NS1001Got the 2014 Trains Locomotive annual today and was shocked to read that EMD (now owned by Caterpillar) will not be making any 2015 or 2016 Diesel road locomotives for sale in this country except passenger locomotives built by Progressive (another Caterpillar holding) using a Caterpillar prime mover. The reason being that Tier 4 diesel emissions standard go into effect in 2015. The rumors are that EMD tried to tweak their 710 engine (around since GP60/SD60 days) to meet Tier 4 but the fuel consumption became too high. In 2017 they are supposed to have a new 4 cycle prime mover based on the failed 4 cycle used in the SD90. Is Caterpillar serious about staying in the market? By the way GE already is producing a Tier 4 loco. To add insult to injury it is also the 75th anniversary of the EMD FT freight demo which eventually doomed steam.
Keep in mind that much of the R&D on the now failed exhaust gas circulation system EMD was developing for the 710 (which as far as I've been able to gather is unreliable and wouldn't meet emissions regs, fuel consumption increase or not) was done under the previous ownership (Greenbriar). I haven't seen anything that would indicate that a 265H derived engine is going to be the solution though I wouldn't rule it out.
The rest of Caterpillar's Tier IV offerings(for construction and industrial equipment but also for the new commuter locomotives) all use SCR/Urea and maybe Cat thought the freight railroads would accept that technology.....
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
Assuming they don't have an evolution of the 710 powerplants in development, sad to see the end of the line for an engine that can trace its heritage back to the days of Winton before the 567. And it wasn't even obsolescence that did it in. Until today, I really thought they'd make it work.
I don't like the sounds of them blaming GM and then Greenbriar/Berkshire for their present mess. While they've only been in control for 4 years so there's surely a lot of truth there, it sounds too much like Alco suddenly blaming the WPB many years after WWII for their woes.
They need answers, not excuses.
EMD published this 'news' several months ago.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
EMD indeed announced a while back the delay in locomotive production.
But what Trains posted in the newswire today is the first actual confirmation I've seen that they've ceased trying to make the 710 Tier 4 compliant. Despite the widespread speculation of that happening, supported by this gap in production, that was still the news with that story, as far as I'm concerned.
I guess EMD's next generation tier-4 locomotive will be a CAT-powered SD100ACe:)
Note that EMD will still be busy building export locomotives in the next two years. They're not going away.
Haven't heard confirmation on a 265-derived engine solution, though it is certainly possible. GE went that route.
This is the first time that I've heard that the GE TIER IV series were fully successful, we've been hearing of glitches and failures ever since testing began. GE appears very confident, though.
They're not going away, but disappearing from your main market for such a length of time is sadly a good way to start.
They will also still be marketing their Eco repowering solutions, engaging in rebuild programs of past products, building orders for North American customers outside of America, working on their next generation high speed passenger locomotive, etc.
I'm surprised to read today that BNSF changed their P4 order that was switched to P6's a while back, back once again to P4's. Seems a strange decision on their part since these will be orphans, and they very well might not be interested in SDXXACe-P4's when it hopefully launches someday with EMD's new engine and Tier 4 solution.
Does anything stop US roads like KCS from having a Mexican or Canadian affiliate purchase non Tier 4 compliant power and using that power system-wide? If so, perhaps we will be seeing some skirting of the rules in the future before the regulators address the loophole.
Leo_AmesDoes anything stop US roads like KCS from having a Mexican or Canadian affiliate purchase non Tier 4 compliant power and using that power system-wide? If so, perhaps we will be seeing some skirting of the rules in the future before the regulators address the loophole.
Some Canadian SD40-2s are banned from US operation due to emissions, IIRC, so I doubt it.
Anyway, Mexican SD70ACe production with the 710 will continue.
How the mighty have fallen! We older folks will remember when EMD sent the last of its competitors, Alco, packing, and former Alco partner GE emerged to offer -- perhaps -- a challenge. GE got a lot of early orders from railroads who just wanted to support another builder to keep EMD honest.
Sounds like they might need somebody else now to help them leverage GE. Hard to believe someone won't emerge, railroad business being what it is.
I thought the biggest driver of the Cat purchase of EMD was that EMD had the answers to Tier IV. Obviously, if that was the reason, they were wrong.
I think the biggest driver was that it was a foothold in a large market for big diesel engines that they had been trying to break into for many years.
Here is a snip from an article in TRAINSNewswire of this date (09/24/2014) by way of a part explanation:
FTA [snip]:"...At a separate briefing with Progress Rail, Ainsworth says the reason the company will not be ready to offer a Tier 4 unit in 2015 is a result of a lack of investment by EMD’s former parent company, General Motors, and its subsequent ownership under a private equity group. “EMD has been really the technology leader for over 90 years and suffered from under-investment in the last 10 years when General Motors and then investment firm” owned the company, he says..." [snip]
GE doesn't actually have a Tier 4 locomotive ready yet, the demo units haven't successfully completed the required cycle times (or whatever it is to achieve Tier 4 compliance) and GE hasn't gotten certification yet. Both builders may not be building locomotives in 2015....
ML
samfp1943NS1001Got the 2014 Trains Locomotive annual today and was shocked to read that EMD (now owned by Caterpillar) will not be making any 2015 or 2016 Diesel road locomotives for sale in this country except passenger locomotives built by Progressive (another Caterpillar holding) using a Caterpillar prime mover. The reason being that Tier 4 diesel emissions standard go into effect in 2015. The rumors are that EMD tried to tweak their 710 engine (around since GP60/SD60 days) to meet Tier 4 but the fuel consumption became too high. In 2017 they are supposed to have a new 4 cycle prime mover based on the failed 4 cycle used in the SD90. Is Caterpillar serious about staying in the market? By the way GE already is producing a Tier 4 loco. To add insult to injury it is also the 75th anniversary of the EMD FT freight demo which eventually doomed steam. Here is a snip from an article in TRAINSNewswire of this date (09/24/2014) by way of a part explanation: FTA [snip]:"...At a separate briefing with Progress Rail, Ainsworth says the reason the company will not be ready to offer a Tier 4 unit in 2015 is a result of a lack of investment by EMD’s former parent company, General Motors, and its subsequent ownership under a private equity group. “EMD has been really the technology leader for over 90 years and suffered from under-investment in the last 10 years when General Motors and then investment firm” owned the company, he says..." [snip]
It is sad to see that the EPA is really messing up the locomotive builders. The worse part is that rail is more environmentally friendly than trucking, and the tier 3 locomotives are still more efficant than the older units RRs will have to run to meet power requirements. Not to mention that the RRs are in a power shortage. I would be surprised if this make some RR pull out some more of the older locomotives that will cause more pollution than if the SD70ACe was still being built in 2015. The government needs to stop messing around with these things that harm the RRs and their customers which serve a majority of the population.
Kyle It is sad to see that the EPA is really messing up the locomotive builders. The worse part is that rail is more environmentally friendly than trucking, and the tier 3 locomotives are still more efficant than the older units RRs will have to run to meet power requirements. Not to mention that the RRs are in a power shortage. I would be surprised if this make some RR pull out some more of the older locomotives that will cause more pollution than if the SD70ACe was still being built in 2015. The government needs to stop messing around with these things that harm the RRs and their customers which serve a majority of the population.
I never thought that clean air harmed railroads and their customers. I do know that dirty air does not do any favors to your respiratory system.
CSSHEGEWISCH Kyle It is sad to see that the EPA is really messing up the locomotive builders. The worse part is that rail is more environmentally friendly than trucking, and the tier 3 locomotives are still more efficant than the older units RRs will have to run to meet power requirements. Not to mention that the RRs are in a power shortage. I would be surprised if this make some RR pull out some more of the older locomotives that will cause more pollution than if the SD70ACe was still being built in 2015. The government needs to stop messing around with these things that harm the RRs and their customers which serve a majority of the population. I never thought that clean air harmed railroads and their customers. I do know that dirty air does not do any favors to your respiratory system.
The EPS should give EMD and GE time to perfect their Tier IV locomotives before saying only they can be build. In the meantime the Tier III emissions locomotves should be allowed to be built. GE has a Tier IV locomotive, but like all new engines, it will have teathing problems that need to be worked out. EMD is behindthe curve, but I am sure they are working hard on a Tier IV engine.
GDRMCo GE doesn't actually have a Tier 4 locomotive ready yet, the demo units haven't successfully completed the required cycle times (or whatever it is to achieve Tier 4 compliance) and GE hasn't gotten certification yet. Both builders may not be building locomotives in 2015....
I bet there are managers at Progress/Electromotive hoping and praying that GE runs into a technical wall with their EGR system and winds up offering an SCR based Tier IV compliant emissions control system on their locomotives....
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