I spent a good ten year period of my life advocating Amtrak and the need for national expansion. More specically, trying to garner support for reinstating The Floridian or a route similar. Another project was linking Memphis to Bristol (via the route of Southern's Tennessean) and a connection with Virginia's rail passenger efforts. Saving the Gulf Breeze, Calling for the resumption of the Sunset east of New Orleans and bringing Amtrak back to Nashville to name others.
Despite all the time and work......nothing. I have never been involved in anything more un-rewarding. It finally occured to me that I might as well be advocating OSHA, the EPA or the IRS. While I support Amtrak I have given up and being a part of any expansion. Anbody else?
Jim Norton
Huntsville, AL
In the last 10 years thier have been many Amtrak victories and improvements. Ridership numbers prove thnis. I remember the Floridian well and the Mia to LA sunset. Times have changed. The millions required to restore these services can be better spent elsewhere in the system.
Amtrak, I don't have a problem. It is the constant posting of the "whine & cheese" parties that are a real drag. Is there anything you actually like re: trains? I sure get tired of opening each of your subjects only to find that you are still ranting. But being the eternal optimist, I keep hoping you have something positive to discuss. So until I find one, I will keep ignoring your posts after the initial opening.
I am sure you are crushed....
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
What Mookie said. It has become old and tiresome.
Where's that "Ignore this user" button I asked for? You would be the first to be so honored.
Norm
Make that 3 in a row....
23 17 46 11
I agree with the above responders.
This is very old and tiresome.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Apparently, the OP rues the fact that time moves in only one direction.
jimnorton I spent a good ten year period of my life advocating Amtrak and the need for national expansion. More specically, trying to garner support for reinstating The Floridian or a route similar. Another project was linking Memphis to Bristol (via the route of Southern's Tennessean) and a connection with Virginia's rail passenger efforts. Saving the Gulf Breeze, Calling for the resumption of the Sunset east of New Orleans and bringing Amtrak back to Nashville to name others. Despite all the time and work......nothing. I have never been involved in anything more un-rewarding. It finally occured to me that I might as well be advocating OSHA, the EPA or the IRS. While I support Amtrak I have given up and being a part of any expansion. Anbody else?
Perhaps you were advocating the wrong routes? I dunno. However, I'm not going to condemn what you say because you are "negative" or "whining." Many folks on here will whine about your posts because they do not like critical analysis. But with Amtrak, for sure, it is hard to see how it can progress unless it is examined critically, both the good and the not so good alike.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
In my opinion -- never give up.
No, there's 'nothing' to show for all your advocacy. (And, I suspect, that's because until more fundamental things about Amtrak's whole LD operating model are changed for the better ... and I don't see the important fundamental things being changed any time soon, or even within a predictable time frame ... adding new LD services, or new services requiring state or multi-state financing, is just throwing more money down an already gaping hole.) But that isn't any reason to 'quit' -- or go negative. (It's fun to be a curmudgeon sometimes, but there are too few people, I think, who keep 'fighting the good fight' even at the darkest hour...)
While there are places to have the 'political' dimensions of Amtrak discussed, I don't really think comparisons to other frequently-disliked Federal agencies with a public reputation for bureaucratic lack of human interaction is particularly fair in the context of Jim's thread. That's not to say that a great many of Amtrak's policies, particularly its perceived customer service policies, don't need some massive revision ASAP, but that discussion ought to be in its own separate thread. (A thread framed as constructive criticism, with specific alternatives that work in Amtrak's context and would change its culture for the better, and not a whine tasting...)
Out of curiosity ... what would the ridership numbers be for the Memphis-Bristol segment, what communities would it serve, where would the Tennessee money to provide it be sourced, and what connecting services in the east (isn't Chattanooga either via Nashville or Knoxville 'off limits' due to freight traffic?) would need to be set up as connections to make the service viable?
Wow. How about if you don't want to be a part of the discussion move the hell on? I thought we had nine replies spurring discussion on the difficulty of wanting increased passenger service. Instead, its about me. I want a dimwit filter on the forum.
Thanks Schlimm. So refreshing to hear support for criticism and analysis. And you are right, the whole Amtrak issue is worthy of such which I thought might make for good conversation here......sans the dimwits.
jimnortonI thought we had nine replies spurring discussion on the difficulty of wanting increased passenger service. Instead, its about me.
To be fully fair -- let me quote from the original post:
While I support Amtrak I have given up [on?] being a part of any expansion. Anbody else?
That's about you. And, as worded, it calls for 'anybody else' to agree that they've given up, or have no more interest in being a part of Amtrak improvement.
On the other hand, I (at least) am trying to keep the discussion as you think you meant it, about how/why Amtrak does not implement plans that people have spent blood, toil, tears and sweat developing, even when they may make compelling sense. In my opinion, starting a thread which is explicitly negative about something, and then calls for expression of similar opinions, is dangerously close to a call to no few of the resident 'trolls' and troll-wannabees we have on the Forums.
I'm a bit disappointed that the objection to this topic has so often been to the poster, rather than to the opinion he posted. Shouldn't we be 'better than that'?
The Railroad Passenger Association of Alabama based numbers (I can't recall) on the multitude of cities lacking rail service. The original intent was to partner with Virgina's future efforts and a connection with the east coast trains. Remember. Tennessee is only served on its etreme western border. That leaves about 15/16 of the state Amtrakless.
The cities of Memphis, Corinth, Huntsville, Chattanooga, Knoxville and Bristol project good ridership potential. Also, the nearest east-west route skirts the great lakes! Chattanooga is a large tourist destination, Knoxville hosts Universty of Tennesee and Huntsville, through its space and military concerns, generates much travel to and from DC.
Also, at this time...the late 1990s, Norfolk Southern's Memphis to Bristol line had greater capacity then today. Remember, Nashville is at the epicenter of the largest Amtrak less area in the nation. Then and now efforts to remedy this have gone nowhere. The closest we came was Amtrak's Kentucky Cardinal being extended to Nashville. And we know what happened to the Kentucky Cardinal.....Hence more frustration.
Wizlish: Thank you as I think you undertand my intent. The reverse would have been to state "I love Amtrak in its current state do you?" I am sure that would have generated the same jabs as well.
My intent here was to compare and learn from other's sucess and failures. I defaulted to failure as this is so much more common in advocay then successes.
jimnorton Remember, Nashville is at the epicenter of the largest Amtrak less area in the nation. Then and now efforts to remedy this have gone nowhere
I can't help thinking that this is a situation similar to the 'Pennsylvanian' controversy we were discussing last winter. There is no question an east-west link through Memphis would be a significant contributor to Amtrak service ... but as long as the whole route essentially runs through Tennessee, its cost of provision would likewise depend upon Tennessee state funding (or at least a very significant contribution of state money would be required even if 'through' connections to other Amtrak or state services were provided).
I'd vote for it. And if it were established, I'd ride it in far greater preference to the current alternative for Amtrak travel from Memphis! But I don't see any way the current (or presumptive) state leadership would find the money to subsidize it.
How can we convince them otherwise?
WizlishI can't help thinking that this is a situation similar to the 'Pennsylvanian' controversy we were discussing last winter. There is no question an east-west link through Memphis would be a significant contributor to Amtrak service ... but as long as the whole route essentially runs through Tennessee, its cost of provision would likewise depend upon Tennessee state funding (or at least a very significant contribution of state money would be required even if 'through' connections to other Amtrak or state services were provided). I'd vote for it. And if it were established, I'd ride it in far greater preference to the current alternative for Amtrak travel from Memphis! But I don't see any way the current (or presumptive) state leadership would find the money to subsidize it. How can we convince them otherwise?
Jim: Wizlish has it right. If Tennesseeans want a cross-state service, then an advocacy group needs to publicize it and help them to express that to their state legislators, since funding is probably going to have to include state funding. Take a look at state/regional groups' websites. A good one is the Midwest High Speed Rail: http://www.midwesthsr.org/ Pretty slick, informative and also lobbies.
Also calling out those five objectors to your post with terms like "dimwit" is NOT an effective response. It's just taking it down to a lower level focusing on personalities and process and away from the substance.
Concerning a Bristol-Memphis train, Wizlish mentioned funding by the state of Tennessee. However, we must remember that about 40% of the 552 miles of route is not in Tennessee, but in Georgia, Alabama, and Mississippi. Another poster did note that there are cities in Alabama and Mississippi on the route.
Also, there is talk of extending service from Lynchburg to Roanoke and to Bristol.
I, for one, would be glad to be able to reach Bristol by rail again, so that I could get to my college reunions by rail. As it is, I rent a car at a convenient railhead and drive to and from Bristol.
Johnny
Jim Norton and I live in the same area of the country(mid-southern Tennessee, north central Alabama). It is difficult to watch other places have Amtrak trains when we cannot have them. We do, after all, pay taxes for other people to have this service. Shouldn't something be done so that we can have it too? I rode on the Floridian several times before it was discontinued in 1979(and the Pan-American before that). It was late a lot of times coming south because of Penn Central and later Conrail's bad track of the early seventies.I think it could have been a good service had it's problems been addressed. I think it still could be if it were well run. Chicago to Florida is a lucrative travel market.
If the TDOT plan proposed below were implemented, Bristol to Memphis would be a corridor entirely in the Volunteer state. (see page 20)
http://www.tdot.state.tn.us/publictrans/RailPlan/tasks/task04.pdf
DeggestyConcerning a Bristol-Memphis train, Wizlish mentioned funding by the state of Tennessee. However, we must remember that about 40% of the 552 miles of route is not in Tennessee, but in Georgia, Alabama, and Mississippi.
Hey, and not only is he right, but the ex-Southern route does not go anywhere near Nashville (but does give relatively good access to Chattanooga). I was implicitly thinking of the 'northern' route that reaches Nashville via CSX/ex-L&N) and then goes over the plateau -- would it use the TC ROW for part of this? -- and is fully within Tennessee.
Interesting to see whether some joint contributions by the several States involved in the southern route would be 'do-able'. Problem is that I don't think there are very many population centers in all that intermediate distance between, say, Corinth and Huntsville, so there might be a problem with getting Mississippi to pay a 'proportionate' share of the overall cost, particularly when they are already comparatively well-served with Amtrak service to more meaningful demographic regions...
Be interesting to see what would be involved in getting NS to improve their 'corridor' from Knoxville down to Chattanooga... although I have more than a sneaking suspicion that if they're spending all those millions, a very strong claim will have to be made for them to enjoy more Amtrak trains complicating their dispatching. An implicit point about at least some of the 'vanished' link in the north is that it could be more optimized for passenger traffic than the NS 'corridor' improvements are likely to be (e.g., with respect to superelevation and vertical-curve spiraling) ...
Quoting wizlish: "Hey, and not only is he right, but the ex-Southern route does not go anywhere near Nashville, and IIRC misses metro Knoxville too (but does give relatively good access to Chattanooga). " But the NS still goes right through Knoxville; the Southern station is right at the intersection of West Depot Avenue NW and North Gay Street NW. Is this not in metro Knoxville?
I had not considered a route from Knoxville through Nashville to Memphis, but using a route that is in existence--just as another poster, who mentioned the cities in North Alabama and North Mississippi, did.
DeggestyQuoting wizlish: "Hey, and not only is he right, but the ex-Southern route does not go anywhere near Nashville, and IIRC misses metro Knoxville too (but does give relatively good access to Chattanooga). " But the NS still goes right through Knoxville...
Yes, I was wrong, bad wrong, but in my partial defense I had corrected it before you had to finish responding to it. (See the map in the quoted report, I think on about page 17, that shows the southern end of the NS improvements; this clearly establishes where Knoxville is in relation to the Bristol to Chattanooga routing Jim was discussing.)
Note that for better or worse, the Tennessee report is advocating a route with minimal interference from freight traffic -- they see the 'missing link' as an opportunity (perhaps to put in higher-speed rail with minimum possibility for traffic interference), and meanwhile from what little I know about NS traffic congestion on the line out of Memphis (they didn't want even a crossing by a Memphis airport-access transit route) there may be problems supporting Amtrak service that can run 'on time'. This is predominantly a single-track route with a considerable traffic in heavy DPU-equipped coal trains mixed with intermodals.
Its a conflict of interest with me. An east west route through the heart of Tennessee would serve my hometown of Cookeville as well as Nashville in lieu of my current home of Huntsville, Alabama. What we have there is the well maintained Memphis to Nashville mainline of CSX. But once to Nashville the route would be the Nashville & Eastern. The NERR has commuter rail (the Nashville Star) to Lebanon and is very well maintained as well. But past Lebanon its 30 mph freight and past Monterey the line is removed.
However, the route we advocated was the well maintained NS all the way from Memphis to Bristol. That could happen with little infrastructure improvements vs. rebuilding 2/3rds of the NERR, relaying 18 miles of track and then running over the Franklin Industrial Railroad from Crab Orchard to Harriman and the NS connection. While RPAA's proposal dives down into Mississippi, Alabama and a bit of Georgia it does offer great sercvice to East Tennessee.
edblysard Make that 3 in a row....
Four.
SALfan edblysard Make that 3 in a row.... Four.
Where's Bucky?
jimnortonWhile I support Amtrak I have given up and being a part of any expansion. Anbody else?
A really good question to ask!
My take is that we have to be very careful what we advocate - and have to be careful to define what winning looks like. Otherwise, we'll just be modern day Don Quixotes.
Do the majority of people want it?
Do they know what it will cost and cost to run?
Do they care enough to do anything about it?
Do governments at all levels have any inclination to fund any real work (or is the state DOT just throwing study money to their buddies in the consulting business)?
If you can get a solid "yes" to all these, then it's probably worth pushing for.
If you live in VA, NC, MI, IL, CA, you have a shot. Elsewhere, it's Don Quixoteville.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Hey, if you don't like a thread, go post on your Eleanor thread. You may get away with your and the others' personal vendettas against Jim Norton now and others, like Euclid earlier, but it is noticed and will be met. You want to continue your merry ways, but perhaps you need a dose of your own disruption?
oltmannd jimnorton While I support Amtrak I have given up and being a part of any expansion. Anbody else? A really good question to ask! My take is that we have to be very careful what we advocate - and have to be careful to define what winning looks like. Otherwise, we'll just be modern day Don Quixotes. Do the majority of people want it? Do they know what it will cost and cost to run? Do they care enough to do anything about it? Do governments at all levels have any inclination to fund any real work (or is the state DOT just throwing study money to their buddies in the consulting business)? If you can get a solid "yes" to all these, then it's probably worth pushing for. If you live in VA, NC, MI, IL, CA, you have a shot. Elsewhere, it's Don Quixoteville.
jimnorton While I support Amtrak I have given up and being a part of any expansion. Anbody else?
Perhaps you should add #4. You need good media contacts in order to publicize your plans and bring that vision to the public. In a state like TN, it has been so long since most of the state has seen passenger service, most folks there have never seen one.
"In a state like TN, it has been so long since most of the state has seen passenger service, most folks there have never seen one."
Are you just guessing? Do you think they as citizens are ignorant? Or is it you want them to be ignorant because it is your paradigm?
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