line between Orlando and Tampa for around twice as much, as the distance is about twice as much.....around $4 billion..... Increasing the speed with a stronger bed shouldn't double that.....
QUOTE: Originally posted by piouslion QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45 I live in Florida. A much cheaper and more practical solution: Up until the late 60s Florida had excellent passenger service from the Seaboard Coast Line Railroad. The tracks, which still exist (though single track), ran into all of Florida's major cities. I don't see why a state or federal funded agreement couldn't be worked out with CSX to: [1] Upgrade the tracks to Class 5 (90+ mph) standards. [2] Have an agency like Tri-Rail or Amtrak, provide intra-state service. Hasn't something similar happened with NS recently in a northern state where they're getting government grants for track upgrades to get commuter rail on the move? Also has it not been successful in California? In Florida, Interstates I-4, I-75, and I-95 are nightmare highways to cruise on. While bullet trains can run at close to 200 mph, the costs are prohibitive. But potential passengers would likely be willing to travel on conventional trains that can hit speeds of 90 to 100mph, which in a state the size of Florida, still means that trains would be safer, faster, and more comfortable than buses and more convenient than a commuter airline. Funny thing is that in the 1950s Florida had a much smaller population. Today's population is double or triple of that time period but passenger rail service is less than 1/4 of what it was back then! And on top of that, If memory serves me correctly, there is much railbanked realestate in most of North Central, Central and South Florida.
QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45 I live in Florida. A much cheaper and more practical solution: Up until the late 60s Florida had excellent passenger service from the Seaboard Coast Line Railroad. The tracks, which still exist (though single track), ran into all of Florida's major cities. I don't see why a state or federal funded agreement couldn't be worked out with CSX to: [1] Upgrade the tracks to Class 5 (90+ mph) standards. [2] Have an agency like Tri-Rail or Amtrak, provide intra-state service. Hasn't something similar happened with NS recently in a northern state where they're getting government grants for track upgrades to get commuter rail on the move? Also has it not been successful in California? In Florida, Interstates I-4, I-75, and I-95 are nightmare highways to cruise on. While bullet trains can run at close to 200 mph, the costs are prohibitive. But potential passengers would likely be willing to travel on conventional trains that can hit speeds of 90 to 100mph, which in a state the size of Florida, still means that trains would be safer, faster, and more comfortable than buses and more convenient than a commuter airline. Funny thing is that in the 1950s Florida had a much smaller population. Today's population is double or triple of that time period but passenger rail service is less than 1/4 of what it was back then!
QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ....My comment is I suppose...bewilderment....We traveled to Florida for our Winter stay for 8 years and got to be involved and observed some of the traffic situations in central Florida. I suppose I don't khow the answer to the congestion one finds so many places in that area but someone should...and better be doing something about it sooner than later. It seems no matter how many lanes are added to I-4 one finds it overwhelmed at to and from work driving times each working day and then mix in the tourist load at different times of the year...I don't know but one would think some thinking ahead should consider giving HSR a good look. It looked like they were going to do just that several times but someone seems to get it stopped each time. Looking forward....something will need to be done or traffic will simply go into complete breakdown at certain times of the day....and start to hurt the tourist industry and many others.
QUOTE: Originally posted by piouslion QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper Incremental improvements need not stop at the level of the Virginia partnership. They can continue to the level of the NE Corridor and even further, building ridership as the work progresses. The Downeaster Portland Boston service seems to be doing all right despite an inconvenient connection with the rest of the Amtrak system and a 70mph top speed. If 10% of the highway traffic can be put on the rails, the remaining drivers will consider the reduction in congestion worthwhiile and support further expenditures, I would hope. As a former resident of Maine also, I'd like to congratulate Amtrak on making rail service successful, making Maine a more attractive and reasonable homestead opportunity for the beloved Bostonians, who are now inflicting their brand of social reform on Maine. [V] How unfortunate, to bad they did not have the good manners to just visit and leave their money behind[:-,] Better yet - try to figure a way get them to stay home and just send their money . . .[:D]
QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper Incremental improvements need not stop at the level of the Virginia partnership. They can continue to the level of the NE Corridor and even further, building ridership as the work progresses. The Downeaster Portland Boston service seems to be doing all right despite an inconvenient connection with the rest of the Amtrak system and a 70mph top speed. If 10% of the highway traffic can be put on the rails, the remaining drivers will consider the reduction in congestion worthwhiile and support further expenditures, I would hope. As a former resident of Maine also, I'd like to congratulate Amtrak on making rail service successful, making Maine a more attractive and reasonable homestead opportunity for the beloved Bostonians, who are now inflicting their brand of social reform on Maine. [V]
QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper Incremental improvements need not stop at the level of the Virginia partnership. They can continue to the level of the NE Corridor and even further, building ridership as the work progresses. The Downeaster Portland Boston service seems to be doing all right despite an inconvenient connection with the rest of the Amtrak system and a 70mph top speed. If 10% of the highway traffic can be put on the rails, the remaining drivers will consider the reduction in congestion worthwhiile and support further expenditures, I would hope.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Old Timer The fact is that nobody turns a profit hauling people unless they provide that premium service for which they can extract the last nickel someone will pay, or they get massive help from public sources, or both. Look it up. Nobody in the world does. People do not want to pay what their transportation is worth, and will not buy tickets that cost them enough to fully compensate their carriers for their rides. On whatever mode you can name. People equate the cost of public transportation with the cost of driving their cars, and always - ALWAYS - underestimate that cost. The US opted, ostensibly for defense reasons, to construct the Interstate Highway System. France and Japan opted to construct high-speed rail. Their systems, in the mid-'70s, cost the equivalent of $1 million US per day to operate. Both of them. I was working for a government agency, and we checked it out, just out of curiosity. I wonder what France and Japan are paying now, per day . . . Old Timer
QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar Re: Highest point in Florida. I mentioned in above post I understood Clermont was the highest point in Florida...but as pointed out, I was wrong. It is the point in the panhandle at 325'. Now I'm wondering what Clermont used to mention as being the highest point.....Perhaps the highest physical point really is at the tip of the Citrus Tower in the Clermont location.....
QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper Isn't the real answer the sort of partnership that Virginia is doing with CSX on the old RF&P line between Richmond and the Potomic bridge south of Washington? To improve what already exists and make it more useful? This was also sold as a highway congestion relief program, involving more trucks and fewer private autos, but it would seem the right model and the way to go. If I am not mistaken, Illinois is doing something similar with the UP Chicago - St. Louis. The track from Miami to Orland and then to Jacksonville exists, and from Aurbendale (south of Orlando) south to Tampa. These existing lines can be upgraded, then the line from Orlando to Jacksonville, and then the direct FEC Miami - Jackonville line. This would provide improved freight service and well and competitive passenger service. Initially, taking 20% of the traffic off the roads should be the goal, and speeds comparable to the Northeast Corridor would be sufficient to do that. Not very fast by European standards, but enough to do the job.
QUOTE: Originally posted by u6729csx Florida does not have room for 4 letter words in their vocabulary. P L A N
QUOTE: Originally posted by Old Timer Guys - I live in Florida and voted against the HST in 2002 and again Nov. 2. The reason I did so was because its backers did not level with the citizens about the cost of the HST; indeed, it was more than implied a couple of times that the HST might even become profitable. Now, I love passenger trains. I've ridden a couple. And Florida's traffic is bad and getting worse (I live with it every day.) But if HST is going to be the answer, let some reputable promoter (not some fast-talking millionaire trying to get me and a few million other taxpayers to pay for his dream) come in and give us an honest appraisal of the problem and let us know, honestly, what it's going to cost. And don't let him try to bamboozle me by telling me that it'll someday pay for itself. It won't. Nobody in the world makes money hauling people without one or both of two factors being present: he provides a premium service for which he can extract the last nickle from the rider that he'll pay (a taxicab company is a good example - he picks you up at your door and takes you to your destination door); or the government entities pay for his losses and provides him with a reasonable profit. I worked for a commuter agency in a large city about 25 years ago, and our riders didn't want to know that the price of their ticket paid for about 45% of the cost of their ride. But we had a local agency that paid the other 55% and provided capital money for maintenance and improvements. Taxpayer money, that is. I don't know what Florida's answer is, but I agree that something drastic must be done. But tell me honestly how it'll work and I'll be a lot more agreeable to it. Old Timer
QUOTE: Originally posted by macguy It's their decision, they are the ones living there, and it's their tax money that will be paying for it. They like sitting in traffic, let them sit.
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