These days its impossible to discuss funding of Amtrak and Light Rail without getting into politcs since most large new projects have public funding. Which in this current climate you have the Libertarians who were at the edge now front and center with Rand and Ron Paul, Democrats who want to please the international community with agenda 21 and reduce greenhouse gases by spending $$$$$, Moderate Republicans who now finally believe in rail but in only in the most dense citys and not at the cillost of highways.
But what has changed is that some railfans still believe that a rail system could be 100% private funded and operated without any subsidy and we can keep poltics out of it. Has not been that way since the streetcar wars in the early 1900s with Thom L Johnson and Detroit takig over there streetcar system, How much Gov. is too much is the debate that Libertariians and the tea party are bringing to the table? What changed that public projects could be privately financed like Ambassador Bridge and Grand Central Station?
No politics is the rule - I believe you'll find it in the terms of service.
That said, it is possible to discuss government activities without becoming political. It's when one starts naming names and political parties that the problems come.
Suggesting that a public/private venture could be successful, or that perhaps the government should be taking responsibility (or shouldn't) for such and such a project isn't really political. It's a general position, without specific targets.
On the other hand, saying that such and such a project might work out if those danged Whigs and certain other political figures weren't stonewalling it does venture into area best left untouched.
It can get a little gray if it's obvious that even an oblique reference is being made specifically to a person or party - and if it sounds a little gray, it's probably best not said.
We get into some "interesting" discussions here without getting into politics. Adding politics can really make things messy.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Well, I think it's almost impossible to discuss things like Amtrak, high-speed rail, transit, light rail, or anything involving government without politics creeping into the discussion.
I think as long as you keep it respectful and don't turn into a werewolf over the subject, politics DOES cook people's brains you know, it's probably OK. Just leave out the name calling and respect others opinions that are honestly held.
Remember, this is "General Discussion." It could easily turn into "General Disgustion."
There's some news sites I go to that I don't even think of commenting on. The discussions always seem to sink to the level of "You suck!", "No, YOU suck!"
Why waste my time?
The problem with the introduction of politics into these threads too often it becomes personal attacks and name calling. If not, it becomes a quiet deadlock or merry go round with no progress because the politics becomes the focus of the discussion.
But, unfortunately, politics have so much to do with transportation and industry in the US and world wide, that it has to be injected in order to tell the whole story and to explain the facts. There is a hair sized wire we must walk when we discuss trains, railroading, programs, and transportation. Most usually do walk that micro thin line with facts and respect. When it comes to name calling and round robins, it is time to close the thread.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
henry6 The problem with the introduction of politics into these threads too often it becomes personal attacks and name calling. If not, it becomes a quiet deadlock or merry go round with no progress because the politics becomes the focus of the discussion. But, unfortunately, politics have so much to do with transportation and industry in the US and world wide, that it has to be injected in order to tell the whole story and to explain the facts. There is a hair sized wire we must walk when we discuss trains, railroading, programs, and transportation. Most usually do walk that micro thin line with facts and respect. When it comes to name calling and round robins, it is time to close the thread.
I agree. We saw the Atlas Model Railroad forum go away for various reasons, but one was the constant need to break up verbal skirmishes between posters, some political, some personal. I'd hate to have that happen here.
John Timm
The problem that crops up here isn'tso much partisan politics: GOP vs Democratic or progressive vs conservative. IMO, it seems to stem from implicit assumptions made by some of an ideological nature that some position is simply true or better when it may only be a preference. Examples: any regulation is bad; government-owned is superior; free enterprise is always better, etc. The problem is that these are assumed, not stated open for discussion and when someone points that out, the "no politics" card is played against the challenge, leaving the original assumption unchallenged. Even worse is when an accepted scientific or technological/engineering conclusion is questioned or even rejected as though it were merely political.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Firelock76Well, I think it's almost impossible to discuss things like Amtrak, high-speed rail, transit, light rail, or anything involving government without politics creeping into the discussion.
True that. And that is the challenge, as Henry points out.
Still, it's possible to point out the foibles of the politicians (regarding rail) without making it personal. One can opine that Senator Blowhard apparently doesn't understand the topic, or perhaps has taken a certain stance, pro or con, without devolving into "Senator Blowhard is an idiot," or worse.
Of course, even a tactful statement/opinion can turn into "well, you don't know Senator Blowhard like I know Senator Blowhard, and if he wasn't on the take...." You get my drift.
Having called "my" knowledge of Senator Blowhard into question causes "me" to go on the defensive, and things go downhill from there....
Just leave out the name calling and respect others opinions that are honestly held.
I'm on local forum that somehow always manages to turn topics political ("The sky is blue." "Well that how all of you {name your party} seem to look at it, when in reality....).
For some folks, not going off the deep end when someone challenges their beliefs is, well, a real challenge.
But that's another forum.
tree68 Firelock76Well, I think it's almost impossible to discuss things like Amtrak, high-speed rail, transit, light rail, or anything involving government without politics creeping into the discussion. True that. And that is the challenge, as Henry points out. Still, it's possible to point out the foibles of the politicians (regarding rail) without making it personal. One can opine that Senator Blowhard apparently doesn't understand the topic, or perhaps has taken a certain stance, pro or con, without devolving into "Senator Blowhard is an idiot," or worse. Of course, even a tactful statement/opinion can turn into "well, you don't know Senator Blowhard like I know Senator Blowhard, and if he wasn't on the take...." You get my drift. Having called "my" knowledge of Senator Blowhard into question causes "me" to go on the defensive, and things go downhill from there.... Just leave out the name calling and respect others opinions that are honestly held. I'm on local forum that somehow always manages to turn topics political ("The sky is blue." "Well that how all of you {name your party} seem to look at it, when in reality....). For some folks, not going off the deep end when someone challenges their beliefs is, well, a real challenge. But that's another forum.
Note: Polish Falcon:
As you read the above quoted posted by Firelock76, Tree68, and Henry 6 (in Part)
They have offered some very sage advice! Tree said"...Just leave out the name calling and respect others opinions that are honestly held ..."
Not exactly sure how long you monitored these Kalmbach Forums, before joining in the Conversations. They do have rules and, I would suggest that you might check them out...Like the GCOR they have been posted for good reasons....
I do not pretend to have any power or authority here, but I have enjoyed the Conversations for a lot of years around here, and I intend to keep on for more.
PM some of the older members that post here, and you can find tales of ad hominem attacks, individuals who would flame other forum members for virtually any statement either had made if there was disagreement...[Some folks were faster with the Flame Thrower than a Marine at the mouths of Caves on Island in the WWII Pacific.]
Whole Threads were wiped out by the Moderators, People were banned from posting... At times it has been pretty ugly around here.. But fortunately, of late it has been fairly gentlemanly. and respectful of each other . At time Forum Moderation around here seemed to verge on almost full contact sport.
You are correct about railroading and politics being almost an inseparable at about any level, but Firelock said they can be treated respectfully and talked about in a reasonable context.
Enjoy and Welcome.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy SidingFrom the forum polices: . No political discussions or signature messages. We know, railroads are sometimes affected by politics. However, we’ve found that political discussions almost always turn into arguments. We have a common thread of being interested in railroads. Don’t let that common bond be destroyed by political differences. . ...But then, you know this, from the number of times you've been kicked off this forum don't you Polish Falcon?
Firelock76Remember, this is "General Discussion." It could easily turn into "General Disgustion."
I like to think of it as needing to avoid belittlement -- being made smaller, as in reduction to "General Diss'in " on the one hand and "General Cussin' " on the other... And since this is a forum about ideas, love the sinner if you find you must hate the sin.
If one wants to go argying one can go to sites like abovetopsecret and do it there....
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
samfp1943 tree68 Firelock76Well, I think it's almost impossible to discuss things like Amtrak, high-speed rail, transit, light rail, or anything involving government without politics creeping into the discussion. True that. And that is the challenge, as Henry points out. Still, it's possible to point out the foibles of the politicians (regarding rail) without making it personal. One can opine that Senator Blowhard apparently doesn't understand the topic, or perhaps has taken a certain stance, pro or con, without devolving into "Senator Blowhard is an idiot," or worse. Of course, even a tactful statement/opinion can turn into "well, you don't know Senator Blowhard like I know Senator Blowhard, and if he wasn't on the take...." You get my drift. Having called "my" knowledge of Senator Blowhard into question causes "me" to go on the defensive, and things go downhill from there.... Just leave out the name calling and respect others opinions that are honestly held. I'm on local forum that somehow always manages to turn topics political ("The sky is blue." "Well that how all of you {name your party} seem to look at it, when in reality....). For some folks, not going off the deep end when someone challenges their beliefs is, well, a real challenge. But that's another forum. Note: Polish Falcon: As you read the above quoted posted by Firelock76, Tree68, and Henry 6 (in Part) They have offered some very sage advice! Tree said"...Just leave out the name calling and respect others opinions that are honestly held ..." Not exactly sure how long you monitored these Kalmbach Forums, before joining in the Conversations. They do have rules and, I would suggest that you might check them out...Like the GCOR they have been posted for good reasons.... I do not pretend to have any power or authority here, but I have enjoyed the Conversations for a lot of years around here, and I intend to keep on for more. PM some of the older members that post here, and you can find tales of ad hominem attacks, individuals who would flame other forum members for virtually any statement either had made if there was disagreement...[Some folks were faster with the Flame Thrower than a Marine at the mouths of Caves on Island in the WWII Pacific.] Whole Threads were wiped out by the Moderators, People were banned from posting... At times it has been pretty ugly around here.. But fortunately, of late it has been fairly gentlemanly. and respectful of each other . At time Forum Moderation around here seemed to verge on almost full contact sport. You are correct about railroading and politics being almost an inseparable at about any level, but Firelock said they can be treated respectfully and talked about in a reasonable context. Enjoy and Welcome.
I have appreciated the fact that lately there has been little acrimony (I did not say "no acrimony") in the postings. May we keep it so, with even less acrimony.
Johnny
Actually, that was firelock that said that, but I agree with the sentiment. That's why I quoted it.
Funny how for all the tolerance advocated here there has already been accusations made against the OP.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Semper Vaporo Funny how for all the tolerance advocated here there has already been accusations made against the OP.
I didn't see a single accusation, just a statement being presented as a fact - from someone who is in a position to know.
Or, are you just trying to stir the pot?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
The statement presented as a fact is only presumed to be a fact. I recognize the intent of the original post if even only by seeing that he/she/it whut started it has not joined into the discussion after broaching the subject. But there is no proof positive as to who the little birdie is. He/she/it could be a totally innocent person that has noticed something about the forums and commented about it, or the self-same person the assumption points at, attempting to get a rise out of the membership and recognition in his/hers/its own mind. Assuming the accusation is correct, he/she/it has accomplished said recognition and is probably pleased as punch right about now.
Yeah, I should probably have kept my fat hands off'n the keyboard, but it would be better if we could discuss the subject at hand and leave the "assumed" recognition out of it.
As punishment for my taking part in this I am going to go to Elba (in VR) for a self-imposed exile for a while.
Toodles, folks.
Semper VaporoToodles, folks.
Bye.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
A while back the OP posted the following:
The US is backing Svoboda (via Freedom House aka CIA front) which is a ultra nationlist party with neo nazi acting as strongmen, The fight is over should Ukraine be part of the European Union and incur forced debts or be part of the Russian Oligarchy. Russia is understably upset as they would lose Black Sea Bases
http://www.voltairenet.org/article30112.html"
(Schlimm has pointed out that that website is questionable. I left the spelling errors intact).
Now, my great-grandfather was from Uzgorod in Eastern Ukraine, his wife/ my great-grandmother from Slovakia, just next door, and another great-grandmother was from Lithuania, also bordering Ukraine, all occupied by Russia at one time or the other (and yet I am a Russian speaker, go figure). So you could say that I was p*ssed by the common "Ukrainians are Nazis" statement heard in other places recently, and wondered what it was doing here, but I decided to let it slide becasue, frankly, I don't believe anyone here takes the OP seriously. But I will say this: in my opinion the OP goes far beyond a discussion of government and politics that sets the table for a complex discussion of the public benefits and costs associated with railroads.
DwightBranch A while back the OP posted the following: "Polish Falcon The US is backing Svoboda (via Freedom House aka CIA front) which is a ultra nationlist party with neo nazi acting as strongmen, The fight is over should Ukraine be part of the European Union and incur forced debts or be part of the Russian Oligarchy. Russia is understably upset as they would lose Black Sea Bases http://www.voltairenet.org/article30112.html" (Schlimm has pointed out that that website is questionable. I left the spelling errors intact).
And this was what I posted at the time as an indication of the sort of offensive sources the OP uses:
"Full disclosure about the source for the Falcon's claims: The Voltaire Network was especially vocal after the attacks on 9/11, that it was an inside job. In a best-selling book, 9/11, The Big Lie, Thierry Meyssan, president of the network, claimed that the attacks were due to an internal plot within the US administration. The Network broadcast this declaration widely."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKHUGvde7KU
Here I was thinking "Uh-oh, here's trouble!"
THEN I find it's the incomperable Bette Davis in "All About Eve"! Whew!
Murray http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKHUGvde7KU
Where's that old popcorn eater when I need 'im?
Oh, this'll do....
Polish Falcon These days its impossible to discuss funding of Amtrak and Light Rail without getting into politcs since most large new projects have public funding. Which in this current climate you have the Libertarians who were at the edge now front and center with Rand and Ron Paul, Democrats who want to please the international community with agenda 21 and reduce greenhouse gases by spending $$$$$, Moderate Republicans who now finally believe in rail but in only in the most dense citys and not at the cillost of highways. But what has changed is that some railfans still believe that a rail system could be 100% private funded and operated without any subsidy and we can keep poltics out of it. Has not been that way since the streetcar wars in the early 1900s with Thom L Johnson and Detroit takig over there streetcar system, How much Gov. is too much is the debate that Libertariians and the tea party are bringing to the table? What changed that public projects could be privately financed like Ambassador Bridge and Grand Central Station?
First, Grand Central Station refers to either a Post Office or a Subway Station, the first completely funded by Government, and the seond mostly funded by Government. What you refer to is GRAND CENTRAL TERMINAL!!!!!!!!
Seond. I agree that politics that directly bares on railroad service, passenger, freight, railfanning of any time, should be allowed to be discussed on these Forums. I have stong views about "Socialized Medicin" and the Middle East, but I wouldl NOT discuss these views or news related to them on a Kalmbach Forum.
Discussion of political programs and philosophies toward railroads and transportation are inevitable and cannot be dismissed as political. Name calling, snarky and snide comments, and other negative descriptive terms and personal attacks are not acceptable. And I, for one, am one who must be reminded of that at times.
You can blame that old radio show Dave:
"Grand Central Station! Crossroads of a million private lives!"
THAT'S what did it!
PS: Remember "The Witches Tale"? Mom told me all about that one! Said she couldn't sleep after listening to it!
"The trouble with practical jokes is that very often they get elected." --Will Rogers--
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Firelock76"Grand Central Station! Crossroads of a million private lives!"
All aboard for better baking!
(And ... I don't think that was a NYC whistle... )
https://archive.org/details/GrandCS
The previous eidifice on the site was called Grand Central Depot, because two tracks did continue south across 42nd Street and joined the streetcar tracks into what is now called the Park Avenue Vehicular Tunnel that was used by the 4th and Madison conduit electric streetcars untl GM replaced them with buses in December 1935. These connecting tracks did not exist once Grand Central Terminal was built. When the Depot was built, early 1980;s I believe, the New Haven still insisted on using the old Union Temrinal at 4th Avenue and 29th Street, with horses pulling their trains south of 42nd Street, thus the reason for the connecting tracks. So the postcard used the old name, but the official name from the start was Grand Central Terminal. A look at any timetable or OG will show this.
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