Riddle

[Anonymous]

What is the difference between here and there? If you "look" at the question you will see there is a "t" in front of here" which makes it "there."

[Overmod]

Is this one of those riddles like "Kenneth, what is the frequency?" Or the one with the answer "No soap radio?"

And no, I don't see the fnords...

[zardoz]

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

[zardoz]

Are you now, or have you ever been?

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

Zardoz - you will be a big hit with the driver! When I first met him, that was one of the things he always said. Drove me nuts! (short trip, I guess!)

Mook

[Overmod]

But Mookie, do you know the answer? (Yes, there is one...)

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Overmod

But Mookie, do you know the answer? (Yes, there is one...)

He won't tell me! He just smiles and says nothing! Even when I guessed that there would be no sound - he just smiled. So frustrating!

[Overmod]

Does he know about the "right answer" to a koan? (Or why the answer is the way it is?)

The key to this one is to look at what it means -- not what it says. That's more than just semantics. Hint: don't assume that reality is defined by the terms you use to describe it...

[Mookie]

Ok - now you are starting to sound like the Driver! And I definitely won't let him near this puter or I will never get it back. But I will print it out and show it to him and watch him smile once again! Stay Tooned!

[Overmod]

Here's the short course on enlightenment for you:

You need to remember the basic tenets of Buddhism, one of which boils down to 'ignore aspects of reality that cause you pain to think about.' One part of 'enlightenment' is to come to the understanding that things don't change just because you can give them a name... or even comprehend what they are, or what they do. (More familiar example: the God of the Old Testament...)

I used to teach this in Sunday School -- ask any group of enthusiastic trying-hard-to-be-Christians this question. The very first thing everyone tries to do is wrong! They figure it's like school questions, where the answer is some kind of restatement or parallel -- "What's the sound of a bell?" -- Ding, clang, whooooOOOOOnnnnnnggggg, etc.

This isn't like that. It's an exercise in frustration precisely because you can't get a physical clap without two hands. That does NOT mean you can't have "the sound of one hand clapping", though -- note that I just wrote it down. What it DOES mean is that any attempt to translate "the sound of one hand clapping" to another noun is wrong.

The right answer is "The sound of one hand clapping is the sound of one hand clapping." It is what it is -- naming it or understanding it doesn't change anything... let it be. You have accepted it for whatever it is, and allowed it to be whatever it is, etc. etc. etc.

If anybody complains that this is no proper answer... get THEM to give you a better one, and prove it. If they are intelligent, it shuts them right up, if they aren't... well, you find that out right away, too ;-}

Note that you have to change your understanding of the world, language, and semantics to arrive at this answer. THAT is the point of the question, and of a koan in general: the actual "answer" is of minimal utility. (This is also why so many Zen sayings don't make much sense... parables too...)

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Overmod

Here's the short course on enlightenment for you:

You need to remember the basic tenets of Buddhism, one of which boils down to 'ignore aspects of reality that cause you pain to think about.' One part of 'enlightenment' is to come to the understanding that things don't change just because you can give them a name... or even comprehend what they are, or what they do. (More familiar example: the God of the Old Testament...)

I used to teach this in Sunday School -- ask any group of enthusiastic trying-hard-to-be-Christians this question. The very first thing everyone tries to do is wrong! They figure it's like school questions, where the answer is some kind of restatement or parallel -- "What's the sound of a bell?" -- Ding, clang, whooooOOOOOnnnnnnggggg, etc.

This isn't like that. It's an exercise in frustration precisely because you can't get a physical clap without two hands. That does NOT mean you can't have "the sound of one hand clapping", though -- note that I just wrote it down. What it DOES mean is that any attempt to translate "the sound of one hand clapping" to another noun is wrong.

The right answer is "The sound of one hand clapping is the sound of one hand clapping." It is what it is -- naming it or understanding it doesn't change anything... let it be. You have accepted it for whatever it is, and allowed it to be whatever it is, etc. etc. etc.

If anybody complains that this is no proper answer... get THEM to give you a better one, and prove it. If they are intelligent, it shuts them right up, if they aren't... well, you find that out right away, too ;-}

Note that you have to change your understanding of the world, language, and semantics to arrive at this answer. THAT is the point of the question, and of a koan in general: the actual "answer" is of minimal utility. (This is also why so many Zen sayings don't make much sense... parables too...)

So in a nutshell Master Overmod, you are saying that he is not ready yet to be a Jedi Knight.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by Overmod

Here's the short course on enlightenment for you:

You need to remember the basic tenets of Buddhism, one of which boils down to 'ignore aspects of reality that cause you pain to think about.' One part of 'enlightenment' is to come to the understanding that things don't change just because you can give them a name... or even comprehend what they are, or what they do. (More familiar example: the God of the Old Testament...)

I used to teach this in Sunday School -- ask any group of enthusiastic trying-hard-to-be-Christians this question. The very first thing everyone tries to do is wrong! They figure it's like school questions, where the answer is some kind of restatement or parallel -- "What's the sound of a bell?" -- Ding, clang, whooooOOOOOnnnnnnggggg, etc.

This isn't like that. It's an exercise in frustration precisely because you can't get a physical clap without two hands. That does NOT mean you can't have "the sound of one hand clapping", though -- note that I just wrote it down. What it DOES mean is that any attempt to translate "the sound of one hand clapping" to another noun is wrong.

The right answer is "The sound of one hand clapping is the sound of one hand clapping." It is what it is -- naming it or understanding it doesn't change anything... let it be. You have accepted it for whatever it is, and allowed it to be whatever it is, etc. etc. etc.

If anybody complains that this is no proper answer... get THEM to give you a better one, and prove it. If they are intelligent, it shuts them right up, if they aren't... well, you find that out right away, too ;-}

Note that you have to change your understanding of the world, language, and semantics to arrive at this answer. THAT is the point of the question, and of a koan in general: the actual "answer" is of minimal utility. (This is also why so many Zen sayings don't make much sense... parables too...)

So in a nutshell Master Overmod, you are saying that he is not ready yet to be a Jedi Knight.

NO! Too old! Too old to begin the training!

[Anonymous]

ahh these are all along the lines of the late philosopher Wittgenstein. What's the difference between here and there, nothing except the way we use it. To say 'it is neither here nor there" or "It is here" both are equally descriiptive. I could talk longer at this but I'm off to class.
Andrew

[dharmon]

In the immortal words of Buckaroo Banzai..."Wherever you go, there you are"

[Overmod]

The farce is strong in this one, young Jedi...

As wisdom fertilizes knowledge, so the odor of enlightenment spreadeth until the whole lump is known to be leavened... or something like that.

See also Bishop Berkeley on how what we know influences what is from a different perspective. (Was he an influence on Marxist Leninism? Inquiring minds could have some fun with this...)

And remember, kiddies, you can't spell "Om Mani Padme Hum" without OM. Line for enlightenment forms on the left this time.

[dharmon]

Cool...

I'd like to be enlightened by about twenty pounds.

[Overmod]

OK, start like this. Stand up straight... as straight as you can.

Lift your shoulders straight UP as far as you can.
Move your shoulders BACK as far as you can, comfortably
Move your shoulders DOWN from that position, keeping them back, as far as you can (again, comfortably.

Pretend you have a couple of loops sewn on your pants, and make like you're pulling your arms straight down by your little fingers tugging on the loops.

You're now in the ideal position to do exercise walking with proper posture (you swing from the waist in this position and your upper body muscles do a lot of appropriate moving). You want a good brisk walking speed -- go at least 15 to 20 minutes, and ideally more than about 45 minutes (there are valid biological reasons for the times, but I won't spew them, thank me later). Best time to do this is early in the morning, BEFORE you eat breakfast... end about 30 minutes before, if you can. Better still if you can do some walking like this (no more than 10-15 additional minutes will get the effects) before lunch, supper, or other meals, too.

[Anonymous]

MAN WHO THROWS DIRT LOOSES GROUND
-Kevinius XXVI

I like that one

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

In the immortal words of Buckaroo Banzai..."Wherever you go, there you are"

Ok - printed this out and read it to the driver on the way home. He smiled through all of it and when I got to Buckaroo Banzai - he laughed outloud! Something about a car and if.....I didn't get any of it - made no sense as usual when we have these out of body experiences from the past! But he seemed to know exactly who you were talking about! But then he is ex-California, too!

Moo

[zardoz]

Overmod-

That was one of the best, easiest to understand, and concise explanations of a Koan that I have ever seen.

As for the rest of you philosophers........nicely done!


Now, for the other one...."Are you now, or have you ever been?

[Anonymous]

You are only NOW because there is no future nor no past, there is only the present. Since time is only spatial in relation to us. Time in measured in the distance the earth travels around the sun. So therefore if everything slowed down so would our time but we would never know the difference. let me show you some thought expirements G.W. Leibniz gave to Clarke a friend and follower of Newton.

The spinning Bucket thought experiment.
Does it make a difference if a bucket is spinning if there is nothing to compare it too?

Temporal Freeze T. E.
If time was frozen for a year, could we know that time stopped or would it change anything. Wouldit imply that no time passed at all.

Nocturnal Doubling. T.E.
Is it possible that everything doubled and we wouldn't know it. (of course to answer this you must deal with the notion of infinty)

Overmod- I'm reading berkeley right now. Very interesting. I'm a studying philosopher and my goal is to be able to teach it at college level while still being able to write my own philosophy. I've started my own theory of knowledge and when It's down I'll hopefully post it on the web. If anyone would like to read it just let me know
Andrew

[Overmod]

With respect to "Are you now or have you ever been"

1) Yes, but things have changed. My eyes are open now

2) Trumbo

3) See http://www.latw.org/acrobat/areyounow.pdf for manual

4) communist? no. Retrosexual? perhaps. Technolicious? definitely.

[espeefoamer]

Who's on first?

[Overmod]

I don't know... --THIRD BASE!!!!

[Anonymous]

What....Second base!!!!

[Anonymous]

How far can you run into a forest?

[athelney]

Everybody has to be somewhere !

[Anonymous]

OK- very enlightening! Try this one...
You're in a SD70M in 'modified' notch 47 travelling at the speed of light (CWR,of course!) and you turn on your ditch lights---Can you see them??
And will the Darwinite that just ran around the crossing gates see them also??

[shrek623]

What if C-A-T really spelled DOG!!!!

Shrek

[Overmod]

George745 -- halfway

toyomantrains -- a) no, of course not, they're on the front of the locomotive where you couldn't see them no matter how much Lorentz-Fitzgerald contraction you had. b) it's highly unlikely he'll see the light from your ditch lights, as the frequency spectrum will be blue-shifted way the hell up out of the visible range. (He might see your train-radio transmissions, though, if your amplifier is good enough ;-})

Shrek -- I'd get a Cummins instead.