http://www.flickr.com/photos/48838227@N02/13256035115/
Just happened to see this while riding along with a co-worker one day recently. I've never heard of or seen anything like it before. As you can see, the lenses are yellow. I haven't seen it operate yet, but I expect that the lights will flash alternately, same as the red ones at the signals right at the grade crossing.
It's needed because the crossing itself is not visible from this point - the crossing is about 100 yds. southwest, further down a fairly steep grade, and around a set of sharp 'S'-curves, as shown in the next 2 photos.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48838227@N02/13256361004/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48838227@N02/13256160053/
The location is Brown['s] Hill Road (T-592), leading to the Alpine Mountain [ ] ski area in the Analomink (or Parkside) area of Paradise Twp., Monroe Co., PA, about 1/4 mile north of SR 191, at about these Lat./ Long. coords.: N 41 6.392' W 75 14.892'
The owner of the track is now the Pennsylvania Northeast Regional Railroad Authority (PNRRA - see http://pnrra.org/ ), formerly the Lackawanna County Rail Authority (LCRA), and the operating railroad is the Delaware-Lackawanna RR (DLRR) - http://www.gvtrail.com/dl.php or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delaware%E2%80%93Lackawanna_Railroad , which comes down this way only 2 -3 times a week, by my hearing and rare observations. The US DOT - FRA - AAR Crossing ID No. is 264-047A, but this additional 'active warning device' does not seem to be shown or reflected in the database listing for the crossing.
- Paul North.
I think advance warning is a great idea, Id like to see it implemented everywhere there are highway speeds above 40 mph. I've just seen too many bad things.....
Randy
I have seen this before with the standard round (RXR) sign with an Amber flashing light that was activated with the grade crossing signals, but never a setup like that.
Thanks for sharing.
Would be curious to know who maintains? (railroad or road agency? ... not exactly common to see WCH mast that far from crossing or in a standard inventory for road agency)
I've never seen it in a railroad context, but it's a fairly common concept for stoplights with limited sight distance. I've seen it in cities and on busy suburban thoroughfares.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 I've never seen it in a railroad context, but it's a fairly common concept for stoplights with limited sight distance. I've seen it in cities and on busy suburban thoroughfares.
To what several others have indicated, this practice of linking an advanced warning sign with an illuminating source, is not generally, done.
It would be speculation, on my part; that the circumstances that brought about those installations, would be reactive in nature to some kind of Highway/Grade Crossing incursions [ series of incidents involving motor vehicles and equipment occupying the tracks, in areas where there is limited sight distances.]
As with automated Crossing protection, there is a process to gain that type of 'active' installation. It has been discussed in this Forum more than once.
A need for an active equipped crossing is initiated by a local political jurisdiction and if authorized by a 'need'. The political jurisdiction advances the funds to purchase the equipment and the railroad installs it; and then maintains it in working order. That process can be very expensive depending on the individual crossings requirement for either rail or automotive protection. In the case of a 'hybrid-type of requirement', There would have to be some kind of specific arrangement for the maintenance of the sign and whose agents responsibility that would be.
Paul North or MC would be better qualified to comment on those aspects.
To one extent or another I've often seen warnings beyond the crossing hardware. Railroad crossing signs form a few hundred fee before to maybe a half mile warnings of the crossing ahead..
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The advance warning flasher is a standard item in the inventory of installations. It is primarily used for limited sight distance crossings. The only reason that it seems unusual is that few crossings require it.
Euclid The advance warning flasher is a standard item in the inventory of installations. It is primarily used for limited sight distance crossings. The only reason that it seems unusual is that few crossings require it.
The question I would be curious to see answered is: Is this rascal tied to the Penna. PUC application/decision that covers the crossing Paul saw it at or is it an unrelated add-on by the road agency. I cannot remember ever seeing mast mounted railroad signal flashers in advance of a crossing with yellow lenses.
Paul_D_North_Jr http://www.flickr.com/photos/48838227@N02/13256035115/ Just happened to see this while riding along with a co-worker one day recently. I've never heard of or seen anything like it before.
Just happened to see this while riding along with a co-worker one day recently. I've never heard of or seen anything like it before.
Is this the MUTCD W10-16 signage that was approved at the Jan 2006 meeting?
There is 'passive' advance signage called for in W10-1,2,3,4, the familiar round black-on-yellow crossbuck plate and other signage warning that a crossing is a specified distance down the road, or hidden by a curve or other obstruction, etc. The addition of signage with lights to show 'active' status is a very good positive touch, especially where high train speeds are involved.
It is in the Nevada thread, but I don’t find the reference there yet to the manual where it is described. I have that here, but I have to find it. Meanwhile, I did find this drawing in the Nevada thread:
http://www.ctre.iastate.edu/educweb/ce353/lec09/tcdh/tcdh31.gif
It is from the FHWA Railroad-Highway Grade Crossing Handbook:
http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/xings/com_roaduser/07010/sec04b.htm
Here is the reference excerpted from that source. The drawing posted above accompanies this text in the manual, but does not paste with the text:
11. Active Advance Warning Sign
The active advance warning sign (AAWS) consists of one or two 12-inch yellow hazard identification beacons mounted above the advance warning sign, as shown in Figure 39. An advisory speed plate sign indicating the safe approach speed also should be posted with the sign.94 The AAWS provides motorists with advance warning that a train is approaching the crossing. The beacons are connected to the railroad track circuitry and activated on the approach of a train. The AAWS should continue to be activated until the crossing signals have been deactivated.
Figure 39. Examples of Active Advance Warning Signs and Cantilevered Active Advance Warning Sign
Source: Railroad-Highway Grade Crossing Handbook, Second Edition. Washington, DC: U.S. Department of Transportation, Federal Highway Administration, 1986.
A train-activated advance warning sign should be considered at locations where the crossing flashing light signals cannot be seen until an approaching motorist has passed the decision point (the distance from the track from which a safe stop can be made). Use of the AAWS may require some modification of the track circuitry. Consideration should be given to providing a back-up source of power in the event of commercial power failure.
AAWS is sometimes supplemented with a message, either active or passive, that indicates the meaning of the device, such as “Train When Flashing.” A passive supplemental message remains constant; an active supplemental message changes when the device is activated by the approach of a train.
To allow the traffic queue at the crossing time to dissipate safely, the advance flashers should continue to operate for a period of time after the active control devices at the crossing deactivate, as determined by an engineering study.
If such an advance device fails, the driver would not be alerted to the activated crossing controls. If there is concern for such failure, some agencies use a passive “Railroad Signal Ahead” sign to provide a full-time warning message. The location of this supplemental advance warning sign is dependent on vehicle speed and the geometric conditions of the roadway.
AAWS should be placed at the location where the advance warning sign would normally be placed. To enhance visibility at crossings with unusual geometry or site conditions, the devices may be cantilevered or installed on both sides of the highway. An engineering study should determine the most appropriate location.
Overmod [snipped - PDN] . . . The addition of signage with lights to show 'active' status is a very good positive touch, especially where high train speeds are involved.
Although I haven't asked yet and have no actual knowledge, I'm inclined to believe that the railroad still maintains this signal. There are power lines and poles between this flasher and the grade crossing ahead, so there are other utilities or agencies there to do that, other than the railroad. Paradise Twp. is a nice 'back-in-the-woods' hunting & fishing township, and I'm aware of only 1 or 2 typical traffic signals it has to maintain - and those might be done by the nearby Mt. Airy Casino anyway; other flashers are probably handled by the schools or churches where they are. I haven't seen the PUC order/ decision yet, but I'll put that on my huge list of "things to do someday".
However, in the U.S. DOT - CROSSING INVENTORY INFORMATION, under Part III: Traffic Control Device Information, Train Activated Devices:, "Other Flashing Lights" are 0, as is "Highway Traffic Signals", and the "Total Number of FL [Flashing Light] Pairs" is 4, same as for most other crossings. So this signal does not appear to have been counted or included there, either.
By the way, the sign message in the FHWA Figures kindly provided above by Euclid is "TRAIN WHEN FLASHING" or "RAILROAD SIGNAL AHEAD", most likely as black letters on a yellow background. However, the signal I found has "TRACKS IN USE" in black letters on a white background above the lights, then "WHEN FLASHING" in black letters on a yellow background below the lights. Also, the FHWA calls for 8" Flashing Yellow Beacons (highway-type, with no 'target'), while the one I found appears to be 10" to 12" diameter (I didn't measure them yet).
Perhaps more to come later if I can find out anything else significant about them.
My gut feeling, the railroad maintains a 'feed' of the track occupancy circuit to a junction point with the governmental agency that maintains the road. I suspect that all the 'advance warning' lights and signs are the responsibility of the road maintenance agency, not the railroad. The railroad has the responsibility for maintaing the actual crossing protection at the crossing and making sure the 'feed' works. The railroad would want nothing to with maintaining any highway signs.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Small town, small railroad getting together to solve a problem... :)
Not quite as cool at the Billups "Death" crossing in Mississippi.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1675680
BaltACD I suspect that all the 'advance warning' lights and signs are the responsibility of the road maintenance agency, not the railroad.
Too, the railroad may have fed the flashing circuit to the advance warning fixture. The proof will come when it's time to replace or otherwise repair the device.
Given the device's apparent age (based on estimates herein), today's policies may not translate to practices in place when the device was originally installed.
There is one here on page 61:
http://www.techtransfer.berkeley.edu/railroad06downloads/nizam_macdonald.pdf
Locally, there are several road crossings that have a 'advance notice' set up for the flasher protected crossings.
The notification, isn't about the railroad crossing per se, but about stopped traffic when the sign's lights are flashing. There are multiple 20 MPH curves between the advance notification sign and the railroad crossing. When the crossing protection is not operating, the advance notice sign is not flashing.
I understand that the so called, “Active Advance Warning Sign” is a necessary feature where there is unusually short sight distance. The reason they are rare is that it is rare to have an unusually short sight distance. The grade crossing handbook says this:
“A train-activated advance warning sign should be considered at locations where the crossing flashing light signals cannot be seen until an approaching motorist has passed the decision point (the distance from the track from which a safe stop can be made).”
I can see where it would also contribute protection to prevent stopped traffic from getting rear-ended.
Euclid There is one here on page 61: http://www.techtransfer.berkeley.edu/railroad06downloads/nizam_macdonald.pdf
Thanks for sharing that.
In Australia, there is a warning of this type on the South West Highway south of Pinjarra in Western Australia. This is the only active advance warning sign for a railway level crossing that I know of in Australia although similar signs are used as advance warning of signalled road junctions.
The sign is a conventional highway warning sign around two metres by one metre, reflective white with black lettering "Caution Railway Crossing Ahead" with two amber flashing lights in the top corners of the sign. While it doesn't look like a railway crossing sign, the message is clear.
The remote sign starts flashing a short time before the main crossing sign to allow approaching traffic to slow in advance of the gates descending. Visibility at the crossing is poor because the area is in a forest with little visibility in either direction.
The Highway is a busy road but not the major road in the area, a road to Interstate Highway standards being located about ten kilometres to the West.
On my first sighting of that sign, it began flashing as I drew level and the crossing lights began flashing as I reached them, having slowed appropriately. As the first at the gates, I jumped out with my camera and photographed a southbound bauxite train hauled by a JT42C, which I was able to follow for a number of following shots.
M636C
Interesting presentation.
It does appear that the one in the original post should have the yellow round (RXR) sign. The addition of pavement markings would be appropiate as well.
Robert
Paul,
Thanks for pointing out the images on page 57. I had overlooked those. It appears that there is generally some variation in the design of Active Advance Warning signs. I think I recall other references to the AAWS, but have not found them. Perhaps there was more elaboration on the purpose. The grade crossing handbook says they are for limited sight distance to the crossing. I think the same rationale might apply to a road with an exceptionally high speed limit, but I am not sure if that is referenced.
The limited sight distance need for AAWS is interesting because, technically, the function would be adequately served by the standard advance warning unilluminated, round, black on yellow, RXR sign. So I wonder how they split hairs over this application in deciding that limited sight requires an AAWS.
In making that decision, they must make a distinction in the need for "active" (signalized) advance warning between cases where you can see the crossing from the advance warning point, and cases where you cannot.
It also raises this question:
Is an active advance warning signal needed in the case of a crossing where the crossing cannot be seen from the advance warning point, and the crossing is “passive” or non-signalized?
By logic, I would say the answer has to be, yes.
More than half of the grade crossing accidents I've been involved in were highway vehicles hitting the side of the train. Most had either gates or flashing lights. The latest one in Hamden Maine derailed the locomotive and cause significant damage to it. The train itself was going less than 10 mph and had the crossing totally occupied, in fact the dump truck driver hit the locomotive and the last car, the remote operator was on the point of the shove and was 8 car lengths from the collision, the locomotive was on the rear. Had the remote operator been in the cab there is little doubt that he would have been severely injured.
There were other vehicles already stopped at the crossing.
No one was killed but that was dumb luck.. I'm all for advance warning devices especially where highway speeds are high and/or there is poor crossing visibility either from curves in the road or a hill that obstructs a good view of the crossing.
And then you have the constant parade of rubber tired nitwits into the stupid zone who ignore advance warning signs:.
http://www.today.com/video/today/54727481?ocid=msnhp&pos=3#54726938
mudchicken And then you have the constant parade of rubber tired nitwits into the stupid zone who ignore advance warning signs:. http://www.today.com/video/today/54727481?ocid=msnhp&pos=3#54726938
Well.. I guess the Darwin awards will be entertaining for years to come...
I made some phone calls this afternoon and was told by a local person and official with actual knowledge of and responsibility for the situation:
I specifically did not ask my source about whether the PA PUC knew about or approved this arrangement (I didn't want to risk embarrassing him, as I think I know the answer - perhaps better to be left wondering than to remove the doubt in the 'wrong' way, in this instance, I suppose).
Agreed - But it is just plain weird to see that particular type of appliance more than 30 feet from the track.
I always thought that this was neat when I first saw it many years ago as a kid. The set of flashers with no sign around the bend. Simple, but seemed effective, I guess. Have to love the protective barriers created out of old rails.
http://goo.gl/maps/TXNzJ
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Given the sight distance around that curve due to the building, that is a very nice touch for safety! The standard placement of the lights would not be visible until near too late to stop even at city street speeds!
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
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