Two UP trains on the diamonds as I started this post but a few minutes ago an eastbound BNSF unit train passed. The power went by before I got the window open but I'm wondering what the train was carrying. I first thought iron ore or taconite pellets as all of the cars were high-sided gondolas that looked to be loaded about halfway to the top sills. Then I think I saw black tarpaulins covering the load. Anybody know what was in these gons?
ChuckAllen, TX
tree68But, failing an outside over-ride (ie, PTC), it's still the human element in control. And there was a collision there a couple of years ago. I forget the details.
Rail grinder versus stack train; grinder on UP westbound and stack train on BNSF. Several containers opened prematurely.
MrLynnThen, are there fail-safe devices in case an engineer misses the first or second signal?
The major failsafe is that signals are designed to fail to "stop," and dark signals also mean "stop."
I think the UP (former CNW) line has some sort of cab signalling - Carl would know.
But, failing an outside over-ride (ie, PTC), it's still the human element in control. And there was a collision there a couple of years ago. I forget the details.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68. . . The activation point has to be far enough out that a train can be safely stopped before hitting the diamond under most circumstances. That's dependent on the max speeds on the lines. Even if it did happen, it's possible that the circuitry has some feature that will assign the crossing, rather like when two people show up at a four-way stop at the same time. Knowing which line gets the nod in the case of simultaneos trips is something that a signal maintainer familiar with the crossing would have to tell. Again, the chances are so small that it may not even be part of the planning...
Even if it did happen, it's possible that the circuitry has some feature that will assign the crossing, rather like when two people show up at a four-way stop at the same time.
Knowing which line gets the nod in the case of simultaneos trips is something that a signal maintainer familiar with the crossing would have to tell. Again, the chances are so small that it may not even be part of the planning...
Not to belabor the point, but I think it would have to be "part of the planning." Even if the system were sensitive enough to decide based on a 10th or 100th of a second, you have to allow for the possibility of arrivals the system interprets as simultaneous, remote though it may be.
Then, are there fail-safe devices in case an engineer misses the first or second signal? No PTC yet that would shut down the locomotive, right? I'm looking at these long unit oil trains, and just imagining what a nightmare a collision at the diamond would be.
/Mr Lynn
MrLynnYeah, but what happens when trains from each line arrive simultaneously?
As Dennis points out, the chances of hitting the circuit exactly simultaneously are infinitesimally small. And that nanosecond basically makes the difference.
And the crews aren't going to know, anyhow, I would opine. They just take what they get. The activation point has to be far enough out that a train can be safely stopped before hitting the diamond under most circumstances. That's dependent on the max speeds on the lines.
"I know that on the westward approach, their distant signal is right in town.." I'll bet there's a signal near Flagg. In the case of BNSF from the east, there is a signal about 3/4 eastward on approach. There is another NW of Steward or a couple miles SE of Rochelle. If I were to bet, that is the trigger for approach to the diamonds.
"---but what happens when trains from each line arrive simultaneously?"--They don't. If one arrives 1/1000th of a second earlier, it is still first. Or a millionth.
In the most recent UP timetable I have (current as of a couple of years ago), the crossing is not shown as a Control Point. The dispatcher can't control anything here, though he obviously knows why you can't get the signal in most cases.And just getting a lineup at the distant signal doesn't mean you'll be cleared to cross. Once your speed drops below 25 mph anywhere in the four or five miles of the diamonds, you have to proceed prepared to stop at the diamond. If it's clear when you're 600 feet away, you're good to go. What this tells me is that you might have gotten a lineup at the crossing, but you have to use it or you could lose it.BNSF's rules may be different. I know that on the westward approach, their distant signal is right in town, much closer to the diamonds than UP's is (the westward approach signal for UP is also the home signal of the Dement control point, about two miles away).
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
tree68 Norm48327 My understanding is that it's automatic and works on a first come-first served basis.
Norm48327 My understanding is that it's automatic and works on a first come-first served basis.
Norm48327My understanding is that it's automatic and works on a first come-first served basis.
That's my understanding as well, and it's been opined here in the past that sometimes one or the other railroad will "fleet" movements over the diamond, in both directions, in order to hold "possession."
From the webcam page, if you click on "Learn about Rochelle Railroad Park" you will see the following information:
"Both lines are under Centralized Traffic Control,
or “CTC,” controlled by UP dispatchers in Omaha,
Neb., and BNSF dispatchers in Fort Worth, Texas.
Until 1965, the crossing was controlled by an operator
in an interlocking tower. Today the crossing is an
“automatic” interlocking, meaning it is “first-come,
first-served” for the right-of-way for any approaching
train, regardless of railroad or direction."
Enjoy!
Jim in Costa Rica
Modeling freelance Northern California late 1930s
Normally - any location that has Absolute Signals is considered at Control Point, even if the Dispatcher or Control Operator has no direct control of the point. If the signal at such a point cannot be cleared to display a indication better than Stop. Trains must have the Dispatchers authority to pass said Stop signal. At a railroad crossings at grade, there are additional actions trains must take after getting the Dispatchers authority - these actions are normally listed in the Special Instructions of the Employee TimeTable.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
My understanding is that it's automatic and works on a first come-first served basis.
OTOH, I've been wrong before.
Norm
BaltACD Probably has been asked and answered before, but I not digging through all the pages - Is the crossing Automatic or Controled by either BNSF or UP?
Probably has been asked and answered before, but I not digging through all the pages -
Is the crossing Automatic or Controled by either BNSF or UP?
If the time difference was around 5 minutes then the eastbound probably came out of Global III (which is primarily an intermodal yard but also handles light repairs and 1000 mile air brake tests for all kinds of trains). There is just one switch (Often called CPY076 on the radio) from the east end of Global III and it only connects with the track nearest to the park (Track 2). As you indicated, to get to the customary eastbound track (No. 1) such trains go the crossovers at Dement (CPY073) about 2 miles to the east of the diamonds (Called CPY075 or, more often, "the BN" by UP Crews.
The next place west that an east bound can cross from No. 1 to No. 2 track is at a west connection to Global III (CPY078) inadition to the connection from the yard to Track 2 there is a single crossover to Track 1. Also two yard tracks continue west about two miles to a final conncetion to track 2 only (CPY080). The next double set of crossovers is at Ashton (CPY083)
A better appreciation of the track layout can be gathered from the Chicago Railfan site http://www.chicagorailfan.com/rfttupg.html. Of course this is not authoritative but seems to be generally accurate.
CShaveRR Speed limit across the diamonds is 35 mph for both railroads.
Also, there is a crossover three miles west of the diamonds where eastbound trains can go from north to south track (and thus be on what would normally be the westbound track). There is another crossover about the same distance east of the diamonds where eastbound trains can go from the south to the north track, which probably happens to any trains coming east out of Global III.
MrLynnThat 'near meet' sounds almost scary!
The same thing occurred to me. Assume that my "less than 5 minues" was really a full 5 minutes (it might have been more). Using Chuck Cobleigh's info that the speed limit is 35 mph and the first crossover is 3 miles west, that would mean both trains would need 1.75 minutes to travel between the diamonds and the crossover. That's 3.5 minutes of travel time and only 1.5 minutes between trains at the crossover!
It must have been more than 5 minutes.
CShaveRRSpeed limit across the diamonds is 35 mph for both railroads.
Yes, Chuck, that was certainly well done. I wonder: can anyone familiar with the operation there tell us what the speed limit is there, and just how far it is to the next crossover (is it at the entrance to the intermodal yard?).
Such meets are always welcomed by everybody concerned, no matter what types of trains are involved.
Johnny
Came to this site a while ago and got lost in the thread about Lucius Beebe. My original reason for coming here though was to describe what had to have been a near-perfect running meet.
I've always understood "running meet" to mean one in which neither opposing train has to stop. And the less either has to slow down, the better the dispatcher's timing was in setting up the meet.
This one had to be near perfect. First, a westbound UP train of empty hoppers went though on the near track at a little better speed than usual. In less than 5 minutes, an eastbound UP train of covered hoppers (grain?) came through, also on the near track, at what was probably track speed. I don't know where the crossover is that cleared the eastbound but it could not possibly have been stopped, waiting for the westbound to clear, and then accelerated to track speed in that short interval.
Somebody did a nice job!
ChuckCobleigh Saw something kind of humorous this afternoon on the cam. An eastbourn BNSF grain train passed through (oddly with one unit on the front and two on the back) and as soon as the trailing engines cleared, three or four squirrels came onto the tracks looking for food. I'm not sure if they actually recognized that it was a grain train, but I would not rule it out. They were pretty easy to pick out with snow otherwise up to the railheads. After a minute or two, they retreated to the yard to the left of the tracks.
Saw something kind of humorous this afternoon on the cam. An eastbourn BNSF grain train passed through (oddly with one unit on the front and two on the back) and as soon as the trailing engines cleared, three or four squirrels came onto the tracks looking for food. I'm not sure if they actually recognized that it was a grain train, but I would not rule it out. They were pretty easy to pick out with snow otherwise up to the railheads. After a minute or two, they retreated to the yard to the left of the tracks.
Squirrels around my house prefer my telephone wire and my cable TV for their food sources. Squirrels have damaged both in the last 4 months.
Saw something kind of humorous this afternoon on the cam. An eastbound BNSF grain train passed through (oddly with one unit on the front and two on the back) and as soon as the trailing engines cleared, three or four squirrels came onto the tracks looking for food. I'm not sure if they actually recognized that it was a grain train, but I would not rule it out. They were pretty easy to pick out with snow otherwise up to the railheads. After a minute or two, they retreated to the yard to the left of the tracks.
Congratulations on the improved webcam for Rochelle. It is indeed my favorite site, even though I’m about 150 miles south of the town. All the more to take a day trip and visit. However, before you updated the website a couple months ago, I had no problem accessing it on my iPod (iOS 7) and even pushing it through the AppleTV onto my wide-screen TV in the living room. (Ah, to watch the trains go by in the comfort of a recliner!) However, with the recent reconfiguration of the website, plus the upgrade to iOS 8.1, it is now impossible for me to access the webcam on a mobile device. All I get is a very large black box and nothing more. I have no problem with the site on my iMac (using Firefox). Is there a problem, or is it simply programming? I would like to again enjoy viewing the trains in the comfort of the living room recliner; it’s not fun sitting back in a computer task chair watching the trains roll by!! Many thanks and respect for your hard efforts and achievements!
tree68but the bulk of the containers were red K-Line boxes.
I see that on UP once in a while, like the BNSF trains coming through with a hundred or more J.B Hunt boxes.
MrLynn Re left-running, etc.: I figured there must be a yard or some other jam-up on the UP heading toward and from the Clinton direction. Again, a map of the tracks in the area around the diamonds would really help visualize what we're seeing and your explanation (could be added to the web page—Kalmbach is really good at maps). I guess I could find a map somewhere, but most don't show rail lines in any detail.
Re left-running, etc.: I figured there must be a yard or some other jam-up on the UP heading toward and from the Clinton direction. Again, a map of the tracks in the area around the diamonds would really help visualize what we're seeing and your explanation (could be added to the web page—Kalmbach is really good at maps). I guess I could find a map somewhere, but most don't show rail lines in any detail.
Your right! If you go to Google Earth and look at the satelite photos, you will see that their is a large intermodel yard just west of the diamonds on the UP line. That would explain the slow speeds and stoping that frequently happens. Also their is a siding to a large industry that way. The link on the webcam page that says "Learn more about the Rochelle Railroad park" has a small map that identifies the industry as Del Monte.
I would like lights too. Watching the webcam at night is like watching submarine races! Maybe a large parking lot style light at the tip of the park would give us enough light to at least get a glimpse of the trains. Or some ground level floods pointing up at the cars (the way they light some trees at night) would work. As for disturbing the neighbors, I can't imagine it would be any worse than having trains (with crossing whistles) rolling by every 15 mins!
MrLynn - That probably was the Nickel Plate heritage unit you saw. I got lucky as it was just coming into view when I logged on to the camera. One more reason to watch the cam more.
Tom
Pittsburgh, PA
I CAN SEE! (Apologies to Mel Brooks...)
Just stopped in so check the cam (something I rarely do in the morning). Heard a horn, so stuck around for a few to watch.
The first three quarters of the eastbound UP train could have been a commercial for K-Line. There were a couple dozen other containers scattered through the train (the last quarter of the train was a mix), but the bulk of the containers were red K-Line boxes.
Interesting.
I don't often check the cam during daylight (I'm doing other stuff...), so I don't know if such a consist is common or not.
cefinkjr Norm48327 If you like my snow, you may keep my snow. Uh, no thanks. I had had enough snow (in Western PA) by the time I was 15 to last the rest of my life. Snow is one of the biggest reasons I'm now living happily in Texas. The attitude of Texans toward snow (and our more frequent ice storms) is: "God put it there; let God worry about it. I'm staying home by the fire." Suits me to a T.
Norm48327 If you like my snow, you may keep my snow.
Uh, no thanks. I had had enough snow (in Western PA) by the time I was 15 to last the rest of my life. Snow is one of the biggest reasons I'm now living happily in Texas.
The attitude of Texans toward snow (and our more frequent ice storms) is: "God put it there; let God worry about it. I'm staying home by the fire." Suits me to a T.
As yes, "T for Texas" (Jimmie Rodgers).
I'd like to be there tomorrow. They say we're going to get 8-10" of pre-Thanksgiving snow. I just fired up the snowblower to make sure it's ready.
/Mr Lynn (Framingham, MA, CSX land)
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