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trainman50If there is two crews. on a train now how many hours before they make another crew change. Say a intermodol or a oil train left bellvue oh going to la.?
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Those crews are only allowed to work on territory they know and have qualified to work on. Off their territory, they need a pilot (Like for a detour move).
Yes, as was sung in The Music Man, "You gotta know the territory!"
Johnny
I believe the concept of "tag team" crews has been broached in the past. The main problem is that the locomotives don't have appropriate rest facilities for the off duty crew. The practice is used in the trucking industry (often by husband and wife teams), but the 'campers' on many of those trucks are pretty decent accomodations, for what they are.
I doubt the railroads would be willing to re-introduce cabeese as crew rest cars, or adding "dorms" to locomotives.
Obviously the territory issue also factors in - the idea of a crew being qualified to take, say the "salad shooter" all the way from the west coast to Schenectady, or even over just the length of the route covered by one railroad, would mean a lot of learning, and probably a rather restrictive pool of qualified personnel.
The territory issue isn't an issue for truckers.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68I believe the concept of "tag team" crews has been broached in the past. The main problem is that the locomotives don't have appropriate rest facilities for the off duty crew.
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BigJim tree68I believe the concept of "tag team" crews has been broached in the past. The main problem is that the locomotives don't have appropriate rest facilities for the off duty crew. But, back across the pond on the LNER, the practice was used on non-stop trains between London and Edinburgh. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corridor_tender#Locomotives_.28corridor_tenders.29
At substantial cost, only justified by the bragging rights for no stops, and quickly abandoned once that somewhat synthetic requirement was no longer required. And that was on a passenger train, with something on the 'back end' of the corridor with accommodations for the off-duty crewmen provided at comparatively low marginal cost.
There, as here: why pay two crews (even if one is only receiving 'deadhead' negotiated wage) when the alternative (recrewing at known stopping points, transport via outsourced van rides, etc.) works out to be cheaper?
The sensible place for a crew dorm hasn't changed, although the name of the machine it rides on has changed over the years (from MATE to 'road slug'). Enough space for any desired level of comfort or convenience, and it's relatively easy to do the isolated-cab treatment to make it quiet enough for sleep. The concerns lie decidedly elsewhere from technical practicability -- the unions, the Government, and to a lesser extent the finance people would have to agree to make the idea workable, and one of the things going out the window (and I, for one, wouldn't miss it) is the idea of calling a crew for the next particular train, rather than reserving crews for particular train 'voyages' with regard to routes and endpoints, rather than have them work out and back from a particular location.
It would be an interesting thing to hear union representatives tell under what conditions, and on what terms, and with what restrictions on types of train or route, they might support a 'voyage' model of crewing... and what economic concessions they might be prepared to make to be "competitive" with team drivers. In my opinion it would have to be restricted to key types of train -- fast intermodals between established endpoints, running on a defined schedule, or oil/ethanol trains running in 'fleeted' service also between known endpoints but on a more variable timing, being the two classes of train I see potentially benefiting from the idea without causing hardship for the crews involved.
dehusman trainman50If there is two crews. on a train now how many hours before they make another crew change. Say a intermodol or a oil train left bellvue oh going to la.? Crew changes are set places. A UP train going west out of Chicago changes crews at Clinton, Boone, Fremont, North Platte, etc. The crews have a maximum of 12 hours to work. There is only one working crew on a train at a time. When a train gets to Clinton the Chicago crew gets off and a new crew gets on. When the train gets to Boone the Clinton crew gets off and new crew gets on. When the train gets to Fremont, the Boone crew gets off and a new crew gets on, etc.
I resemble (part) of those remarks.
Once, some years back, when they did a test train for the UPS "bullet" train (that they didn't run in this area) they took a Clinton long pool crew to Chicago and had them ride the test train. IIRC, they had a passenger car out of the business car fleet for use as a crew dormitory. At Clinton, even though the crew was already on the train, they stopped and the Clinton crew went forward to the engines and the Chicago crew went back to the dormitory car. At Missouri Valley, where the long pool changes out, the Clinton crew tied up for rest and the Chicago crew was transported back to Chicago.
It was only done on this test run and I don't think it was meant to indicate that they were going to do this in actual service. They ran one test train in each direction and I don't remember if the eastward train had the Chicago crew on board at Missouri Valley. It seems like it didn't, but it's been quite a few years since this happened.
Jeff
How about swapping crews mid-district and getting everyone back to their home terminal every night?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
csx wanted to do a one crew turn(q500/501) from garrett to lima but too many factors got in the way.Csx has crew districts from chicago-garrett and garrett-willard. They are also using up long pool crews(chicago-willard) for trains.So they are running out of crews.
stay safe
Joe
Deshler Ohio-crossroads of the B&O Matt eats your fries.YUM! Clinton st viaduct undefeated against too tall trucks!!!(voted to be called the "Clinton St. can opener").
oltmannd How about swapping crews mid-district and getting everyone back to their home terminal every night?
That is done, but I don't know that it's common practice with the Class 1's...
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Amtrak forbids operating crews from riding west (as passengers) to meet the eastbound train. Their justification is that they want the eastbound crew to get their paperwork at the crew change point and be ready to take over. For example, crew members that live in the Minneapolis - St. Paul, MN area have to drive to St. Cloud to take over the eastbound train. They cannot ride the west bound and get off at St. Cloud. The crews drive to St. Cloud and then take the train to the Winona, MN crew change and get off and rest and then take the next day's train north (west) to get their cars in St. Cloud. Crews put lots of miles driving to their jobs.
Its very popular with the CN but not so popular with the other class ones. It only works if you have trains meeting on a regular basis near the midpoint of the runs and can afford to stop them to change crews.
FEC does the mid-point crew change back home swap on a aggregate train, it was in Trains magazine a few years ago, both crews get home but still claim a full run.
Most local union contracts would not allow this, but if I remember, FEC is an open shop.
On a few union roads, it is allowed, but only under certain conditions.
As for a second crew riding in a “sleeper” of some sorts, the national contract will forbid this, it requires and defines a rest period and not performing service to the carrier, and riding in a sleeper, even off duty, is not “rest” as defined.
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edblysard FEC does the mid-point crew change back home swap on a aggregate train, it was in Trains magazine a few years ago, both crews get home but still claim a full run. Most local union contracts would not allow this, but if I remember, FEC is an open shop. On a few union roads, it is allowed, but only under certain conditions. As for a second crew riding in a “sleeper” of some sorts, the national contract will forbid this, it requires and defines a rest period and not performing service to the carrier, and riding in a sleeper, even off duty, is not “rest” as defined.
and if it is after the 'off duty time' it counts as 'Limbo Time'. Current HOS law allows 30 Hours of Limbo Time per month.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Ed,
I have occasionally seen crew swaps on CN here in Michigan. Not frequent, but it does happen.
Norm
I have seen a crew exchange on passenger trains.
In February of 1971, I was riding the St. Petersburg of the City of Miami from St. Petersburg to Jacksonville and on to Birmingham. We stopped just outside Jacksonville to meet the St. Pete section of the South Wind (which was running very late)--and the engine crews exchanged trains, with the men who had just come out of Jacksonville going back home, and the men who had come from St. Petersburg going back home.
No bearing on the thread: On the same trip, I had gone to Naples and back on the Naples section of the Champion; because of the length of the trip from/to Lakeland, there was no fireman. The engineer, in talking with me before we left Naples, told me he was not highly in favor of the work arrangement
Exchanging trains is fine, that would be up to each of the local union agreements, which can be modified by the local members as they see fit.
Most locals don’t really like the idea unless there is monetary benefit to the members, such as a guaranteed mileage or hour’s agreement, some form of arbitrary or perk.
Doubt you will see the sleeper concept here in the US unless there is a major re-write to the national contract that redefines rest, and offers a big bonus for the crews.
Amtraks agreement is a little different, as the "train crew", porters, car attendents and such, are not T&E employees, but the engine crew and the host road or train conductor are.
The “train crew” works under one agreement with Amtrak, the engineer and the conductor work under the national contract, which is why there are crew changes for them, but the “train crew” can and often does ride the whole way.
There can be two, or more “conductors” for an Amtrak train, the conductor that is in charge of the passengers and their service, and the conductor in charge of the train, both will work under different agreements.
dehusman Its very popular with the CN but not so popular with the other class ones. It only works if you have trains meeting on a regular basis near the midpoint of the runs and can afford to stop them to change crews.
Interesting! and good point about needing the traffic density. If ever there was a win-win, the midpoint crew swap is it. It would be hard to coordinate, but why should "hard" be a reason not to make it work?
And, CN has lowest OR of all...coincidence?
oltmannd Interesting! and good point about needing the traffic density. If ever there was a win-win, the midpoint crew swap is it. It would be hard to coordinate, but why should "hard" be a reason not to make it work? And, CN has lowest OR of all...coincidence?
Hi All
As was pointed out, CN does this well I believe.
Example:
On the North Line between Prince George and Prince Rupert, about 25-30 years ago CN built a really nice crew dorm at Endako, BC which was the crew change point on the line. It's located between the Nechako and Endako Subs.
That crew dorm is now 'dormant' as the EB and WB crews now swap at Endako and return to their respective home terminals.
I believe it is CN's 'scheduled railroading' practice that makes this possible.
Charlie
Chilliwack, BC
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