i asked a police officer about this very idea. His amused answer: "Pure vandalism. You get arrested and probably have to make restitution, too. Don't take the law into your own hands."
OJLARThese people don't think of what would happen if it were their property that was being defaced.
I remember another graffiti related trains.com thread in 2007 or 2008, a proponent claimed that his peeps wouldn't tag somebody else's property because they all knew each other, and besides they NEVER tagged private homes or churches, only businesses, because they were exploiting everybody anyway.
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
YoHo1975 Euclid tree68As much as some would like the railroads (and car owners) to be saying "graffiti is bad and we must eradicate all evidence of it at the earliest opportunity," it ain't happenin'. The railroads (and car owners) have more important things to spend their money on. I think it is just the opposite. I think the railroads and car owners do believe that graffiti is an important problem, and are willing to spend money fixing it if they can figure out a way to do that. It is most of the fans that are saying that graffiti is not a problem, using every contortion possible. By insisting that graffiti is not a problem, the fans are defending the railroads for their failure to fight graffiti. I expect that we will soon see the launching of a major effort to eradicate the train graffiti problem. I am not sure what that effort will comprise, but it will be something “outside the box.” I think the railroads could hire an independent contract security service to target graffiti as it happens. The service would learn where graffiti is likely to happen, and patrol those areas. Pay them by the arrest, and they will end the problem in short order, and at a reasonable cost. If the Railroads aren't even willing to paint the cars to keep up their image...in the first place, why in the world would anyone expect them to do something about the graffiti. From a branding perspective, both are a blight.
Euclid tree68As much as some would like the railroads (and car owners) to be saying "graffiti is bad and we must eradicate all evidence of it at the earliest opportunity," it ain't happenin'. The railroads (and car owners) have more important things to spend their money on. I think it is just the opposite. I think the railroads and car owners do believe that graffiti is an important problem, and are willing to spend money fixing it if they can figure out a way to do that. It is most of the fans that are saying that graffiti is not a problem, using every contortion possible. By insisting that graffiti is not a problem, the fans are defending the railroads for their failure to fight graffiti. I expect that we will soon see the launching of a major effort to eradicate the train graffiti problem. I am not sure what that effort will comprise, but it will be something “outside the box.” I think the railroads could hire an independent contract security service to target graffiti as it happens. The service would learn where graffiti is likely to happen, and patrol those areas. Pay them by the arrest, and they will end the problem in short order, and at a reasonable cost.
tree68As much as some would like the railroads (and car owners) to be saying "graffiti is bad and we must eradicate all evidence of it at the earliest opportunity," it ain't happenin'. The railroads (and car owners) have more important things to spend their money on.
I think it is just the opposite. I think the railroads and car owners do believe that graffiti is an important problem, and are willing to spend money fixing it if they can figure out a way to do that. It is most of the fans that are saying that graffiti is not a problem, using every contortion possible. By insisting that graffiti is not a problem, the fans are defending the railroads for their failure to fight graffiti.
I expect that we will soon see the launching of a major effort to eradicate the train graffiti problem. I am not sure what that effort will comprise, but it will be something “outside the box.” I think the railroads could hire an independent contract security service to target graffiti as it happens. The service would learn where graffiti is likely to happen, and patrol those areas. Pay them by the arrest, and they will end the problem in short order, and at a reasonable cost.
If the Railroads aren't even willing to paint the cars to keep up their image...in the first place, why in the world would anyone expect them to do something about the graffiti. From a branding perspective, both are a blight.
Both may be blight, but graffiti is a far worse blight than just a faded paint job. If you google “train graffiti” and look at the images search, there are endless photos where the graffiti look just runs on and on. And it certainly does have a look. It is a sort of garishness or gaudiness that comes out of a spray can and shouts for attention.
It is interesting to look the photos of tagged boxcars where the tagging is all along the lower 3-4 feet of the car side. Above that level is just the faded paint of the car untouched by graffiti. I find that my eyes accept the weathered Tuscan brown look of the car side with no graffiti. It is a natural looking as a desert rock scape. But the graffiti is hideous to look at. If I shift my eyes back and forth, the difference in visual emotion is amazing.
In an effort to establish the viewpoint of the railroads regarding graffiti I dug up some old correspondence. I will post a few excerpts separately.
Number One: Going way back with Wisconsin Central
From: J. Reilly McCarren, President and Chief Executive Officer
Quote:
"..........At Wisconsin Central, we do make a practice of periodically shopping defaced equipment. It is an expensive repair. We typically lose use of the car for three days or so. In addition, due to the natural fading of the original paint, we end up with a less than perfect appearance.
We are also testing new coatings designed to defeat the spray paint typically used by vandals. While expensive in initial application, they may prove more cost effective on a life-cycle basis.
As far as the other railroads, I can't speak for their approach to restoring the appearance of their equipment. Historically, we've been more particular than many of the larger roads."
End quote.
Jim Norton
Huntsville, AL
Number two: Union Pacific
From: Robert W. Turner, Senior Vice President - Corporate Relations
"........I agree that cars covered with graffiti can become "rolling eyesores" and I want to assure you, that despite the appearance of these cars, we are making a concentrated effort to reduce and eliminate graffiti on our railcars.
The Union Pacific Police are very active, and we arrest several people a day for defacing our property. We have increased the security in our rail yards, which helps to keep vandals away from our equipment. We do press charges when we arrest someone."
Number three: Kansas City Southern
From: J.E. Foster, Assitant Chief Mechanical Officer
"........KCS shares your endeavor, as this is an ever growing problem for all railroads, and we are doing everything we can do to police and prevent this type of vandalism. We encourage your help as a concerned citizen to report this and any other types of vandalism to the proper authorities."
Number four: Norfolk Southern
From: Richard W. Harris, Director Corporate Communications
"......We care about the appearance of our car fleet and the impression it gives our customers and general public. I appreciate your suggestions to help clean up our cars. In our safety and security efforts, we work hard to prevent trespassers from ever entering our property, thereby minimizing opportunities for mischief such as graffiti and other vandalism."
Number five: CSX
From: Ed Cobb, Vice President Risk Management
"......We are doing what we can to stop the graffiti generated on CSXT property and know that other railroads are doing the same on their property. We will continue to do so in the hope that as we capture more of the perpetrators that others will be dissuaded from attempting the same act. We hope that we can reduce the graffiti you see on our freight cars as they pass through Alabama in the future."
Number Six: Union Pacific
From: Rex C. Vorrahme, Senior Business Director - Food and Refrigerated Products
"......It is very unfortunate that these cars are targets for graffiti. We very much appreciate your concern and are actually working on some of the items mentioned in your letter to try and remedy the situation. Thank you for your support of the railroad business - the industry needs people such as yourself."
End Quote
Deleted.
Norm
Jim Norton,
The series of quotes that you posted above is very interesting. There seems to be a sharp distinction between the view of those rail executives and most of the railfans/railroaders on this thread who tell us what the railroads think of graffiti. Here we are told that railroad companies think that graffiti is not worth fighting, does not interfere with train performance, can’t be prevented, is only a nuisance, and does not hurt the corporate image.
Look up the term *lip service*
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
jimnorton Number five: CSX From: Ed Cobb, Vice President Risk Management Quote: "......We are doing what we can to stop the graffiti generated on CSXT property and know that other railroads are doing the same on their property. We will continue to do so in the hope that as we capture more of the perpetrators that others will be dissuaded from attempting the same act. We hope that we can reduce the graffiti you see on our freight cars as they pass through Alabama in the future." End quote.
jimnorton Number two: Union Pacific From: Robert W. Turner, Senior Vice President - Corporate Relations Quote: "........I agree that cars covered with graffiti can become "rolling eyesores" and I want to assure you, that despite the appearance of these cars, we are making a concentrated effort to reduce and eliminate graffiti on our railcars. The Union Pacific Police are very active, and we arrest several people a day for defacing our property. We have increased the security in our rail yards, which helps to keep vandals away from our equipment. We do press charges when we arrest someone." End quote.
jimnorton In an effort to establish the viewpoint of the railroads regarding graffiti I dug up some old correspondence. I will post a few excerpts separately. Number One: Going way back with Wisconsin Central From: J. Reilly McCarren, President and Chief Executive Officer Quote: "..........At Wisconsin Central, we do make a practice of periodically shopping defaced equipment. It is an expensive repair. We typically lose use of the car for three days or so. In addition, due to the natural fading of the original paint, we end up with a less than perfect appearance. We are also testing new coatings designed to defeat the spray paint typically used by vandals. While expensive in initial application, they may prove more cost effective on a life-cycle basis. As far as the other railroads, I can't speak for their approach to restoring the appearance of their equipment. Historically, we've been more particular than many of the larger roads." End quote.
Union Pacific arrests "several" people daily - on a 31,800 rail network in 23 states.
WC points out that it is an expensive repair - including the loss of revenue for at least three days. And on top of that , I would take from their statement "In addition, due to the natural fading of the original paint, we end up with a less than perfect appearance." that they don't repaint the entire car - only the portions affected by graffiti. That leads - as several here have already pointed out - to a cure that's almost as bad as the disease.
In addition, several of the railroads pointed out that they do what they can to combat graffiti on their property. Fred's Feed Mill over in Podunk isn't on RR property, and Fred doesn't really care what the car looks like coming in or going out, as long as the product isn't tampered with.
I don't believe that anyone here has said that graffiti is not an issue.
What has been said is that graffiti isn't as much of an issue to the railroads as some here would appear to want it to be.
Yes, but....
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I am sure everyone would agree that train graffiti is prolific. It leads to the question of why the industry is not overcoming the problem. A large percentage of comments in this thread express the idea that the reason the industry is not overcoming the problem is that the industry believes that graffiti is not a problem.
Then Jim Norton posts a series of comments by railroad executive indicating that they are fighting graffiti by removing it, preventing it, arresting perpetrators, etc. That seems to directly refute the common belief in this thread that the industry does not care about graffiti because it is not a problem.
So I have no idea what point Murphy Siding is making by highlighting in red several snippets from the railroad executive quotes. I also have no idea what point Tree68 is making in reference to those series of railroad executive quotes. I can’t tell whether the comments of these two posters are agreeing with something or disagreeing with it.
My prediction is that the railroad/car owner industry is going to act soon to wipe out graffiti. This will invalidate the conclusion widely expressed in this thread that the industry does not consider graffiti to be a problem; a conclusion based on the fact that a lot of graffiti is being produced and hauled around. I think that apparent laxness is simply the reaction time for the industry to ramp up and solve the problem.
I believe the point of Murphy's post was the railroads are doing what they can to prevent it where they can; i.e yards. They obviously can't cover all track all the time.
Right, the points of the highlights was to illustrate that those letters were saying EXACTLY THE SAME THING AS MOST PEOPLE IN THIS THREAD.
Nobody to my knowledge has flippantly suggested that the railroads simply don't care. Only that they don't care AS MUCH as the OP or certain others.
We have also suggested that they care only in so far as it's financially reasonable and within their ability to care. Within their yards for example on their owned cars only, And of course, those letters pointed out that even an aggressive solution as WC had costs real money. 3 days of dead time for the car and the results are not at all perfect.
Of course, Wisconsin Central isn't a going concern any more, so their policies mean nothing.
I read those letters and I see a PR guy writing to assuage a fan with boilerplate messaging. deflecting concerns and expressing solidarity, but I see little in the way of aggressive action and actions speak louder than words.
If most of the faded and old scheme cars were universally red primer colored, I MIGHT agree that it is still preferable in a meaningful way, but they aren't They are multicolor patchwork of rust, dirt and multple faded paint schemes. In my estimation no better visually than the graffiti.
I don't approve of the illegal and dangerous nature of railcar graffiti, but at least the more colorful designs represent some form of artistic intent. The railroads themselves aren't protecting a brand with most of these cars.
Further, I'd stipulate that the railroads are far more aggressive with the unit train fleet. The cars that really do carry a brand image. Those are the cars that get washed and repainted. The box car fleet is where the Graffiti problem is and the box car fleet clearly is getting the least attention regardless of defacement.
3 days is exceedingly generous. There is normally a 2-5 day trip to get to the paint shop, a couple days to couple months queue into the paint shop, the actual 3 days to paint the car, then the 2-5 day trip back to wherever the car is needed to load. The car can be out of the revenue stream for one or more loadings.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Euclid My prediction is that the railroad/car owner industry is going to act soon to wipe out graffiti. This will invalidate the conclusion widely expressed in this thread that the industry does not consider graffiti to be a problem; a conclusion based on the fact that a lot of graffiti is being produced and hauled around. I think that apparent laxness is simply the reaction time for the industry to ramp up and solve the problem.
Euclid I predict that when the dust all settles, oil by rail will be handled in highly specialized trains that will be a departure from conventional interchangeable, loose-car railroading. These trains will have ECP brakes, specialized couplers without slack and no draft gear. They will also have single control, pneumatically powered brake locks to secure the train with all brakes set fully and mechanically locked in the set condition. If they retain hand brakes, the hand brakes will not be used for securement. The brakes will be locked into full set, and no push-pull test will be needed to verify the securement.
Yes, both are my predictions.
This entire thread has become the graffiti we are complaining about - as each poster leaves their tag!
Off to the shop track!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Euclid Yes, both are my predictions.
Sure you didn't mean speculations?
tree68 I don't believe that anyone here has said that graffiti is not an issue. What has been said is that graffiti isn't as much of an issue to the railroads as some here would appear to want it to be.
Amen.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
I predict that the graffiti problem will be given priority and funding commensurate to the level of importance given it by those who control the finance of a railroad business. That level would be relative to how much graffiti mitigation adds to the bottom line- $0. I also predict that railroads will continue to employ people whose job it is to write concerned sounding letters back to folks who tend to start letters "As a concerned railfan, who is dropping hints that I want you to believe I'm also a stockholder, I am outraged! Simply outraged! at the amount of blah blah blah..."Long and short of it: Railroads have been giving it the amount of attention THEY feel it warrants, relative to everything else going on in THEIR business. That might not live up to everybody's standards, but...Those that matter don't care, and those that care don't matter.
BaltACD This entire thread has become the graffiti we are complaining about - as each poster leaves their tag! Off to the shop track!
Norm48327 I believe the point of Murphy's post was the railroads are doing what they can to prevent it where they can; i.e yards. They obviously can't cover all track all the time.
And mine as well.
And I'm basically agreeing with the rail executives letters (undoubtedly written by their PR departments) in that they do what they can to cover the graffiti, even if the results are cosmetically almost worse than the graffiti in the first place.
As well as the point (very important) that graffiti removal doesn't help the bottom line - it costs the railroad money, with virtually no return on investment.
In a fantasy world, we could make graffiti go away virtually overnight. In the meantime, UP is arresting "several" of the thousands of taggers each day... Odds are they get a slap on the hand and they're back tagging the next day. New graffiti-resistant finishes will be fine until the taggers find a new way defeat them.
In the meantime, I'm going to wish that I win the lottery. I think my odds are better.
No, seriously, I don’t understand why the put up with all that rust, and the dings and dents I see in cars sides, not to mention the dirt on the cars.
After all, for brand protection and duty to the community, they should have a mobile shop popping those dings out, and painting that rust…and really, how hard would it be to install a drive through train wash on all the main lines?
Think of it, an engineer pulls up, swipes his company credit card, and pulls through the wash….heck, they can even hot wax em too, that way the entire train is sparkly shiny clean for all of our viewing pleasure.
It’s their corporate duty to give us shiny clean trains!
23 17 46 11
Ed,
And then the company will have to provide boxes of "sure stick" gloves to reduce the probability that someone slips off a grab iron and hits his head on the equipment in the adjacent track or even the rail.
Mac McCulloch
of the Ilk
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